Currently eating ongoing late-ripening toms out of friend’s polytunnel.

Extra points if it is made from recycled carrier bags.

FWIW the local grocer in my village is less than 100 yards from my house and sells loose stuff in brown paper bags.

Not that I’m claiming to be a saint. We get half our meals delivered from Hello Fresh, which is far from environmentally friendly.

Extra points if it is made from recycled carrier bags.

f that snarky bolx. It (tunnel) is over a decade old now, and with many repairs. But you have to start somewhere if you want to opt out of the madness. And It literally provides scores of people with toms, courgettes, peppers etc. ‘Points’ don’t make food or less oacjaging – so will leave that element of poncense to de-tractors.

My grandfather never bought supermarket toms, not for any plastic-related shenags, but because he liked the taste of tomatoes. # grampsgreenhouse

I don’t know if it was a novel comment but I’d not heard it before- Prince Charles said a while back that we base decisions on evidence, which is fine except when we’re making decisions about things that can damage the world- by definition, if you wait for evidence, you’re already doing the damage. So we’re essentially testing the world to destruction. Testing to destruction’s a great idea normally…

Prince Charles said a while back that we base decisions on evidence

Don’t see it myself so much.

Consumers seem to base decisions primarily on convenience. Humans are naturally lazy gatherers like other primates. Low hanging fruit etc.

The public gets what the public wants – the public wants what the public gets.

Any marketing experience will tell you that strong branding + perceived trust + increased convenience + keen pricing will bag the biggest share of the market. A small minority of primates may demand different based on ‘evidence’.

(Super)Marketing = making it easy for us to consume more and faster. Gain our ‘trust’ by making it all look uniform, spotless and neatly packaged. No germs or pesky ‘dirt’ (soil) on our produce. This makes the cheaper factory-grown/reared-pre-packaged stuff ironically more desirable than fresh + hand-picked. No hippie food for us. No poncey ‘organic’ rip-off rubbish. Give me a pack of factory stuff cheap and spotless. At least then I know I’m getting the ‘real thing’ not some rip-off nonsense which is the same (sic) product with a poncey price tag. I’d prefer so much cheap stuff I get to gorge self and still have leftovers to throw away!

OTOH – regarding supermarket’s own brands:

‘These are Huntingford Fayre Pork Pies’

What are those?

‘Huntingford Fayre’

‘Oh’

‘Yes, not the cheap supermarket branded ones’

‘Where did you buy them?’

‘The supermarket’. And they were only £1. And they’re ‘Huntingford Fayres!’

‘Yes, but what is ‘Huntingf…. oh forget it’

‘Evidence’ doesn’t hardly come into it for the average consumer. The average shopper wants it cheapest, easiest, quickest and cleanest. IMO. How do we know this? Because this is how the majority of food is produced, packaged and sold.

Mushrooms are my particular hate, the plastic box weighs more than the produce.

It is greed, the packaging is there to protect profits not for customer convienience.

Greed tbh is the root of most human faults.

I used to think plastic was ok because it can be recycled but recently I’ve been concerned about stories of plastic nurdles being found on beaches etc, and microfibres being released from synthetic clothing such as fleeces.
I totally agree we need to stop over-packaging things.
I also wonder if there could be some clampdown on the tons of useless plastic tat being produced, such as rubbishy plastic toys in kids’ takeaway meals. The type of thing that is played with for 30 seconds and discarded.

Plastic, or most plastics can be recycled…the problem is some is not because people can’t be bothered to do it. My wife is terrible, i’m forever pulling stuff out of the bin that should have gone in the recycle bin, she gets it but just seems to put convenience ahead of what I believe to be everybody’s responsibility in this day and age. And the yoof’s of today who we’re supposed to be doing all the environmentally responsible stuff for so they can inherit the planet in half decent shape don’t seem to care. The number of times I see a Vauxhall Corsa ‘halfords special’ at a junction with a cloud of smoke bellowing out of it followed by a full on mcdonald’s bag full of the cartons and everything being tossed out of the window then that is pretty depressing. Then I travel to other countries and you think why do we even bother!

But the trend is to use more plastic not less. The bike industry is a classic. People are bending over backwarwads to replace their perfectly recyclable metal bike for environmentally irresponsible carbon one all in order to save the weight of a big poo.

