OK.  So I’ve always run Hope brakes because it’s what I started out with and I’ve liked them so had no reason to change.  More recently I’ve bought a complete bike that came with Shimano Deore brakes which are nice enough but don’t feel quite the same quality as the Hopes.  I bought the Shimano bleed kit (syringe and screw in bleed cup thing) and thought it would be a right faff but actually found it to be a really user friendly and clean method of bleeding.

So tonight I check out some Hope bleed videos to see if anything has changed and see that they now do a fancy little bleed bucket to attach to the lever but the only benefit this gives is that you don’t have to keep topping up the reservoir as you bleed.  Everything else remains the same, including the messy ending to the process.

Why don’t Hope introduce the same bleed method as Shimano with the screw in ports on the resorvoir and caliper?  Is there a reason for the top down bleed method because I’ve had real difficulties getting the air out at times?

You can do it from the bottom up if you like. I have the bleed kit they supply which isn’t much except for the machined reservoir caps you get with the hose attached. This allows you to squirt as much fluid as you like into the bleed nipple and out of the top cap. Incredibly easy to do. Shake it about a bit and keep going til the bubbles stop. Done.

Is there a reason for the top down bleed method

Yep, it’s because that is the way the master cylinder pushes the brake fluid.  Just like every car or motorcycle brake I’ve bled.  If you have some other means of moving the fluid like a syringe or those kits that use the pressure from a spare tyre you can do that. Top down is just simple and requires minimal kit

You can bleed brakes however you want as long as you get all the air out, some methods are easier than others on different brakes, and sometimes on bikes due to position.

Some brake manufacturers massively complicate the issue.

Also got the Hope bleed kit. Makes bleeding easier imo. As per Molgrips, you just push the fluid up into the machined reservoir until the bubble have stopped coming through. Its great for a complete fluid flush. Yes fitting the diaphragm is a little messy but not too bad and nothing a wipe over won’t clean up

OK thanks this is useful feedback.  I actually had to send my last brake back to Hope for them to bleed as I just couldn’t get the air out I think it was trapped behind a piston.  I’m not sure I tried pushing the pistons in each side during the process I just used my home made spacer block so maybe the method has changed a little.

I might try a syringe from the caliper next time.

Did you make the caliper bleed nipple the highest point on the brake caliper? (you often have to remove the brake caliper from the frame)

Personally, I’ve always done bottom up, much easier for air to rise so always made sense to utilise that.

those kits that use the pressure from a spare tyre you can do that.

If your referring to the gunson easy bleed kit, it still bleeds from the top down, you replace the reservoir cap with the adapted one and push fluid down through the system to the callipers.

There’s a very good reason for bleeding that way, forcing fluid back the other way can flip the seals in the master cylinder. I’ve never know it happen on an MTB brake, but it is a problem on cars (particularly if you push the pistons back without clamping the hose first and opening the bleed nipple).

No systems perfect, I quite like hope’s simplicity doing it like a  motorbike. Shimano, avid, etc with a plethora of funnels, syringes, master cylinder ‘bladders’ rather than seals, etc, it seems like unless you follow their detailed I instructions to the letter you end up with a poor bleed. Hope you just do exactly what you do on any other brake system on a car/van/motorbike/space shuttle.

There’s a very good reason for bleeding that way, forcing fluid back the other way can flip the seals in the master cylinder. .

How? The pressure is acting on the seal in the same way as when the brake is used? (albeit with more volume and less pressure in the case of bleeding)

If the master cylinder bore is worn then manual bleeding could push the seal past a step inverting the lip (fully stroking the master cylinder would move the seal into an area that is not swept in normal use)

Bottom up is better (except in temperamental, crappy brakes like my bloomin mondeo), afaik there’s nothing stopping you doing that with Hopes? They basically just use the normal motorbike setup, it’s just made massively fiddly by the small reservoir.

I really like the push/pull approach of Formula, Avid and the like, it sounds complicated but it works fantastic.

How? The pressure is acting on the seal in the same way as when the brake is used? (albeit with more volume and less pressure in the case of bleeding)

IIRC it’s to do with the fact that its not under pressure and the piston isn’t moving. If you put your foot on the pedal the piston and seal move and the pressure acts against it, reversing the flow means the seal is in its relaxed position when you apply pressure?

Might be making that reasoning up or might have read it somewhere. But the warning is there in most Haynes manuals never to force fluid back up the system and that’s the reason given.

The alternative for cars is a vacuum bleeder which sucks fluid out of the calliper, I’ve used mine on hopes before with a little clamp on the bleed line to slow down the flow while I just pour fluid in the top.

I attached the Shimano tube and syringe to the bleed nipple (Hope X2) and sucked fluid through, topping up the reservoir when I replaced the rear hose last time. Works fine and less messy.

