Gotcha, although for £50 less you could have gotten a deeper section 32 mm wheel with DT350 hubs (162 grams more) which I’d get over hunts any day.

Are people falling for their marketing speak or is it the trendy minimal logos? Do people really think that some guys ordering rebranded parts from taiwan with minor modifications make better wheels than DT?

I’m genuinely looking forward to the “which carbon aero drop bars” and “which carbon stem” threads, because having not searched for either before on Amazon, there are many that undercut PX on the bars front by ~50% and I’m curious if anyone here has fitted any to still be around to tell the tale. 😀

I’m genuinely looking forward to the “which carbon aero drop bars” and “which carbon stem” threads, because having not searched for either before on Amazon, there are many that undercut PX on the bars front by ~50% and I’m curious if anyone here has fitted any to still be around to tell the tale. 😀

Followed closely by “Which dentist” and “which facial reconstruction surgeon” and “which new username”.

Poor value?? What on earth are you talking about. That’s about a 3rd the price of a pair of zipp at same weight.

I had a pair of the primes, hubs absolutely fine. And yes the stickers come off if you read the blurb

Heavier wheelset with shite hubs compared to lighter wheelset with DT350 hubs at the same price, yes, that makes it poor value.

Nobody is comparing anything to Zipps, that’s like saying a purse 1/3 the price of a diamond embroidered £5000 gucci one is “good value” for its comparable ability to carry Chihuahuas.

I’m genuinely looking forward to the “which carbon aero drop bars” and “which carbon stem” threads, because having not searched for either before on Amazon, there are many that undercut PX on the bars front by ~50% and I’m curious if anyone here has fitted any to still be around to tell the tale. 😀

Sorry to disappoint you, but it ends with the wheels. Already ordered a non-aero Thomson stem today. I wouldn’t use carbon handlebars or stems due to safety concerns. Carbon wheelsets from reputable vendors used with disc brakes such as CSC, Hunt (blergh), RR etc seem much safer generally speaking.

Would you seriously trust a deep section carbon rim that’s been made for as little as £50? That’s assuming a sale price of £300 including shipping, so assuming £40 is shipping and 30% of the remainder is profit, that means the whole wheelset was £190. Assuming only £20 for hubs and £30 for spokes with assembly at £20 – that’s £100 for 2 rims…I’d struggle to buy the materials for that much even if I used offcuts.

We’ve inspected cheap carbon components at the National Composites Centre in Bristol and the results were terrifying. We had a cheap frame made from T700 pre-preg and the top tube on one side was 300microns thick (that’s one ply of CFRP) and 4.5mm on the other side.

My Rims on the other hand (Nextie) have all been examined and bar for one which seemed to have a piece loose inside from drilling, have been perfect and uniform. I’d be VERY careful where you buy from. It’s all very well offering a warranty, but it’s the penalty for failure that’ll truly cost you.

Daffy, A man who speaketh the truth. a lot of people around who know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. I’ll leave it now as the OP’s mind seems to be made up.

Daffy, indeed, but materials costs in china at scale are less than what you’ll have access to and labor is $3.6/hour.

I am taking care by (probably) buying from the largest ebay vendor (CSC) after reading through their reviews for evidence of catastrophic failures. There are also plenty anecdotal reports about their wheels and so far they’ve been positive, they aren’t the cheapest wheels you can get either so you’re paying a little extra for the brand/trust, but far less than you do with e.g. HUNT without any of the pseudoscientific marketing jizz.

Would never buy from a random ebay vendor with a few hundred reviews and no website, regardless of reviews.

Look at the rim weights of…decent Chinese manufacturers such as Nextie or LB. a 50mm rim will be around 460-490g, and 80mm rim closer to 700g. That’s with T700 using between 8-12 plys (2-3mm thickness) then look at their premium rims using T800 and T700 – it allows them to reduce the thickness in some regions by 0.5mm at the most, due to the extra strength of the material. It costs about $40-90 more and saves about 40g per rim, the only way to decrease weight after that is to use highly expensive materials such as T1000/M55J/Dryfibre composites, etc. These composites reduce the resin content and increase the fibre weight, but are more difficult to work with and more expensive to buy.

If, as many of the adverts say, they are only using T700 pre-preg, the only way to reduce rim weight is to remove plys, that’s a BIG risk as not only are you removing material, but you’re also potentially reducing ply orientations which give them strength.