We’ve got 3 bins in the kitchen (Green, Non-recyclable and plastic) and 8 in the utility (glass x2, paper, metal, cardboard, cartons (plasticized card basically), plastic, non-recyclable).
Our “non-recycling” bin outside is usually only 20-30% full when it’s collected once a fortnight.
Green bin is also only 25% full.
That’s for a family of 4.
The rest we take to the local recycling place when we are a) passing or b) going shopping.

Fines for people who put recyclables in the non-recycling bin as well.

AFAIK, as a country, we import waste to recycle.

Oh, the non-recyclable-but-burnable waste goes to a BioMass plant in the next town to provide heat/power to the local area…….. That also burns waste from the logging industry.

The whole thing isn’t particularly hard to do TBH. Just need to political will to do it.

Even people in tiny flats have recycling facilities, usually in the basement or not far from the flat (the flat we lived in when we emigrated had one recycling centre on the way to the nearest bus stop and another on the way to the local shops.

Oh, yeah, plastic shopping bags cost about 20 pence…… we don’t use many. Maybe one a week.

My stepdaughter recently explained that she doesn’t have a cover to protect her new iPhone because the covers can’t be recycled.

She gets a new phone every year, or sooner if she drops it.

Madness.

There’s something very wrong when a bunch of bananas in a plastic bag cost less than a loose bunch!

The world is going madder than me… And that’s saying something.

I was at a friends last night, they were showing off their new kitchen, “look at this built in recycling bin.. it was £300!!” it did look very nice but on closer inpection all the sections contained mix waste.
No actual recycling was happening. It was soon closed when I started sorting though it.

AFAIK, as a country, we import waste to recycle.

Very wrong sadly. We ship thousands and thousands of tonnes of low grade waste across the world to be dealt with in countries with less attentive pollution prevention laws to deal with.

China has recently decided it no longer wishes to be the world’s rubbish tip and is banning the import of low grade waste.

Reuters: Waste mountains waiting for export

A number of our modern waste recycling facilities were taken down as they were unprofitable against just shipping it abroad. I await to see which country decides the profits of the 1st world’s waste are way more important than their people’s health. Somewhere in Africa is a good bet. 😥

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/sweden-s-recycling-is-so-revolutionary-the-country-has-run-out-of-rubbish-a7462976.html

Would have thought that it was pretty bloody clear from the rest of my post that i wasn’t in the UK.

Would have thought that it was pretty bloody clear from the rest of my post that i wasn’t in the UK.

it wasn’t at all clear

Really?
Logging industry?
BioMass plants/Communal CHP?
More than one recycling centre within easy striking distance?
The whole thing isn’t particularly hard to do TBH. Just need to political will to do it.
20 pence for a plastic bag (aren’t they 5 pence in the UK now?)

Anyway, no, not in the UK, yes, we import waste.

Moving from plastic to paper bags is madness. Paper bags barely last one use and paper is not remotely environmentally friendly either in it’s process or the amount of fibers it chucks into the air.

As for packaged fruit and veg a lot of it is for improving the shelf life of the food. Whether you think that’s a good a or bad thing for the environment I’m not sure.

One of the biggest improvements in reduced use of plastics of late in the UK, has been the carrier bag charge.

the UK isn’t as backwards as some might think – although many of its residents might be!

for instance in Bristol –

we have multiple recycling bins
main bin is collected fortnightly and usually has very little in it
from my house I can walk to several recycling spots
there are various small biomass / waste incineration plants nearby with more planned. Although looking at it, a lot of the planned ones that hit the headlines over the last few years never actually came to fruition so there aren’t as many as I thought. There are biomass plants further north tho.
plastic bags are 10p I think but we don’t really buy them.

it was probably your reference to things costing 20p that threw me 😉

Would have thought that it was pretty bloody clear from the rest of my post that i wasn’t in the UK.

Calm down dear, my error, anyway, the information I commented on is still pertinent.

The public gets what the public wants – the public wants what the public gets.

It does. Which is why you need legislators with balls, and preferably not subject to the whims of a dim electorate (one reason I’m pro EU).

In the office in which I currently work, there are probably 1000 or 1500 people. There are two coffee places, each of which is churning out paper cups, probably a couple of thousand a day. There are recycling bins around the place but they don’t accept paper cups.

The management should force the coffee shops to not give out paper cups and only sell coffee in re-usable cups provided by the customer. Within a few weeks every coffee starved employee would’ve brought their own mug.

