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Why have VW got away with not re-imbursing lost tax over cheated emissions?
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strikeFree Member
Approximately 1.2million VW group vehicles in the UK were covered by the emissions cheat, so that’s 1.2million vehicles with lower VED bands than they should be. This was for vehicles produced from 2008 to 2012 as I recall, and most of those vehicles will still be on the road ie subject to tax. That’s many millions of pounds in taxes lost – especially relevant at a time when the Environment Agency is getting hammered on cuts.
I don’t for a second think that owners should be liable for the missed tax but this was an outright cheat by VW, so why haven’t VW been pursued by the UK government for the lost money in taxes??? On top of VED there’s also London Congestion charges which have been cheated.
All the more galling when VW UK boss Paul Wills had the audacity to tell the Transport Select committee back in February that no customers had been misled and there was nothing wrong with any of their cars….
theredFull MemberOK, I’ll bite but surely this has got to be the worst troll ever.
CO2 emmissions that dictate taxation were not affected. It was NOX emmissions that they cheated on. NOX has no bearing on any tax of any sort in the UK, be it VED or congestion charging.
molgripsFree MemberThered is right. It was NOx cheating that was the problem, which doesn’t affect tax. So nothing to reimburse.
Any customer who actually looked at NOx figures would’ve been misled, but that’s basically no-one. Do you know the NOx emissions of your car without googling?
P-JayFree MemberWhilst they didn’t avoid any Tax their owners, or drivers to be more exact might have – the 2008 to 2012 cars would have been given a Euro Emissions standard which I believe has an impact on Company Car Tax payments – there’s not a chance they would have gone after millions of company car drivers for unpaid tax.
Truthfully though, whilst the Yanks fined them $20bn or something crazy like that (I’ve seen a few figures thrown about) it’s because they’re a European car maker, the EU court didn’t fine them for the same reason. They employ 650k people, mostly in the EU and pay billions a year in tax, another massive fine could sink them, it’s better for the EU to allow them to recover, they’ll make more money in taxes than they would in a massive one-off fine.
It’s worth noting that they’re far from the only car maker to cheat tests, they all do – the difference being that they designed their cars to only cheat during the actual test, the others cheat whenever the car is being driven in a manner similar to the test.
molgripsFree MemberExcept the cars would have been given a better rating than they should have, so you’d end up paying LESS tax than you should have.
I’d keep quiet if I were you!
P-JayFree MemberExcept the cars would have been given a better rating than they should have, so you’d end up paying LESS tax than you should have.
I’d keep quiet if I were you!
Really? I though the lack of Adblue meant they would have been a 4 rather than a 5 and cost more?
strikeFree Member“OK, I’ll bite but surely this has got to be the worst troll ever”
Really? Quite a statement given the content of some of the previous posts on this forum! Or is criticism of the mighty VW on Transportertrackworld not the done thing?!
Ok – so that’s an education for me today that NOX plays no part in VED. However the fact remains that VW lied and have so far appeared not to have suffered any consequences…unlike in the US/California.
P-JayFree Member“OK, I’ll bite but surely this has got to be the worst troll ever”
Really? Quite a statement given the content of some of the previous posts on this forum! Or is criticism of the mighty VW on Transportertrackworld not the done thing?!
Ok – so that’s an education for me today that NOX plays no part in VED. However the fact remains that VW lied and have so far appeared not to have suffered any consequences…unlike in the US/California.
Okay, there’s no sense in getting pissy about it, if you start a thread called “Why have VW got away with not re-imbursing lost tax over cheated emissions?” then expect to be told that no tax was lost.
andytherocketeerFull MemberWhat London Congestion Charges have been cheated?
Checking one random website for Diesel cars with the lowest CO2 g/km rating, there is not one single car on the market that can meet the threshold to qualify for ultra-low emissions threshold. Although one is very close, but for sure, it ain’t a car on sale prior to 2012.
molgripsFree MemberHowever the fact remains that VW lied and have so far appeared not to have suffered any consequences
Their brand has suffered a lot. And they had to spend a lot of money putting it right.
But as I understand it, the US issue is different to the UK issue.
Really? I though the lack of Adblue meant they would have been a 4 rather than a 5 and cost more?
No.. they claimed it was a 5 when it really was a 4 surely?
strikeFree MemberVW took a short term hit on sales (and image) but sales have since recovered so in the mid to longer term, sales/the brand hasn’t suffered plus rightly so VW have had to spend considerable money fixing the issues. However, still no official penalty has been levied against them. For sure all manufacturers cheat to some extent but seemingly VW went above and beyond what anyone else was doing (primarily to crack the US market on diesels). I just find it crazy that in a time of worsening air quality in the UK, a prime offender has just walked away pretty much scott-free…..
pictonroadFull MemberThey haven’t ‘got away’ with it entirely. In the background there is an hard working team pushing along changes in testing and legislation. The fact this is being done out of the public eye and not being a thought fart for politicians seeking headlines is a good thing.
