[Closed] When does weight really matter?

Hillclimbs

e bikes don't discriminate 😉

every man can lose a stone in bodyweight, for free.

Is your new hip ti or stainless tho Ton? should have gone for the TI option!

Is your new hip ti or stainless tho Ton? should have gone for the TI option!

good old british stainless teej, or so i hope........ 😆

[quote=ton ]every man can lose a stone in bodyweight, for free.

which of my limbs do you advise me removing 😉

ton - Member
every man can lose a stone in bodyweight, for free

*targets 9st for 2017*

which of my limbs do you advise me removing

just cut your hair........hippy

 

😆

Based on using single ply and dual ply tyres on the same bike, I find the extra half pound per wheel results In better momentum (helping the bike carry speed and roll over rough stuff) which for me outweighs the weight save. Surely if you’re climbing at a steady speed the rotating weight of the wheel doesn’t really matter. I can understand the slight reduction in acceleration and deceleration performance but the benefit of momentum must also play into it. It’s a balance.

@ton, i can try losing a stone, but are you sure 8st is a healthy option for a 5'9 guy?

Think ton's on about proper men 😉

but are you sure 8st is a healthy option for a 5'9 guy?

i reckon it is about as healthy as 9 stone is. 😀

When it's the sum of parts. I can feel when I've lost or gained about 2kg of body weight.

So 1-2kg on a bike is significant on a climb.

People often say "it's only 300g difference". Do that across 6 components and you're nearly at 2kg.

Little weight differences add up, so if you want a light bike you need to look at every component.

I've always read and been told lighter is better. Now I know it's not the case unless racing all the time.

Not sure how you have come to that conclusion. Lighter is better for me as I prefer riding light bikes. I don't race and my riding is solely for pleasure. Additional pleasure comes from riding a lighter bike.

It is that simple.

Where as I find additional pleasure in the additional comfort fat heavy tyres and wide wheels bring. I do ride rigid though

Purely from a physics point of view then Mass affects acceleration.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Less mass means less Force (energy or power) is required to accelerate at the same rate or that you can accelerate at a greater rate with the same Force (energy or power). So weight is ALWAYS involved.

On a bike it can be difficult to detect the change simply because there are so many other factors that obscure this effect.

As covered in some of the posts already.

@aazlad-bloke:

I find the extra half pound per wheel results In better momentum (helping the bike carry speed and roll over rough stuff) which for me outweighs the weight save.

interesting point! Never thought this way around.
You say: on certain trails a "high momentum" wheel will be faster.
Might be.

@JAG-bloke:

Purely from a physics point of view then Mass affects acceleration.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

This is correct.
But what aazlad-bloke says is also correct:

A "moving mass" has energy stored. Moving at the "same speed" the higher mass has more energy stored.

This - indeed - might help to

carry speed and roll over rough stuff

But also clear: aazlad-bloke has to put more energy into his bike.
If the trail is downhill: gravity helps.
Uphill: he needs to be stronger and always has to keep a "minimum speed" to gain from his "high momentum" wheels...
aazlad-bloke uses his wheels to store energy.

Mmhhh
Possible.
Might be the case for certain trail profiles and very strong bikers.

Soon after I bought my CX bike I changed the below:

Dropped 650g when changing the wheels
Dropped 300g when changing tyres too.
Dropped 300g by changing the cassette also.

= 1150g, 1.15kg weight saving.
The difference was night and day. Acceleration, running with it on my shoulder and overall agility of the bike was much improved.
I'm only 8.5stone and the bike weighs 8kg, so dropping 1.15kg was very noticeable.

Although, on the flat you might actually feel a benefit of heaver wheels as they roll for longer. Keep the momentum better. But give negative results on the hills or sprint accelerations.

Bike weight advantages are so subjective. 10 different riders will have 10 different views. Mathematically it must make a difference but the benefit of the difference has different affects on riders views.

A guy who is a lean racing whippet might have the fitness to not care about saving 500g.
Another guy with the same fitness level might not want anything to hamper his progress, so 500g is critical to him.
Another guy might be 19stone, so 500g may not make any noticeable difference to overall.
Another guy does not have the extortionate amount of pennies required to go hunting grams, so ignores weight figures.
Another guy just wants strength and dependability so does not give a sh1t about weight.

Build the bike that feels better for you.
You have to experiment yourself and decide yourself, on your own circumstances and what you are looking for from your steed or riding experience..

every man can lose a stone in bodyweight, for free

That would put me down at around 7 1/2!

That would put me down at around 7 1/2!

And you’d still have a stone to lose then, of course 🙂

Interesting stuff! I thought my DT wheels were heavy but after looking around they're lighter and wider than Hope tech enduro wheels.