In the old days when people made their own beverages in the staff kitchen this is what everyone did, and didn’t think twice. There was a stash of company mugs for visitors.

Surely plastics themselves aren’t the problem…

More the fact that since we live in an oil dominated society, the vast majority of plastics are oil based.

If the oil industry didn’t have such vast lobbying power (no doubt along with the economic convenience of existing production facilities), perhaps we’d see more immediate adoption of Bioplastics.

There’s a clever Icelandic dude who has used algae:

a design student named Ari Jonsson entered in a design festival in Reykjavik, Iceland. He brought something with him that has the potential to change the world. It’s very simple: a bottle of water. But not just any bottle of water… Jonsson’s design holds its shape while there’s water in it. When it’s empty, it begins to decompose.

Globally, we use 500 billion plastic bags every year, and every single piece of that plastic takes anywhere from 400 to 1000 years to decompose. Of all the trash on the surface of the ocean, some 90% of it is composed of plastic. And to really blow your mind, think about this: except for the small percentage of plastic that’s been burned, every single piece of plastic ever made is still floating around somewhere. That drinking straw you used yesterday for less than a minute? That’ll be around for the next half-century.

Edit with bonus link for choice quoteability:

“I can’t claim that this is the perfect solution for our problem with plastic bottles,” said Jónsson. “But it’s a start and an idea that hopefully helps us to look at new ways to solve the problem… Switching to reusable bottles is also great, but that will have its pros and cons, just like my project, the more ways we can tackle this issue the better.”

Glass bottles … recyclable

The glass collected by our local council is ground up to make aggregate for building new roads…

Prince Charles said a while back that we base decisions on evidence

Prince Charles, the massive fan of homeopathy?

Malvern Rider – Member

Consumers seem to base decisions primarily on convenience. Humans are naturally lazy gatherers like other primates. Low hanging fruit etc.

Fair comment, he was meaning the global we- governments and corporations- rather than the individual. The point is, people dispute climate science or similiar and we get very tied up in proving the point, where actually the consequences are such, that we shouldn’t expect or require 100% or 75% proof. If anything the burden should be on the polluter or regulator to prove beyond any doubt that it’s safe.

If you were going to jump off a cliff you wouldn’t settle for the water probably being deep enough, so when we’re planning emissions targets and plastics reduction and the like we shouldn’t settle for it’s probably fine. And we definitely wouldn’t jump off the cliff to see what happens.

It actually made me think about it a fair bit… I do get dragged into fighting deniers (or genuine skeptics) with facts and it lets the entire argument become very dry and technical and ignorable, and disputable. It’d make more sense to reposition the entire debate and get away from “do it unless you know for sure it’s damaging”

miketually – Member

Prince Charles, the massive fan of homeopathy?

Even an inbred out of touch overprivileged clock is right twice a day

Wasn’t there a thing a while ago that dishwashers used less water/energy than washing by hand?

This was based on research that compared a dishwasher loaded up to the maximum capacity as per the design, with people washing up by hand under a running tap. Not very representative of UK practice……………

What are the chances…

just got a phone call from Greenpeace about Coca-Cola and how they are one of the largest contributors to the global plastic problem…

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txKtT0h_vMs[/video]

By some strange twist of fate, I’ve recently been doing a bit of research into a somewhat questionable investment bank called Allen & Company.

Turns out that long time president of Allen & Company (albeit now run by his son), Herbert Allen Jr has been on the board of directors of Coca-Cola since 1982, when he sold Columbia Pictures to Coca-Cola.

Worth bearing in mind that George Tenet ex head of the CIA who was in charge of intelligence throughout the period before 9/11 and during the build up and execution of the resource rich invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq works for Allen & Company.

May go some way to explaining the economic ties between the oil and plastics industries…

Greenpeace’s solution of deposit refundable bottles, just like in the old days of Corona and Irn-Bru seems a pretty straightforward fix, without needing to dabble too far in R&D.

Surely sustainable and biodegradable Bioplastics are the long term solution though.

Already got deposits on plastic bottles here. Have had for years, longer than i’ve been here anyway.

That reminds me of a funny incident in Lidl in Bourg St Maurice when I was out there for the summer.

