I’m sure i’ve bored many of you with pics of the jumpy lad on here, but anyway… He’s been running flats all his life, never have we discussed moving to SPDs, but watching the ‘not a race’ DH stuff, it’s easy to notice just how many are clipped in…

Is that something we need to think about ? Will it make his tricks, whips, etc easier ? Obviously it’d make the crank flips and can-cans harder/impossible maybe ? but some of the other stuff it might make it easier for him ?

Thoughts ?

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2m4jBcg]2021-06-08_11-32-23[/url] by Steve Weeks, on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2m4oA5M]2021-06-08_11-31-35[/url] by Steve Weeks, on Flickr

There’s a reason racers learn whips – it’s because whips and scrubs can be a faster way to cover ground. And yeah they look cool too. But most of those guys don’t have a big bag of tricks, so they do the ones they can do really well!

Will it make his tricks, whips, etc easier ?

No.

Obviously it’d make the crank flips and can-cans harder/impossible maybe ?

Yes.

it’s because whips and scrubs can be a faster way to cover ground

How so ? I get things like schralping and changes of direction will help, but how can a whip help cover ground better, unless we’re talking about landing at an angle to already be pointing in a slightly different direction to assist with the entry to the next corner ?

There’s a reason racers learn whips

It’s so they can get in the Pinkbike articles and Vital Raw clips. Have you ever seen a racer doing a straight jump on social media?

Clip in if you’re racing or whatever. Or don’t. Doesn’t really matter. For having fun on a bike, flats all the way.

whips help control the bike in the air rather than making it faster, as I undersatand it (note my wheels do not voluntarily leave the ground)

Clip in if you’re racing or whatever. Or don’t. Doesn’t really matter. For having fun on a bike, flats all the way.

The intention is to do racing yes, both enduro and DH this year planned. But trying not to get too sucked into it and trying to keep the fun aspect mostly.

Clips for tricks? how many dirt jumpers do you see riding clipless?

Clipless for DH/Enduro is about pedalling efficiency and an element of security so you feet don’t get blown off the pedals when hitting rough sections at race speed

thing is, i don’t actually know where he’s going to end up in terms of a rider, whether he’ll go more Dirt Jump/Slopestyle or whether he’ll end up Enduro/DH… i can safely say it won’t be XC though lol. But basically just wondering if it’s something that needs considering/purchasing.

whips help control the bike in the air rather than making it faster, as I undersatand it (note my wheels do not voluntarily leave the ground)

Who the hell told you that? Doing a nice straight safety-pencil is the easiest way to do it. Try throwing a big whip and you increase your chances of blowing up spectacularly. Speaking as someone who has done more than a few flying 90’s.

thing is, i don’t actually know where he’s going to end up in terms of a rider, whether he’ll go more Dirt Jump/Slopestyle or whether he’ll end up Enduro/DH

Why not just let him ride and figure it out? It’s not critical at this point and when it is he’ll make a choice. Or he might get a driving licence, a girlfriend and sack his bike off forever.

If he wants to learn tricks then flats all the way. Great that he’s using them now as it means he won’t learn lazy technique
If he wants to win taxes then yes, definitely worth investing time in clips.

I’m a long term flats user, use SPDs on my road bike but just don’t get on with them off road, but I’m not a racer, I mostly just ride for fun. I can’t jump for shit with SPDs though!

whips and scrubs can be a faster way to cover ground.

Scrubs, yes, more time on the ground, more control, more ability to gain speed, ability to pedal etc.
Whips? Nope. However, some of the movements involved are similar to a scrub.

But there are always exceptions to the general rules. If he’s happy on flats, let him be.

Why not just let him ride and figure it out?

Because that’s what we do as parents, we help, guide and assist our kids, in the same way i take him to BPW and Katy Curd for training, would be the same way i’d take him to a foam pit to learn backflips… It’s all part of being a parent isn’t it ? helping your child make decisions.

He may well bin it all, i’ve got no issues with that if it’s how it goes longer term, but it’s nice to give him the chances to develop too while he has this interest, especially as it aligns with my interests too.

