https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11244147/Have-TV-cameras-in-Parliament-made-political-debate-coarser.html

This is quite an interesting article as are a load more on the subject.

Parliament is now just a soundbite tribal shit show.

Instead of trying to point score so they look good on tv there needs to be reasoned debate.

It’s all so black and white.

There has to be a policy both sides agree on broadly but they wont ever stand up and say so and suggest an amendment. They will stand there and say it’s a load of toss so they get a nice little snippet on the news to look good to the more extreme of their demographic.

I have never defended poor Union practice but its interesting that Germany the most unionised country on the planet does so well.

Yes. Perhaps the union relationship with the government is simply done better. Leading to better outcomes all round.

That and the complete over reaction to everything and anything. I’ve seen Boris called a murderer on my Facey today. He isn’t really, is he?

His refusal to sack Cummings has seriously undermined the lockdown and will undoubtedly result in more infection/deaths.

Johnson must know this but has made the calculation that Cummings is more important to him than the lives of the British people.

Does that constitute murder? Maybe, at the very least it’s manslaughter by gross negligence

Those who bemoan the insults here – have you reported any posts? are there posts you’ve reported that haven’t been acted on?

Binners has half got it.

It’s also because Ed Milliband looks funny eating a bacon sandwich.

Why do people vote Tory?

Because they think it will help them to be one step ahead of the next man.

The Winter of Discontent was the winter of 1978–79 in the United Kingdom, during which there were widespread strikes by public sector trade unions demanding larger pay rises, following the ongoing pay caps of the Labour Party government led by James Callaghan against Trades Union Congress (TUC) opposition to control inflation, during the coldest winter for 16 years.

And gulf war 2 I should have said.

Sorry, yes. I was thinking of the three day week, which occurred under the Heath government. So we can say that industrial unrest and war aren’t something that could reasonably be associated with one particular party.

I’m basically centrist. The actual thing I cannot stand in politics is the childish black and white good guys bad guys pantomime.

This

At the moment I feel lost; there is no one to vote for. Can’t vote Tory at the mo, definitely couldn’t vote Corbyn. The Lib Dems were a waste of space.

What we need is a normal Centrist party. The two main parties have been at the extremes (at least from my point of view). Things may be changing

Because ultimately the majority of people are centrists and when presented with a Tory party that’s actually very right wing but painted by the media as right of centre and a Labour party that was fairly left wing but painted by the media as communist they voted for who they were told to. Even I as a pretty committed socialist realise that people won’t stop voting Tory until there’s a centrist Labour party that will at least do some good rather than no good at all.

Also, apparently Jeremy Corbyn was “dangerous”:

People fail to understand the connections between capital, the state and society. They imagine some sort of greasy pole that you might slide up or down on they do not see (and therefore not understand) that every aspect of our society is divided by class based on the ownership and control of capital and nothing to do with your car, clothes, private schools or how big your debts are.
A failure to understand class leaves people floundering and arguing (well informed by the press) the relative merits of different millionaires in Westminster and ‘politics’ is expected to die off for 5 years between. That creates passivity and that in itself is good for the perpetuation of the system.
Older people might be persuaded that their assets are best protected by the tories in power. The only rapid economic growth in the post-war period was under Labour governments, Tories have always impeded growth. And what savings you might make on the tax, you more than spend on the private provision of goods and services. If you add up all the taxes and the cost of healthcare in the US, they pay more than we do and get less for it but, most importantly, there’s profit involved.
The Tories and New Labour crushed the unions, people grow up without the organisational experience of unions and being accountable (very evident on Labour benches), they lack an alternative perspective on society and so are almost incapable of challenging the tory logic and instead of evidence and arguments they join in the populist campaign hurling insults and name-calling, which are not items for discussion. I remember in the 80s someone scrawling on a ‘help the police’ poster ‘beat yourself up’. Now it could be support Johnson’s and Cummings’ destruction of the welfare state, attack Corbyn! Getting workers to attack socialists shows how supremely successful this system is in producing people who collaborate and connive aggressively in their own oppression.