After riding with 30mm rims with 2.3 tires (Maxxis DHF and Aggressor) there is a noticeable drop in grip when going back to 21mm rims with 2.25 Hans Dampf and NN which felt great until riding my other wheels/tires. Im only 60kg so never had a problem with burping tires or wheels braking.

2 things im tempted to try:

Wider tire on my narrower wheels keeping the weight down but might have an odd shape.

Lighter tires on wider rims. My current Maxxis tires arnt exactly light.

Medlow says it all really.
For me its

 Lighter is better for me as I prefer riding light bikes. I don't race and my riding is solely for pleasure. Additional pleasure comes from riding a lighter bike.

It is that simple.

Additional pleasure comes from riding a lighter bike

Until you start hitting the point where the light weight parts aren't up to the job or perform worse...

It's never black and white, shades of [s]grey [/s]brown all over and endless compromises and balancing acts.

It's never black and white, shades of grey brown all over and endless compromises and balancing acts. [/quote}

I ride very simple bikes of very easy terrain and it is very black and white for me. I don't find myself making compromises let alone endless compromises and balancing acts.

 

Lighter is better for me as I prefer riding light bikes. I don't race and my riding is solely for pleasure. Additional pleasure comes from riding a lighter bike.

I've had some pretty light bikes in the past and enjoyed riding them at the time. The most enjoyable-to-ride bikes I've had were my last Orange Five which was built with 160mm forks and massive tyres which you could steam roller through stuff on and my current Alpine 160.

My riding is now solely for pleasure, given up on racing but for me, angles, tyres, the right amount of suspension and a dropper post = more enjoyment than something light. Of course I could chuck a load of money at making my Alpine lighter but I love riding it so I'll chuck the money towards Greggs and beer.

kerley - Member

Not sure how you have come to that conclusion. Lighter is better for me as I prefer riding light bikes. I don't race and my riding is solely for pleasure. Additional pleasure comes from riding a lighter bike.

It is that simple.

I agree with this

Where as I find additional pleasure in the additional comfort fat heavy tyres and wide wheels bring. I do ride rigid though

the two are not mutually exclusive Tyres don't need to be heavy to be fat do they - My bike has relatively wide tyres but still weighs comfortably under 25 lbs which for me is the benchmark of a light bike

I ride very simple bikes of very easy terrain and it is very black and white for me. I don't find myself making compromises let alone endless compromises and balancing acts.

You do make compromises and you are already balancing your needs, even if you don't realise it. You've found the optimum tool for your use case, but you could still go lighter again, I very much doubt you're at the limit of lightness.

The point is, as you have already acknowledged, your current riding is served adequately by your current equipment, and if your riding is consistent then your needs don't vary much.

If on the other hand your riding is extremely varied you have to make more compromises (or keep changing bikes mid ride!). One of your requirements is the feeling of a light bike, as it's important to you, it's also important to me, but not at the expense of other performance metrics.

If you moved or your riding changed you might have to compromise, either by changing your kit, or if the feel of your bike is more important to you, then by riding differently.

ie: I could use lighter wheels or tyres, but I'd end up walking home more often, so I compromise. Just because you've already reached your compromise doesn't mean you haven't made them, or balanced your needs already.

Weight may be important, for some it might be the most important factor, for others it might be further down the list, doesn't make either of those people right or wrong, it just means they have different requirements.

I cant help but want another pair of wheels now. Just cant find any that tick the boxes:

27.5
15x100 and 12x142
26-30mm internal width
1.7kg or less
XD freehub

I'm only 60kg so don't need to be super strong.

Maybe try these ??
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/dynamic-wheel-weighting-51327/

If your'e really that worried about weight, have a crap, shave & a haircut before you go out on the bike.

27.5
15x100 and 12x142
26-30mm internal width
1.7kg or less
XD freehub

Hope pro 4 on WTB KOM i29 light spokes...

Kryt's will know.

You do make compromises and you are already balancing your needs, even if you don't realise it. You've found the optimum tool for your use case, but you could still go lighter again, I very much doubt you're at the limit of lightness.

I really don't. All that stops my bike being lighter is the fact I don't want to spend vast amounts of money on it (I do light on a small budget). I suppose that is a compromise but not the sort you are referring to.

I tend to operate on the basis that if everything else is equal, lighter is better, but having had some weight weenie times, and broken parts to show for it, weight is no longer a primary selection factor for me.

i now tend to go for the lightest parts that are reasonably priced and up to the task. a lot of the time i don't even look at the weights except on "big" stuff like frames, forks, wheels etc.

Strong. Light. Cheap. Choose two - as valid today as it's ever been

Definitely lighter bikes win out on climbing, but I also think a heavier bike does help on the descents. Bike tends to hold its line better with reduced tendency to ping off stuff.

So maybe the answer is to ride a lightweight bike to the top of the hill and then fill a frame bag full with rocks for the decent.