That’s just materials. Then you’ve got quality control to think about (highlighted above) resin pocket formation from poor mandrels/bad application of the pre-preg.

I’d be VERY careful. There’s only one way to get low weight AND low cost in CFRP and that’s by compromising safety.

Thanks a lot for the input, makes sense to me, now the wheels I’m looking at aren’t super light nor am I primarily looking for lightness and instead deep rims. The ones from CSC are 1690g+/-30g/pair for 25mm Width 60mm Clincher with T700 carbon fiber DT350s hubs, ring any alarm bells to you?

DT350s are about 420g a set, spokes will be about 250-300g a set (depends on type, number and length) nipples will be either 20g or 50g (aluminium vs brass) so your weight without rims is 670-770g. So your rims are between 450g and 500g for 60mm. That’s quite light for 60mm rim made of T700, but what’s the width? Is it narrow?

DT350s are about 420g a set, spokes will be about 250-300g a set (depends on type, number and length) nipples will be either 20g or 50g (aluminium vs brass) so your weight without rims is 670-770g. So your rims are between 450g and 500g for 60mm. That’s quite light for 60mm rim made of T700, but what’s the width? Is it narrow?

Spokes Mac Aero 424 4.5g x 44 = 198g
Alu nipples 14g
DT350 road front rear (non disc in ad) 374g

Rim weight 552 for 60 mm, external width 25 mm.

25 mm external

My 62mm rims (Reynolds Strike), are 590grams. Total weight of 1650 grams.
Be interested to see how your new wheels perform. My Reynolds wheels just annoy the life out of me so looking to replace them. Braking isn’t good enough to race on and they are absolutely ridiculously difficult to change tubes/tyres.

But you’re looking for a disc wheelset, no?

So the hub weight I stated is accurate, the spoke count will have to go above 44 and the spokes will have to be longer as you’ll have to go 2x on the front and on the NDS rear to accommodate the disc. Alu nipples is up to you, but I wouldn’t. The galvanic potential between steel spokes and a carbon rim with an Alu nipple in between isn’t a good combo. Assume at least 24f and 28 rear (I do 28f and rear) that’s 52 spokes so 8 more at 4.7g per spoke + the length and you’re pretty close to the 250g. You maybe could get away with less spokes given how deep the rim is.

No, I was basing myself off this wheelset: https://www.carbonspeedcycle.com/csc-60mm-tubular-clincher-carbon-bicycle-racing-road-wheels-dt350-sapim-cx-ray-23mm-25mm-u-shape.html

The final wheel weight would go up a bit requesting center lock disc hubs. If you specced brass nipples weight goes up more, the point is that the rims are about 550grams.

I’m curious about the comparison to the HUNT entry level aero wheelset, https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/aero-wheelsets/products/hunt-50carbon-aero-disc-road-wheelset-1438g-50deep-27wide-24spoke-1099#techspecs T700 carbon and under 500 gram rims?

Heavier wheelset with shite hubs compared to lighter wheelset with DT350 hubs at the same price, yes, that makes it poor value.

Genuine question but why do you think the prime hubs are ‘shite’. Have you ever owned a pair? Or are you speculating? As I have 2 pairs and both sets have been flawless.

As for value..depends how much you value your teeth I guess. I’m sure they might be ok but I wouldn’t be buying them.

Most hubs are “shite” compared to DT350 hubs – based myself on the reviews about the RR wheels on chainreaction ”Fronthub runs harshly. Rear hub sometimes makes a loud metal noise. Build is as simple as it can be. Overall both hubs have a disappointing cheap feel.” and similar cheap hubs that have been known to break under power. Shite is a relative term though, they might be decent.

s for value..depends how much you value your teeth I guess. I’m sure they might be ok but I wouldn’t be buying them.

WTF are you on about.

Hats off to the op for actually buying something (did anyone win the sweepstake?) and continuing with his quest which seems one of the most pointless I have ever seen.

Straight spokes = PITA to work with but yes may save 15 seconds or so per decade of commuting.

Those bars I bought and broke – they had a join right where the bars clamp that was duff, and I mean I could have glued them better. This I presume makes them cheaper to make, but it really was laughable. Given rims are one piece, you’d hope they are safer.

My guess is rims are dearer to manufacture (and surely time is the factor more than weight of materials) because it’s a torus shape with lips and the manufacturing volume is lower and technology younger than forks?