Those who bemoan the insults here – have you reported any posts? are there posts you’ve reported that haven’t been acted on?

It is considered absolutely fine, and indeed normal, to be as offensive as you want about ‘tories’ or anyone who has voted for the Conservative party on this forum. I have reported posts in the past but gave up when I realised that it is so accepted that the moderators don’t consider it an issue. Visible moderators are posting on this thread, so have clearly read it all, yet all of the abusive posts remain.

As a 12 year old kid in 1984 I vividly remember our next door neighbour being helped up his front path by two of sons with blood streaming from the head wound he had received at the hands of police outside the gates to the steelworks which were the lifeblood of our town.

That’s why I’d never in my life vote Tory.

It’s also why i’d never vote Labour, whose Oxford educated MP who lived 400 miles from his safe constituency sat idly by and let it all happen without a word of protest.

It’s not a binary choice between the two.

Nice to see old school Marxism is not yet dead on this forum

Anyone who can look at the current situation and conclude that we need small government needs their head examined. Seriously. If there’s one thing that an epidemic proves beyond all reasonable doubt, it’s that a well-managed collective response is the only way of dealing with it that doesn’t lead to huge harm.

I am not bemoaning this insults as such just saying i believe that I am not a racist or selfish or what ever else is above and that it was something you will not find me doing in retaliation to another parties supporters,just because we don’t have the same views. I am fairly open to other opinions and if I got it wrong in what I have chosen then I will admit it and can adjust to suit. I think the majority of the Uk have been wronged by both Labour and the Tories so I don’t believe slanging matches at others will help us move on.

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR
Subscriber
To get brexit done

And piss lefties off

A mixture of jingoism & spite it would seem !

tinas, well, that’s the fiscal standpoint, but that’s only one dimension.

“Its the economy stupid”

You’d struggle to find much difference between them on anything else.

Tories believe the NHS would be better funded if the economy was fixed first, Labour believe that by funding the NHS you fix the economy. Substitute NHS for Army, Schools, Police, etc. Just boils down to do you earn the money then spend it, or spend the money as a stimulus. Both agree that an army, schools and health service are useful things.

Immigration/Brexit, the Tory government campaigned for remain, Corbyn was the non committal one on the fence.

Response to COVID-19; I don’t think causing excess deaths is Tory ideology. It’s just exposed a flaw in austerity that not spending money in the present will bite you in the future. If it was something else, like a war with Russia we’d all be moaning that we only had a 15 minute stockpile of ammunition rather than a lack of PEE. Or any other hypothetical disaster. That long-term flaw in the ideology combined with the short term incompetence of decision making by various people in charge, but they could be incompetent regardless of the color of their rosette though. Just as the financial crash showed up some flaws in Labours policies.

As a 12 year old kid in 1984 I vividly remember our next door neighbour being helped up his front path by two of sons with blood streaming from the head wound he had received at the hands of police outside the gates to the steelworks which were the lifeblood of our town.

That’s why I’d never in my life vote Tory.

The past is a different country …….

Do you hold center-left politics responsible for the Russian revolution?

I don’t think causing excess deaths is Tory ideology.

No I’m sure it isn’t. However it is most certainly Tory ideology that the govt should get out of the way and do as little as possible, hence all the inaction through Feb and March when a strong response would have saved tens of thousands of lives and cost far less even in the medium term let alone long run. Basically ideology over-ruling competent governance.

It’s just exposed a flaw

Yeah, I suppose that’s one way of putting it. No surprise that it’s just a flaw as far as you’re concerned.

Part of the problem is our faux ‘elective dictatorship’ style of democracy, which allows a minority of voters to install a majority government with essentially unlimited power. (It’s worth remembering that the majority of voters DID NOT vote for the current shitshow at the last election, yet here we are…)

No I’m sure it isn’t. However it is most certainly Tory ideology that the govt should get out of the way and do as little as possible, hence all the inaction through Feb and March when a strong response would have saved tens of thousands of lives and cost far less even in the medium term let alone long run. Basically ideology over-ruling competent governance.

Hanlon’s Razor.