The changes will affect all manufacturers and make the sort of test gaming not worth the gamble.
aracerFree MemberIs it that simple? I thought I’d seen it suggested that the fix (to make the cars legal to sell) made fuel consumption worse, which presumably increases CO2 emissions…
P-JayFree MemberNo.. they claimed it was a 5 when it really was a 4 surely?
I think we both agree, the cheat made it seem better than it was, hence we (company car drivers) should have paid more than we did.
sharkbaitFree MemberI’m not sure I’d class costs of $14.7bn in just one country as getting away with it scot-free.
chrismacFull MemberWhat, under UK law, did they do that was illegal that isnt done by every car manufacturer? Lied about engine performance? They all do that, just look at how they test for MPG.
big_n_daftFree MemberIt’s simple really, Germany vetoed any European financial penalties
The answer is equally simple, Brexit divorce bill = VW UK fine
strikeFree Member$14.7bn fines in another countries coffers…..not even in Europe. To me the excuse “everyone else was doing it” doesn’t wash because primarily VW went beyond the rest in terms of action/scale compared to what other manufacturers were doing.
molgripsFree MemberFor sure all manufacturers cheat to some extent but seemingly VW went above and beyond what anyone else was doing
In the US yes. But not here – apparently lots of manufs were doing similar here.
I think we both agree, the cheat made it seem better than it was, hence we (company car drivers) should have paid more than we did.
Yes, the OP was calling for money back in restitution, whereas it should be the other way round, we should be paying more by his logic.
lucky7500Full MemberIt’s also important to remember that the USA is extremely protectionist when it comes to anything which might challenge the dominance of home grown industries.
DezBFree MemberI got a big ol’ gift of compensation when my VW got “fixed”. Dunno about you.
sharkbaitFree Member$14.7bn fines in another countries coffers…..not even in Europe.
Maybe, but in Europe they have paid $billions in costs of labour, materials, etc in putting the ‘fix’ in place.
You’re saying that it hasn’t cost VW anything when it clearly has…. a lot.strikeFree MemberInteresting about the compensation! I’ve spoken to various owners who have only had the fix applied (not all of them happy with the results) and have been sent on their way. Unlike in the US/Canada where compensation payments to owners VERY good.
If other manufacturers were doing the same then I’m sure it would have been uncovered by now. I know accusations were levelled at one of the Vauxhall diesel engines and at the Renault 1.6 diesel (which has resurfaced again, now against Mercedes as they use the Renault 1.6). As for my logic – in the period when owners didn’t know then VW should foot the bill for any lost state revenues, after all, it’s not the owner’s fault as they never knew did they?
DezBFree MemberInteresting about the compensation!
Yes, a packet of TicTacs and a pen are not to be sniffed at.
strikeFree MemberAnd as for cost to VW – yes it has cost them, but that’s only putting right the immediate issue ie attempting to fix the engines they produced. None of this is going to compensate for the higher NOX levels/air pollution. Yes I know no amount of fine will fix the extra air pollution BUT a fine could at least contribute to future anti-pollution measures – a hefty fine makes a statement and I feel in this case an example should be made of a company who very deliberately flouted the rules way beyond, seemingly, what other car manufacturers were doing.
chestrockwellFull MemberLied about engine performance? They all do that, just look at how they test for MPG.
No they don’t, they publish figures gained by completing the required test. The test may be mince but the published results are not.
As for VW, of course they would get away with it. They have been getting away with charging premium prices for standard cars for years.
CountZeroFull Memberstrike – Member
$14.7bn fines in another countries coffers…..not even in Europe. To me the excuse “everyone else was doing it” doesn’t wash because primarily VW went beyond the rest in terms of action/scale compared to what other manufacturers were doing.No, they didn’t. And it wasn’t just the car industry, the US truck manufacturers were doing similar things, and it’s been going on for years!
jambalayaFree MemberThe appalling virtually non-existant compensation vs that which US owners received tells you who is running regulations at the European Union. Ditto fines.
Also we still don’t know for sure that the “technical adjustment” isn’t causing other problems. Owners have only been offered a token 2 yr warranty.
@chris they didn’t lie about engine performance they included software which deliberately cheated the test by running the car in a unique mode not used at any other time
DracFull MemberVW went beyond the rest in terms of action/scale compared to what other manufacturers were doing.