If your referring to the gunson easy bleed kit

Like that but it was for MTB brakes and I think attached to the caliper.  It was a few years ago I saw it so I may be mistaken

Hope used to make a pressure bleeder that attached to the caliper.

IIRC it’s to do with the fact that its not under pressure and the piston isn’t moving. If you put your foot on the pedal the piston and seal move and the pressure acts against it, reversing the flow means the seal is in its relaxed position when you apply pressure?

That doesn’t make sense.  Whichever way you do it the seals and pistons are in the same position and seeing the same pressure.  I’m guessing, but I suspect that the top down advice is about getting the nasty fluid that’s been sat in the pipes and caliper out rather than pushing it back into the reservoir.  Also, on a car, you’re normally doing just a fluid change, rather than a bleed, so you’re not trying to get air out.

On a bike, I always do bottom up so you’re not fighting gravity.  If you have a look at bubbles in a clear tube when bleeding you can see how much more easily they move up than down.

After trashing more than one Shimano lever by pushing really dirty fluid up from the caliper end and blocking the ports / seizing the lever, I bleed Shimano from the top down these days too. I just fill the funnel, attach a Sram Reverb bleed hose to the caliper end (stiffer hose and much better fit than the stupid Shimano ones) and pump the fluid down. A clean method and doesn’t push black horrible fluid through sensitive parts of the braking system.

Much prefer top down, minimal tools and in my simple head/experience of hope, older Shimano and car brakes it’s never given me a headache.

The syringe shoving, funnel, plug Shimano system always feels like a ball ache to set up and use in comparison, although I will concede it has always given a good bleed.

If you remove the caliper from the frame you can elevate it and do both – force fluid into the reservoir and follow gravity.

I always remove the brake anyway. Easy with external cables and the Hope two piece lever clamp. I push the pistons all the way in with a screwdriver, squirt some fluid in, wave the caliper about to dislodge bubbles wait for a bit to let bubbles rise, then go again.

That doesn’t make sense.  Whichever way you do it the seals and pistons are in the same position and seeing the same pressure.  I’m guessing, but I suspect that the top down advice is about getting the nasty fluid that’s been sat in the pipes and caliper out rather than pushing it back into the reservoir.  Also, on a car, you’re normally doing just a fluid change, rather than a bleed, so you’re not trying to get air out.

It does if you consider that the master piston is dragging the lip (it’s a lip seal not an o-ring) <span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>of the seal with it as you apply force to the pedal.</span>

When applying force to the slave piston or bleeding from the bottom up the master pison is stationary (or might even get pushed back a bit if it doesn’t return properly).

It probably doesn’t effect MTB brakes as it’s unlikely anyone would ever do enough mileage to actually start to wear the master cylinder piston or seals which would exacerbate the problem. The question was “Why do Hope brakes bleed form the top down? Better methods available?” And the answer is, because that’s the way all normal brakes are bled, and the reason all normal brakes are bled that way is because you’re not supposed to push fluid back up the system.

Actually, considering the number of complaints about leaking shimano master cylinders maybe it is a problem on MTB brakes too!

all of this makes me glad I’ve sent my brakes to Hope for a service every couple of years. They truly come back clean and like new. Never had great success bleeding them- bubbles always remain.

It does if you consider that the master piston is dragging the lip (it’s a lip seal not an o-ring) of the seal with it as you apply force to the pedal.

When applying force to the slave piston or bleeding from the bottom up the master pison is stationary (or might even get pushed back a bit if it doesn’t return properly).

OK, but that’s assuming you’re using the pedal/lever to push the fluid through, rather than an EZ-bleed/syringe.  In which case the master piston is in exactly the same position no matter where you attach the syringe.

 because you’re not supposed to push fluid back up the system.

Yeah but it seems there are differing theories as to why you’re not supposed to.  If my bike brakes have got clean fluid in them and I just need to get the air out because I’ve had to disconnect them for some reason then I’d always push it out of the top.

I always reverse bleed my Hopes. One cheap syringe of new fluid with a long tube on the calliper, one with a short tube at the lever. Slowly squeeze new and suck old. Operate lever slowly once or twice at the end to get rid of residual bubbles.

Works well.

LBS (a Hope dealer) also does it this way.

YMMV

I would’ve thought on a car it’s simply a case that it’s easy to collect fluid at each caliper rather than mess about with pushing stuff through from 4 locations.

The master cylinder seal thing sounds fairly unbelievable, maybe power bleeding could cause bad things to happen, but it’s an open system until the master cylinder is depressed on cars, bikes and motorbikes (with the exception of very old Hopes and similar). The pressure on the master cylinder unless you press the brake pedal or pressurise the reservoir is about zero.

Why top down?  Its the easiest way and IME results in a perfect bleed every time.