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

Yeah, I suppose that’s one way of putting it. No surprise that it’s just a flaw as far as you’re concerned.

How am I concerned, please explain my opinion to me?

The only opinion I’ve given in this thread is that making straw men arguments gets you nowhere. If you actually make a modicum of effort to understand the oppositions point of view then you can work at systematically dismantling it based on their priorities, beliefs and ideology,

Telling someone they’re a racist strike breaking miner beating fascist idiot* won’t win you any arguments. Explaining that by investing money in public services you end up paying less tax in the long term because the burden of paying for those services is spread over a larger and better skilled/paid workforce might be more productive?

The Tories and New Labour crushed the unions, people grow up without the organisational experience of unions and being accountable

I think there’s also an element that the unions are no longer ushering labour voters in from the ground up. Your average factory worker today will not have a union rep encouraging them to vote labour (which may be in their best interest) and are thus left to make up their own minds. This will naturally lead to some attrition of the labour vote, and is why some of the traditional ‘heartlands’ are crossing over

The PPE thing is interesting. Obviously the current lot have done a sub-optimal job of buying enough in, but if there had been more NHS funding in the previous 5 years, would there really be more of it around? It seems like the kind of thing that you’d deliberately procure in a just-in-time way, rather than having warehouses full of it. We’d have more doctors, nurses and beds, but I’m not convinced we’d have more PPE?

The past is a different country …….

Yeah, I used to live there and didn’t like it. That’s why I moved

Do you hold center-left politics responsible for the Russian revolution?

Center left?….. Yes.

Russian revolution? ….Not so much.

Scottish revolution? ….I live in hope

‘Old school Marxism’, my ideas are informed by people like Dorling, Wilkinson, Szreter, oddly enough Oxbridge doesn’t have a very strong record for promoting Marxism. I’d interested to find out about the ‘new school Marxism’, pray tell.

BillMC nails it.

Its like a big version of the Free Masons – tin foil hat on.

Actually its about controlling markets and housing is the obvious example followed closely by agricultural land.

As a landlord you need high asset value, high demand, low supply- all kept in place by the UK approach to building houses and the subsequent value of land. This is supported by wealth transer from borrowed public money to fund housing benefits for rents that individuals could not afford even with a proper job. We can fix the UK housing shortage in three years… but the only people who would benefit would be poorand younger people – all the vested interests from landlords to homeowner pensioners would suffer.

None of this is rocket science i am just suprised more people dont get it?

Inflation of market sectors including housing, land (inc agricultural?) driving up the asset value – so in simple maths they are worth more and more investment (borrowing) can be made to gain more wealth transfer from borrowed public money.

Think land banking, agriculture subsidies, help to buy ….. yet no one seems to notice?

Its not been mentioned yet that I can see, so:

There’s a strong correlation between religious affiliation and vote.

Religious Affiliation and Party Choice at the 2017 General Election

TL,DR;

Anglicans: traditionally vote for the Conservative Party (58% Tories, 28% for Labour).
Catholics: traditonally voted Lab, now declining: only 42% voted Lab in 2017 (40% to Cons)

Methodists, Baptists, C of S: Cons.
Other Christian denominations, Labour vs Cons= 42% to 38%.

Muslims mostly Labour, 85%
Jews, mostly Cons 63% (26% saying they voted for Labour).
‘Other religions’ & no religious affiliation: mostly Lab(48%)

Apocryphal maybe but here in Scotland, a straw poll I could run right now would say that those who vote Cons are often strongly Unionist, strongly Cons, anti-independence, strongly Protestant (though non-attending) often support Rangers FC.

The Tories can be a surprisingly broad church.

Some are Libertarians, Labour Policy often relies on lots of rules and regulations to ensure fairness, but to a Libertarian rules are fundamentally unfair. The Tories often promote self-determination. You can see that now in the way that Lock down is being unwound. The Tories talk about the dreaded “Common Sense” – to a Libertarian that’s fine, they’re not by default stupid or reckless. Rather than being told what to do they would prefer to take their own precautions, generally people like that will accept that it was their ‘fault’ if they get sick. The problem of course is that the majority of people, regardless of their political preference are not, if they “follow the rules” and get sick, they will want to blame someone so they want the rules to be completely fool proof.