A Scandinavian sounding family were behind me in the queue, with a massive sack of plastic bottles; just as I’d paid and was packing my stuff, they tried asking the cashier how they got their deposit back… she looked totally disgusted and bemused and turned to me, hoping I could explain what was going on; I did my best to explain, then she, with typical gallic flair guffawed ‘poubelle’… I stifled my laugh and left giggling to myself.

Whilst it was funny at the time, in a way it’s a perfect illustration of how we can be trained into habits on both sides of the equation.

Along with the environmental benefits, deposits on bottles can also have social benefits; I remember when I was in Central America, entrepreneurial folk (kids and adults) would go around collecting bottles which had been discarded, and ask you for your bottle when you finished.

So some of us in the first world are a bit concerned – that means very little will happen for a very long time.

Meanwhile in the rest of the world, where there is a massive plastic pollution problem, they have other things to worry about.

Then, when/if the third world possibly develops into a consumer society, pollution will increase even more.

Basically the root cause is greedy lazy people and we keep breeding.
We are witnessing first hand the destruction of the environment.

This was based on research that compared a dishwasher loaded up to the maximum capacity as per the design, with people washing up by hand under a running tap. Not very representative of UK practice………

Dishwasher uses about 10 litres of water.

Coincidentally, that’s about the size of a sink.

No score draw, except, dishwasher more convenient.

There seem to be loads of people everywhere carrying bottles of water. Can’t they just take a water bottle and fill it with tap water.
There are 2 canals by our house. Everytime I walk past there are bits of plastic floating slowly down to the locks, these bits will eventually end up in the ocean.

It’s time to start shopping sensibly. You really don’t need bananas, pineapples, avocados, onions etc in a covering, nature gave them a skin. Pop these items straight into the shopping receptical and off to the till.

Some people are more than lazy, they just couldn’t give a toss and only think about themselves.
Education, education, education.

I overheard two people in my office talking about drinking enough water and one of them said she keeps a load of plastic bottles of water in the fridge because it’s easier than getting a glass out of the cupboard and going to the tap…

I have a friend who spends a lot of time sailing in the caribbean, they found a huge area of floating plastic, mostly bags and plastic sheeting, several km long and going down 20m or something. They filmed it but I don’t think it’s online yet. Really horrendous. There’s various other films about other areas of floating plastic in the sea online and various awareness campaigns by some big players including Red bull tv.

I think microfibers have been covered on this thread already but yeah we’re eating quite a bit of plastic in seafood these days – they’ve even been found in animals in the rockal trough, nevermind coastal waters.

davidtaylforth – Member
It would only take the introduction of some simple legislation.
A ban on breeders would be a good start. Let the planet recover for a bit

Yup this.

ton – Member
never. same as anything that threatens wildlife/the planet/ecosystems.

humans are greedy, as long as there are humans, we are ****.

And this.

manlikegregonabike – Member
I don’t understand why everything isn’t in cardboard or paper yet?

Simply put, weight.
[video]https://youtu.be/2L4B-Vpvx1A[/video]

After visiting Munich I was pretty impressed by their system – this was 10+ years ago:

They had the standard number of bins: glass, paper, plastics etc, and one for non-recyclables.
Your non-recyclables were weighed automatically by the truck, and the amount logged against your account. You get an allowance each year – above which you have to pay per KG of non-recyclables that you throw away.

Obviously we’d struggle with this in the UK – you’d get people fly-tipping, or try to put things in other peoples bins, but it would start to change people behavior, make them understand that there IS a tangible cost associated with sending things to landfill, and encourage them to choose products with recyclable packaging (and then actually recycle it).

Unless you are going to legislate at the manufacturer/retailer level (which I believe we should), you have to introduce an incentive for the consumer to drive market forces – demand products that don’t come without the bare minimum packaging.

The galling thing is the solutions are out there – have been for years. We just need the political will to put them into practice.

I live in Munich and am not aware of anyone’s rubbish being weighed 😕 🙄

There is a deposit on all bottles, be they glass, reusable plastic or one-way plastic. Plastic bottles have a higher deposit.

You can leave all your empties after a party by the river knowing full well that some poor homeless or industrious pensioner will have collected them by the time the sun is up.

Plastic carrier bags are not given away and cost about 20-30 cents. I’m not 100% sure what they cost as we always take our own. Just about everybody does.

When I first came to Germany I was initially really confused by the collection of bins under the kitchen sink.