GOOD GOD…MENTION OF ALU NIPPLES

So the CSC wheelset is $600 + shipping, a substantial jump from the ebay ones. Also, it’s a very narrow profile, even in the 25mm. Id say those are probably okay, though i do have reservations about MAC spokes and the CX rays would cost you another $80.

Remember, the hunt disc rims are very specifically designed. They seem to have a different layup with extra reinforcement around the spoke holes which enables/requires very high spoke tension Possibly compensating for the low spoke count. But, max pressure on the Hunts for tyres over 30mm is VERY low.

I guess what I’m saying is that Hunt seem to have got their weight down by having a rim designed/selected for a specific implementation.

Not sure how bars are moulded but wheels are remarkably simple, the carbon is put into one half of a female mould, and wrapped arround a torroidal balloon before the top half of the mould is put on, the bladder pressurized and the whole lot is baked in an oven to cure the resin.

On the one hand its a simple process thats hard to eff up.

On the other hand that does mean any old Tom Dick or Harry could aquire some old moulds and the rest of the kit and make some wheels, just throwing some prepreg sheets in the mould with no idea what they’re doing. You could measure the thickness and check the number of layers with ultrasound, but you would have no idea what their orientation was, or how they were arranged.

LB, nextie, and the like are all substantially cheaper than Easton, zipp, reynolds, enve etc, and Id be happy to ride those as there’s an obvious cost saving in not being tunnel tested or marketed. They’re just copies of others shapes and laid up by people who presumably have a degree of expertise in carbon wheels.

The question is, what more corners can you cut to get from LB and nextie to half the price?

Hats off to the op for actually buying something (did anyone win the sweepstake?) and continuing with his quest which seems one of the most pointless I have ever seen.

Nearly pointless from a strictly utilitarian pov (e.g. saving 30 watts with aero wheels), but that’s true for 90% of posts here. For me it’s about fun.

BTW, CSC lets you pay them $60-80 to avoid VAT and customs fees in some magical way.. lol

but that’s true for 90% of posts here

Fair point, but there is a sliding scale of pointlessness

. For me it’s about fun.

Fun in dementing us, I take it? 🤣

BTW, CSC lets you pay them $60-80 to avoid VAT and customs fees in some magical way.. lol

DDU Vs DDP shipping. It’ll be for DDP means they ship it and pay everything upfront so it clears customs so it arrives at the destination like a normal item of mail. DDU means once the buyer is responsible for it clearing customs etc, the seller is only responsible for the actual shipping.

DDP is generally cheaper and quicker overall as there isn’t a handling fee.

BTW, CSC lets you pay them $60-80 to avoid VAT and customs fees in some magical way.. lol

So do Lightbicycle. It’s just prepaid customs. I used it last time as it was a guaranteed cost v’s whatever the charge/VAT/handling costs might be at this end.

Shite is a relative term though, they might be decent

So ‘shite’ in your book is anything not quite as good as a hub you have arbitrarily decided was the ‘non shite’ standard then?

In which case I hate to point out that given you have bought the cheapest, unbranded carbon rims available, would you agree that by your own definition, you have bought ‘shite’ rims..?

Fyi..I have 2 sets of prime wheels, and 2 sets with dt350. And there is no difference whatsoever. Take it from a man who as actually used both, rather than just read about them.

TBF the bearings in my Prime front hub are pretty tiny – at least compared to Hope or Shimano – and didn’t come as packed with grease as I’d like – but I remedied that before I rode them.

God knows how a front hub rides “harshly” though.

DDU Vs DDP shipping

Ah of course, I thought they meant DPD which is a shipping company and didn’t get it.

So ‘shite’ in your book is anything not quite as good as a hub you have arbitrarily decided was the ‘non shite’ standard then?

In which case I hate to point out that given you have bought the cheapest, unbranded carbon rims available, would you agree that by your own definition, you have bought ‘shite’ rims..?

Fyi..I have 2 sets of prime wheels, and 2 sets with dt350. And there is no difference whatsoever. Take it from a man who as actually used both, rather than just read about them.

Wrong, it’s not arbitrary, DT hubs generally don’t blow up, Novatec etc do and there are plenty of cases. Similar designs, worse material quality it seems. Maybe yours are better quality as I was generalizing, but reviews on CR indicates they aren’t great. That you have both doesn’t prove much beyond that the hubs can work just fine – if you grease them up properly like Finbar had to :p

Carbon rims are different, like people have commented, as long as they’re not made too light or used with rim brakes they’re generally fine. Carbon Speed Cycle has an excellent reputation, you can see this from their 3000+ vendor reviews on ebay plus other user experiences on the webz. Cheap doesn’t need to equate to shite here.