Scrubs are faster because the higher you go, the more forward momentum and kinetic energy youre transfering into gravitational potential.

The progression goes something like this:
1) learn to pump the bike over things for speed
2) learn to jump
3) learn that beyond a certain speed jumping is unavoidable so you squash the jumps to keep them small and keep pumping for speed.
4) the logical conclusion to that is to actively lay yourself and the bike flat to the ground over jumps to minimise height and maximise speed.

N.b most of us, including me never get much past 2, pumping tabletops as hard as we can and still caseing the landing.

https://gfycat.com/rareindolentichthyosaurs

Whips? Nope. However, some of the movements involved are similar to a scrub.

Scrubs are definitely faster in the right situation. Whips are a sort of extension of scrub, but also you can control your landing better. Being able to chuck the bike at the landing in the right orientation is useful. So in some circumstances they’re quicker. Obviously most people you see doing whips are showboating but that doesn’t mean they don’t have their uses for racers.

To answer the OP, why not try clips? They’re certainly popular in the DH and BMX racing scene. If he’s used to flats he will probably be able to switch between them easily enough. For example, when I am working on my flip-whips, I’ll switch from SPDs to flats (/s, obviously).

To answer the OP, why not try clips? They’re certainly popular in the DH and BMX racing scene. If he’s used to flats he will probably be able to switch between them easily enough.

I guess the obvious initial answer is the £150 to try them in a pair of 5 10s and a pair of pedals… that’s without even getting into the which pedal debate of full on SPD or a hybrid SPD/flat type thing instead.
It was more curiosity as to what benefits he’d get for specific aspects really which i think we’ve pretty much answered.

hybrid SPD/flat type thing instead.

If you mean clip on one side and flat on the other, then the simple answer is no.

What he’ll want is a DH pedal with a decent platform around it.

TBH I wouldn’t even bring it up. If he wants to try then fair enough, otherwise it’s just an extra complication at this point. If he does really (really) get going at pace then he’ll also find that being clipped in gives more control of the bike, but they’re not the answer for someone that spends most of their time playing on jumps

I guess the obvious initial answer is the £150 to try them in a pair of 5 10s and a pair of pedals… that’s without even getting into the which pedal debate of full on SPD or a hybrid SPD/flat type thing instead.
It was more curiosity as to what benefits he’d get for specific aspects really which i think we’ve pretty much answered.

Much as there is a load of opinions about being able to unclip as fast as flats you only need to watch Jono at hardline doing a Salmon to see it’s not the case. (or are we arguing Jono isn’t experienced enough)..

Being able to throw the bike away in a single movement is a compromise over speed … so in many ways its a choice of what level of injury.

A bit of a blunt way to look at it is if 1-2 seconds is important enough you’d rather he leave the trail/race on a spine board or walk/limp. Clips will certainly let you get closer to the edge but certainly add a risk.

Clips aren’t going to make his tricks, whips, etc easier just riskier but he’ll probably be marginally faster on a DH and keep his feet on the pedals when he needs to pedal through gnar. Jono doesn’t ride clips when he’s playing with his brother… and I’d put money if he had a magic button he’d have worn clips through the rocky section and pressed it for a magic switch to flats for the backflip. Neither does anyone wear clips at X-Fest

(Was Katy clipped in when she head butted the floor off the car park drop?)

DrP rode clipped in all day at the Rogate meetup but he was riding well within his capabilities, not doing “new stuff”.

Funnily enough this is more or less the drift of a conversation with Blake Sampson (on the start ramp at Rogate).

I guess the obvious initial answer is the £150 to try them in a pair of 5 10s and a pair of pedals… that’s without even getting into the which pedal debate of full on SPD or a hybrid SPD/flat type thing instead.

Horses for courses… I put clips on yesterday for a quick ride but it involved a lot of bridleway and some tarmac .. and changed wheels for the same reason.