There is noticeably less litter in Germany compared to the UK. The UK is generally better than Spain or southern Italy.

ghostlymachine – Member
We’ve got 3 bins in the kitchen (Green, Non-recyclable and plastic) and 8 in the utility (glass x2, paper, metal, cardboard, cartons (plasticized card basically), plastic, non-recyclable).
Our “non-recycling” bin outside is usually only 20-30% full when it’s collected once a fortnight.
Green bin is also only 25% full.
That’s for a family of 4.
The rest we take to the local recycling place when we are a) passing or b) going shopping.

Fines for people who put recyclables in the non-recycling bin as well.

AFAIK, as a country, we import waste to recycle.

Oh, the non-recyclable-but-burnable waste goes to a BioMass plant in the next town to provide heat/power to the local area…….. That also burns waste from the logging industry.

The whole thing isn’t particularly hard to do TBH. Just need to political will to do it.

Even people in tiny flats have recycling facilities, usually in the basement or not far from the flat (the flat we lived in when we emigrated had one recycling centre on the way to the nearest bus stop and another on the way to the local shops.

Oh, yeah, plastic shopping bags cost about 20 pence…… we don’t use many. Maybe one a week.

Do you also live in Germany? 😉

So expanding on this a bit:

Surely plastics themselves aren’t the problem…

More the fact that since we live in an oil dominated society, the vast majority of plastics are oil based.

If the oil industry didn’t have such vast lobbying power (no doubt along with the economic convenience of existing production facilities), perhaps we’d see more immediate adoption of Bioplastics.

Turns out that in addition to the ‘spooky’ links between long time director of Coca-Cola Herbert Allen Jr and ex CIA head George Tenent, there’s also another glaring conflict of interest closer to home…

John Manzoni Chief Executive of Her Majesty’s Civil Service and Permanent Secretary of the Cabinet Office had a high level career in the oil industry for almost 30 years, (Manzoni was Chief Executive for Refining & Marketing at BP at the time of the Texas City Refinery explosion in 2005)…

In February 2014, Manzoni joined the British Civil Service in a senior role as Chief Executive of the Major Projects Authority, a role under the remit of the Cabinet Office.[10] His former BP boss John Browne, Baron Browne of Madingley, who had also left BP in 2007 and to whom Manzoni had been second-in-command, sat on Manzoni’s appointment panel.

But what does this have to do with plastic?

As of 2015, Manzoni continues to be a non-executive director for SABMiller, for which he is paid £100,000 a year.

SABMiller

was the world’s second-largest brewer measured by revenues (after Anheuser-Busch InBev) and was also a major bottler of Coca-Cola. Its brands included Fosters, Miller, and Pilsner Urquell.[2] It operated in 80 countries worldwide and in 2009 sold around 21 billion litres of beverages.

SAB Miller also owned over 150 market-leading local brands. The company was one of the world’s largest Coca-Cola bottlers and had carbonated soft-drink bottling operations in 14 markets. These were subsequently owned by the new Anheuser-Busch InBev SA/NV entity which is also a PepsiCo bottler. In December 2016, Coca Cola Co. bought the Coca Cola operations in Africa and in two Central American countries. The deal requires regulatory approval and should close by the end of 2017.

Nothing to see here, as if kids need a planet anyhoo…

I have a friend who spends a lot of time sailing in the caribbean, they found a huge area of floating plastic, mostly bags and plastic sheeting, several km long and going down 20m or something. They filmed it but I don’t think it’s online yet. Really horrendous.

Saw something the same on FB today, & yes it is horrendous.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-41866046/the-giant-mass-of-plastic-waste-taking-over-the-caribbean

Most supermarket veg is available loose, its all the ‘premium’ or organic stuff thats wrapped as it needs to be distinguished from loose veg at the tills. So we have to buy the standard stuff to reduce demand. Unfortunately, the ‘ugly’ veg is often bagged so it can be distinguished as budget, if it were loose everyone would pick out the best and leave all the misshapen veg in the tray.

I did have a bit of a stubborn moment last time when I couldn’t find any mangetout/sugarsnap/green beans etc not only not wrapped, but also all from Egypt.

I worked in injection moulding & blow-moulding factory some years ago. To start I was always thinking surely we’ve made enough **** buckets by now? Got numb to it after a while. Made me dead inside. https://youtu.be/LwXnMQRjW8E