Greater opportunity, or Greed. Depending on your point of view, I’ve found that many Small Business Owners will often become very ‘Tory’ when they start making a bit of money, Labour governments often bring greater employee rights and protections which are at odds with their ability to make money, they may justify it by saying that it stops them growing and thus employing more people or paying the people they have more.

Traditionalists some people fear change, or genuinely are happiest when the world is most like the (often fictional) way they think it used to be. They’re the Xenophobes, Racists, Homophobes etc, but for different reasons than say a Fascist would be. They don’t hate the people per-se, it seems crazy but I’ve met the most Xenophobic boarding on Racist people who do have Gay People and People from Ethnic Minorities as Friends who they treat differently, but equal (if that makes sense). They make exceptions for their friends because, as they’ve got to known them, they’ve learned they don’t change the world they live in simply by existing.

Tribal Snobs, I can’t find any other way of saying it, I know Tory voters who vote Tory just because they think it makes them look more ‘Middle Class’. They’ll have the placards on their lawn every time there’s an election just because they think it’ll make it look as if they must “have a quid or two”. Ironically, I know they’re often busy, or the queue was too long, or they “couldn’t be bothered because we never win here anyway” when it comes to vote.

It seems like the kind of thing that you’d deliberately procure in a just-in-time way, rather than having warehouses full of it.

There was a review of our response to H1N1 a few years back that essentially said that critical to the fast response to any pandemic is a quick and straight forward supply of PPE and the only way to make sure that happened was to stockpile it. (the Americans came to the same conclusion) Without wishing to make this too political (ho ho), George Osbourne’s austerity plans effectively killed off that recommendation. The situation we find ourselves in now is at least in part because of that decision.

Cant speak for everyone but of those I know my parents have drifted to the right as theyve aged, to the point where my mum now parrots everything she reads in the daily mail

What I find frustrating is that values I clearly remember them teaching me, notably on racism & homophobia- tho on the latter my dad’s always been a bigot tbf- they seem to have forgotten completely

My brother & his wife, Id have to say education is a factor, both didnt do well in school, my sister in law remains one of the most ignorant and selfish people I have ever met, staunchly anit-intellectual, to the point were she ‘doesnt belive in homework’ & my nephew is falling behind massively at school

Im sure I know other Tory voters but theyre shy about it, but these are the ones I know best

I don’t think people voted for a Tory government, they voted for Boris as Prime Minister (or rather to not have Corbyn as Prime Minister and the Tories being perceived as the only other alternative).

I think that our voting system seriously needs to change though. When I vote I for my local MP it should be based on what they’re going to do for the local area and how they’re going to vote in parliament. My vote for my local MP shouldn’t also decide what party runs the government and who the prime minister is going to be.

If I had my way we would vote for our Prime Minister separately to your local MP. Once the prime Minister is elected then they decide who makes up the government, picking from all the MP’s ensuring that the best people get the right jobs.

Ask yourself who did you last vote for and what were the reasons you chose. I ask this to people often and the reasons why are (IMO) quite startling at times.

Another take on it is this.

When we were growing up we had f$$k all! My sister – when she became old enough to vote – voted for Labour because they believe in sharing the wealth and as she didn’t have any of that she thought that sharing was a jolly good idea.

Now years later she is in a pretty good job and pays lots of tax (as does her husband), now she votes Tory because she’s not too keen on sharing anymore.

Tories equal greed (in my opinion obviously).

It’s the working class ones who puzzle me. It takes very little intelligence to conclude that voting tory is against you’re interests if you’re working class, and yet they still do it. I can only conclude that it’s down to a perverted sense of pride and machismo, for the men at least. Voting labour is seen as weakness, and an admission that they need help, so they vote tory because it supports their false self-image of ‘hard working man standing on his own two feet who doesn’t need charity’. That and it allows them to be racist and sexist too. None of that namby-pamby political correctness snow-flakery. It’s quite pathetic.

Those who bemoan the insults here – have you reported any posts?