Let’s have a look at these ‘shite’ hubs shall we……….

It looks like I’ve got the same (I though they were powerway, might be bitex) hubs as Prime use in my summer road wheels. Zero problems (and I’ve not greased them either). And between them powerway, bitex and novatec probably account for almost all OEM and re-branded hubs you can get.

They’re substantially lighter than DT as well, about 150g lighter for the pair.

And the DT comes with the standard DT freehub, which has 18 teeth, you can upgrade it, but that’s another load of £££. You’r opinion may differ, but I couldn’t stand it, way too noisy, it’s not a nice noise, and the gaps between engagement’s feel huge.

you can see this from their 3000+ vendor reviews on ebay

That they arrived in the post, doesn’t prove much.

I mean, you’ve already told us that the hubs were shite. So the hubs are by your logic as good as the rims?

Carbon rims are different, like people have commented, as long as they’re not made too light or used with rim brakes they’re generally fine. Carbon Speed Cycle has an excellent reputation, you can see this from their 3000+ vendor reviews on ebay plus other user experiences on the webz. Cheap doesn’t need to equate to shite here.

Interesting to see where all these great reviews are? A quick Google only brings up a few reviews, more negative than positive.

But hey, you know best right..

That they arrived in the post, doesn’t prove much.

People mostly review when they receive items yes, but they also leave negative ones if their wheel blows up (unsurprisingly). If their wheels was shit it would reflect in the reviews.

They’re substantially lighter than DT as well, about 150g lighter for the pair

And that makes them better? Lol, that makes them weaker.

1 year long term review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC6wLEIOCxE
Review/advice dealing with vat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYiHvTbd24A

Negative review, delaminated (although the guy kept using them after two crashes and it was during emergency rimbrake breaking, so not applicable to my use case) https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=133976

Rim cracked from riding into rocks, “While the hubs seem fine, the build excellent and the ride outstanding, there is zero impact resistance. As such they are just not fit for purpose.” again, i’m using them for road not rock riding, so should be fine for me as long as I don’t slam into curbs or pot holes – no pot holes here but something to keep in mind – I wouldn’t get carbon rims for rough terrain or roads.
https://www.rotorburn.com/forums/index.php?threads/carbon-speed-cycle-wheels-review.311370/

Here’s farsports £500 offer at 1340 grams w novatech hubs which seems dangerously light, nearly no specs at all, much worse than CSC in that regard. DT350 is only $52 extra. Duty prepaid is $50 extra.

Not dangerously light. They’re fairly expensive for nova tech hubs and Chinese spokes.

It seems like more money has gone into the rims (lighter) and less into the hubs, but also lighter.

Saying that. I would admit to being a little nervous about a 1300g 60mm disc wheel.

I specced up some CK hubs, 50mm premium rims, and CX rays and they were 1550g with brass nipples. in 28/28 config, and CK hubs aren’t light. So with novatec (-140g) less spokes (-40g) and allot nipples (-30g) it’s probably about right. Assuming they are premium rims :-).

I’m not trying to dissuade you, just saying that £300 carbon deep disc rims may be… too cheap?

My concern is their resistance to impact damage, from curbs or pot holes. I’m 91 kgs and sometimes ride with another 10 kgs on my back. Seems like carbon wheels generally aren’t the right tool if you risk impact (potholes are rare here, but..).

DT has nice 32 mm deep section alu rims, maybe one at the front and a disc cover on the back?

Seems like carbon wheels generally aren’t the right tool if you risk impact (potholes are rare here, but..).

Has anyone said that, other than in reference to the potentiall exploodyness of £50 carbon rims?

Hit a pothole on an alloy rim hard enough and it’ll collapse too. Its the more spontaneous failure I think most people would be worried about!

Spend the money on reputable carbon rims and mid range hubs.

Youve been at pains to tell us that saving weight is pointless, so swapping the OEM shimano wheels for fractionally deeper dt ones wont help. Im not convinced aero wheels will really help but it was what you wanted.

P.s. I used to weigh more than you. Notatec/bitex/powerway make pretty much every rebranded hub going. If you think 3000 positive feedback from unboxing is good, theres probably millions of those hubs on everything from oem to four figure wheelsets with different logos