Used them Sunday on the HT following ollie on his FS as it was the only way for me to pedal through rock gardens and keep up on a HT… but then I scared myself stupid when we hit the roadgap. Lived through it then switched bikes… but I’d say just don’t do one or the other…

I blew a tyre off on a landing on P Plat a month or so ago .. straight over the bars but thankfully I wasn’t clipped in and bailed.. borrowed a CO2 canister, straightened the bars and kept riding… I’d much more likely have left in an ambulance if it had happened clipped in.

Indeed one of the people I was riding with who rides/races clipped in saw it live and also had it on her GoPro and has since invested in flats!

I feel like I have woken up from a coma with amnesia reading the last post, a conversation with lots of references to people who it sounds like I know, but in reality I am just nodding with no idea who they actually are…

£20-£25 for some platform-ish Shimano SPD’s with cleats, not that the platform does anything.
And any seni-decent non-Five Ten SPD shoes – they’re all shite. I’ve had Ravens (awful corrective shoe looking things), Impact VXI, Hellcat. All cracked the inner plastic sole where the cleats bolt in.

EDIT:
Never, ever, ever go 1/2 flat, 1/2 SPD. 60% of the time you’ll get the wrong side every time.

I feel like I have woken up from a coma with amnesia reading the last post, a conversation with lots of references to people who it sounds like I know, but in reality I am just nodding with no idea who they actually are…

No to put too fine a point on coma’s and clips…

Katy Curd nosedived off the car park drop at FOD… if you read anything about concussion protocols for MTB then she’s your main gal and a huge advocate of protocols and the damage concussion can cause. Given she still rides clipped in from 4x days (as far as I know, she’s been riding clipped in whenever I’ve bumped into her) I’d wonder how she hit her head off a drop she did so many times before. Given this is so far inside her comfort zone I can only speculate a mechanical played a part and she was unable to bail but that’s just speculation.

https://images.singletracks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/RD541391-1170×780.jpg

I guess the upcoming stars deserve mention so here’s Becci Skelton unclipping… I guess another case of inexperience? Luckily her bones are made of the same stuff as Wolverine…
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3fSKGegO-a/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.newsflare.com/video/313641/jono-jones-red-bull-hardline-backflip-fail
Here’s a rider (Jono Jones) that is certainly more experienced than I am clipped in showing how easily they unclip upside down… obviously most members of this forum are way more experienced than Jono so it probably doesn’t count and he’s just a shit rider.

All those riders are WAY WAY better and more experienced and infinitely better riders than I am or will ever be… yet somehow I don’t have their problems unclipping when I’m riding flats.

I’m wondering if there might be a connection ?

I had a big MTB not so long ago … (I’m guessing you know who I mean by DrP as we’d ridden that on the STW Rogate meetup)… and it was AFTER any proper tech .. tyre blew off the rim and next thing I was over the bars but landed on my feet (before falling backwards)… I can’t really imagine doing a somersault AFTER unclipping… and the OTB was mostly the consequence of the tyre blowing off rather than my bad riding… but despite being a generally crap rider I still managed to seperate myself from the bike and walk away…

I’m not anti-clips.. I use them often on both bimbles and when I ride a HT over gnar and need to pedal to keep up with a FS but IMHO the chance of a minor off ending with concussion and or a spine board is way higher than flats.

Chuck in another name … Bienvenido Aguado .. surely it would be as easy or easier to do a 100′ front flip clipped in… but then how about the multiple bails he did before it or what if he takes off wrong? Surely there is a good reason the slopestyle riders don’t ride clipped?

weeksy

I guess the obvious initial answer is the £150 to try them in a pair of 5 10s and a pair of pedals… that’s without even getting into the which pedal debate of full on SPD or a hybrid SPD/flat type thing instead.

You can just buy shoes and borrow pedals… halves the cost to try assuming you/he have a use for them and easier to find someone with spare pedals than shoes that fit. Regardless they will take some riding time bimbling before using on anything serious.

I don’t think there is any debate vis 1/2 and 1/2 pedals for any serious riding.

The only real use is to have a bimble bike you can use whichever shoes but as teethgrinder says they will be the wrong way 60% of the time and sod all grip with flats but like an ice rink with cleated shoes on the flat side…

. Or he might get a driving licence, a girlfriend and sack his bike off forever

True, this….