No-one has reported a single post on this thread.

It is considered absolutely fine, and indeed normal, to be as offensive as you want about ‘tories’ or anyone who has voted for the Conservative party on this forum.

It is perfectly fine to challenge views, that’s a tenet of healthy debate. It is not perfectly fine to make personal attacks on other forum users. The sentence above somewhat disingenuously implies bias but you could cross out “Conservative” and put “Labour” and it would be equally as true / untrue.

There’s a small number of users who like to lob hand grenades and then come running to teacher when people disagree with them, but what they’re arguing for here then isn’t moderation but censorship and that’s not going to happen.

I don’t think causing excess deaths is Tory ideology.

I said in an earlier post that with the current handling of the CV19 crisis, the English are beginning to understand what it is like to be ruled by the English… A certain type of English ruling class.

Whether it was the kings of old fighting over territories for power and wealth, all the way through to the industrial revolution, These economies were built on the deaths of those building them. That started to change after the slaughter of WW1, and by the later half of the 20th century it was not really acceptable to do this, the recent military conflicts are a sort of example, with drones and stand off weapons etc, Governments both Labour and Conservative did not want to put its Citizens/Soldiers in harms way if it could be avoided, because of the public backlash on such issues, but even with that, sacrifices still have to be made for economic reasons or the “fluffy term” that is used these days: The National interest.

What you are seeing now with the handling of the pandemic is a sacrifice for economic interest, some of it is down to the hollowing out of the state apparatus in previous years, but a lot of it is down to Brexit, they need the economy running as best as it can to help absorb the no deal brexit that is coming. CV-19 has thrown a large spanner in the works and actually exposed a centuries long and deep rooted indifference of the ruling class of people to the trials and tribulations of others.

It just so happens that these things more often than not happen when Governments of this ilk are in charge, which means the party attracts these sort of people, and thus it is Tory ideology.

But this is not the Conservative party of old.

I am not bemoaning this insults as such just saying i believe that I am not a racist or selfish or what ever else is above and that it was something you will not find me doing in retaliation to another parties supporters

I have hears this so many times before, You may not have voted for this or that, but you voted with those who are this or that. Its the equivalent to “I was only following orders” get out of jail card.

And piss lefties off

I remember reading an article on a Trump supporter saying that he wasn’t “hurting the right people”, which to all intents and purposes this is. The term “snowflake” has now been turned back on the right wing and they don’t like it, that’s what happens when you cultivate a culture war retaliation occurs, things escalate, and will continue to do so.

It’s the working class ones who puzzle me. It takes very little intelligence to conclude that voting tory is against you’re interests if you’re working class, and yet they still do it.

The Daily Express- and Daily Mail-reading working class? I can’t possibly imagine why they might vote Tory.

It’s the working class ones who puzzle me. It takes very little intelligence to conclude that voting tory is against you’re interests if you’re working class, and yet they still do it. I can only conclude that it’s down to a perverted sense of pride and machismo, for the men at least. Voting labour is seen as weakness, and an admission that they need help, so they vote tory because it supports their false self-image of ‘hard working man standing on his own two feet who doesn’t need charity’. That and it allows them to be racist and sexist too. None of that namby-pamby political correctness snow-flakery. It’s quite pathetic.

This comes to mind, maybe not quite to the extremes as America.

Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires

I vote Tory because in return for me bunging them a few quid for their election campaigns, they break the law to allow me to dodge £40 million in tax on my multibillion-pound London property schemes

Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires

Very much a Marcuse idea. His claim to fame was he was only Marxist specifically recruited to work the US government.

Examples of ‘false consciousness’:

working class people believing that certain politicians and policies will benefit the working class when they actually represent and benefit the ruling elite

believing that capitalism is a democracy that promotes political freedom.

believing that society is constructed by autonomous individuals freely negotiating among themselves devoid of power differences and social conditioning.

@Cougar

So you said “didn’t vote” when you really meant “couldn’t vote.” Are you just trolling?

I assume you are referring to me? Of course I have the rights to vote like you lot.
Put it this way why not question my rights to vote with a bet? How much do you wish to bet?