Others haven’t been caught out.
jambalayaFree MemberOthers haven’t been caught out yet
Switzerland have banned the registration of new Porsche Cayennes. Renauit have a definite problem
andy8442Free MemberAs a slight tangent to this, I have signed up for the law suit against VW. Reason being we have two VW’s and when we come to sell them we will definitely lose out financially as the brand has been sullied. Truth be told I don’t expect to get a penny, but it only took 10 minutes to fill in the form.
fossyFull MemberI demand a rebate, with my petrol….
It won’t happen. Co2 was the measure, not everything that came out the exhaust. We petrol drivers have lost out for years, despite us knowing diesel spewed out soot.
garage-dwellerFull MemberIn response to aracer’s question about worsening economy/CO2 post emissions fix….
There is some evidence of slightly higher fuel consumption found by some independent tests (one of the car mags).
There have been some questions about DPF and EGR life post fix too.
As the owner of a post fix 2.0tdi I have found the economy isn’t much worse in real world terms (all the tests I found were on the 1.6) but it definitely regenerates the dpf a bit more often. I’d wager not much of a CO2 increase on a test cycle, which I understand is a specific mixed use simulation.
The emissions fix trade off was (as I understand it) about soot vs. NOx
Changes to EGR opening have upped the soot level but brought NOx down, hence the questions on DPF and EGR lifespans. The DPF is catching most of that soot on the way out. From driving mine I’d guess some other minor engine management changes too (and the gearbox had a software upgrade at the same time).
In short, while I suspect CO2 is
up a bit I don’t think it follows that it is up by a band changing/ significant amount across the range.There is an argument that individual tax payers should not foot the bill for being mislead at point of acquisition. They are as much victims in this as anyone (well those that bought new or used, pre scandal anyway).
The only way to recover that lost VED would presumably be to levy a fine or similar on VW because AFAIK there isn’t a bit of tax legislation that would allow the Treasury to apply that missed revenue directly against VW.
craigxxlFree MemberUK tax legislation on the emissions was based around the CO2 output. I’d imagine very few people purchased the car on the NOX output so any kind of compensation to the buyers would be a stretch.
VAG cheated the type approval testing for the car to sold in the EU which stipulated amongst over measurements the NOX outputs as per Euro 5. As such the EU should be fining VAG instead of saying it’s up to the individual states to do so. No surprise they haven’t done so as their loyalty is with businesses not the public.jambalayaFree Member@andy good on you, our Government has let us down badly. The company should pay even to the point of bankruptcy. Merkel is full of tough talk but behind the scenes is of course protecting one of Germany’s flagship companies, if it’s main one.
@garage interesting thanks
@craig buyers where most certainly told that diesel was THE best choice for the environment. The government set tax policy to encourage them to buy diesel too.
garage-dwellerFull Memberso any kind of compensation to the buyers would be a stretch.
Depends on long term impacts of the fix and residuals and when bought to me.
I bought mine post scandal. I expect them to deal with any knock on mechanical effects of the fix in the short term because they have applied it and represented to owners that it’s safe for the cars so they’ve agreed to have it done. At this point I say VW need to support any after effects at least for a while.
Residuals are my risk as far as I’m concerned because I bought it knowing the issues it could bring.
If I’d bought a car pre scandal and it was now worth much less then I’d maybe be looking to VW to fill that hole to the extent it caused me actual financial loss.
craigxxlFree MemberThe government may have set a tax policy based on diesel being better for the environment but it was based on CO2 as NOX particles weren’t widely understood. You could argue that the governments did little to have an effective tax policy to protect the environment and should have switched from a purely CO2 based policy to a total emissions one.
Diesels gave been alienated in the last year as their true damage to the environment has been evidenced in new sales. All car manufacturers have been tarred with the same brush so any drop in price on your VAG diesel would need to be above the average for similar brands. The fix is another matter and VAG should compensate or make right those effected and that includes my brothers Octavia which is now virtually unusable and unsellable at the same time.
wobbliscottFree MemberSo this is quite simple. Nobody has lost out. The government hasn’t lost out on lost tax because NOX is not part of the taxation pricing structure, and drivers haven’t lost out because they’ve been paying the right amount of tax based on CO2 emissions.
VW lied. So what. Lying is not against the law. If you suffer a loss as a result of someone lying to you then you’ve got a case for claiming damages or compensation, but since nobody has suffered a loss as a result of VW lying then there is no case to answer.
The only organisation that has a claim here is the organisation that sets the tests and requires them to be adhered to.
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