That would have the additional effect of gradually reducing the height of my local hills and in the very long term eventually remove the problem altogether.

and then fill a frame bag full with rocks for the decent.

Funny:
Carbon sleds with Pinion gearbox.
These bikes are still 2 kg heavier than comparable plastic bikes.

The manufacturer of the Pinion sleds claim that this isn't a problem so...

Question then: are these bikes fun?
Do they win races?

does weight really matter?

Does it matter according to what criteria?

Will it make you faster uphill? A bit.

Will it feel nicer to ride? Probably.

Will it fill the void? No.

I had an XC race bike which was 21.5lbs, with 1250g 26" wheels. That accelerated incredibly quickly, and by heck it was noticeable.

I'll have to do a few experiments with my wheel and tire combos.
Just don't know if I'll really notice the benefits of going from a 21mm rim to 30mm on 2.25 and 2.3 tires. FYI most my riding is local woods, XC, and the odd trail center. FYI my wider wheels are nearly 250 grams heavier at 1908 grams.

IME this depends a lot on what you ride, how you ride it and who with. Light bikes obviously feel faster to accelerate and take less effort to move around or climb hills with but there can be compromises in stiffness and sure-footedness. The lightest bikes I’ve owned were quick for XC thrashing but were not the most fun on technical terrain. Trails and the prevailing riding style have evolved in my local patch in recent years and that has been mirrored by less focus on bike weight and more on gnarrability.

The manufacturer of the Pinion sleds claim that this isn't a problem so...

Question then: are these bikes fun?

@Stevet1

All to do with where the weight is on the bike. Low down in the middle like the pinion has less effect than at the rear hub (Rohloff) or having heavy wheels etc.

Pinion: yes. Maybe even more fun / better ride due to VERY low weight rear wheel? Overall bike weight high so....?

Neat, new design:
https://www.deviatecycles.com/
"The Guide"
Can't find the total bike weight.
But possible that this bike will win races - athough it might be not the lowest weight Enduro bike?
But fantastic suspension...?

As a compromise has anyone put a wider rim on the front with a narrower rim on the back? Or upgraded to i wider rim just on the front to improve grip?

At the moment my OCD says don't do it.

Easton Heists will pretty much tick all your boxes, 50g heavier at 1750g for 27mm internal but do everything else.

And cotic did a report on widths a while back, they said iirc 40f 35r was optimal so yes, a difference front to back.

Ultimately the bike has to be fit for purpose, not very good if the frame or a wheel cracks after a few rides. So the answer is "as light as it needs to be but no lighter".

Road not MTB: my mate obsessed about bike weight, had a lot (and I mean a lot) of disposable income, so would buy the lightest bike he could. Unfortunately he wasn't exactly svelte, probably in the 90-100kg range, and he'd crack the frames.

The other night when riding home I caught up with a rider just as we were going through the village, from there it's 2Km uphill at about 8% gradient. I was on a Croix de Fer, he was on a carbon road bike. I matched him until about 50 metres from the top of the first long ramp when the elastic snapped, 500 metres later he'd put over 100 metres into me. He was probably 10-15kg lighter than me as well 😳

The other night when riding home I caught up with a rider just as we were going through the village, from there it's 2Km uphill at about 8% gradient. I was on a Croix de Fer, he was on a carbon road bike. I matched him until about 50 metres from the top of the first long ramp when the elastic snapped, 500 metres later he'd put over 100 metres into me. He was probably 10-15kg lighter than me as well

In reality, he saw you on your heavy cross bike, had a bit of a play letting you stick on his wheel and then when the time was right, he opened the briefcase of hurt and dropped you like a stone.

Quite possibly 😀 though it was dark and I was mostly just behind him. It was a good workout though (trying) to keep up.

I was on a Croix de Fer, he was on a carbon road bike

He was probably 10-15kg lighter than me as well

And which of those two* aspects do you think had more effect ?

*assuming of course you were both equally powerful, he might just have been stronger or fitter than you anyway.

He might have been a lot younger as well!

It will have been a mixture, most likely in the proportion of body and bike weight differences. I'm pretty certain I could have held him (at that pace) if I'd been on my carbon road bike as I've been up that road much quicker on that.

Often it's being pushed that gets you the quickest times - a couple of years ago I went for a ride with two pretty quick riders. After an hour of me blowing out of every orifice whilst they chatted we got to the climb out of the Dale. In trying to match them my Strava PB on that segment went from 9m20secs to 6m34secs! I've not been within 30 seconds since then.

I don't know if I agree with heavier wheels roll longer... the heavier rim will have more angular momentum and inertia so will slow down more quickly, no?

I currently have i23s with schwalbe super gravity things on and they defo do not roll faster than when they had exo maxxis highrollers on.

Best place to save weight therefore is in your wheels and especially rims and tyres, with tyres usually being the heavier of the two components (unless you're already running lightweight tyres).