You aren’t a failure if you don’t cut out meat completely. but if everyone reduced their consumption a small amount it would be a massive difference

I’ve more recently come round to this type of thinking, eating better, higher welfare meat. Maybe I’m just on the beginning of the slope others have been on, whole ultimately ended up being vegetarian. I was a vegetarian when I was a teenager, purely because I thought eating animals was weird but as wider society does it, it’s easy to relax back in to.

I’ve more recently come round to this type of thinking, eating better, higher welfare meat.

That’s where I am at the moment, but have to say this has been a really interesting thread to read other peoples experiences

I’ve more recently come round to this type of thinking, eating less, better, higher welfare meat.

Same here (and same goes for the dog…)

My thinking around this has been very much guided by MrsIHN, who describes herself as a ‘recovering vegetarian’ and will only eat ‘happy meat’, i.e. free-range, ideally organic, ideally locally produced. It’s not cheap, but it tastes much better, and, for us, comes without any guilt about the method of production. I have to be honest and say we are lucky enough to be able to afford it though.

@Kuco – yup, fair point. You are clearly a cup half full type of person, whereas i always default to half empty (one of my many shortcomings).

The seaspiracy fishing documentary on Netflix is really worth watching. Eye opener for me!

I read the book – The Source Family: The Untold Story of Father Yod, Ya Ho Wa 13 and the Source Family, a great book about a wild time full of awesome hippy vibes and psychedelic music. Much of the early days centres on the fact the group ran a vegetarian restaurant on sunset boulevard in the early 70’s and John Lennon/Yoko, Zappa, Warren Beatty, Earth Wind and Fire etc all use to eat there regularly…

One line in the book – ‘it occurred to me I could live without anything dying’ and I thought, it will never be clearer put. That was in 2007.

@ thisisnotaspoon.
Lighten up man,nobody was proselytising,there were no extremists just a thread about not eating meat.A funny moment from a comedy show came to mind so I posted for a bit of fun.
Are some of you looking to be offended?

The seaspiracy fishing documentary on Netflix is really worth watching. Eye opener for me!

BBC Fact Check (not knocking the documentary, haven’t seen it, just saw this on the Beeb this morning)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56660823

Are some of you looking to be offended?

No more than some are looking to offend.

I noticed some people have mentioned Game Changers, which have also been debunked/fact checked on YouTube and Magazines, I watched it with some skepticism. But if it made you go vegetarian/vegan then fairplay to you.

BBC Fact Check (not knocking the documentary, haven’t seen it, just saw this on the Beeb this morning)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56660823

Ahh the BBC Government broadcating channel!
If the UK can’t stop bottom trawling in uk waters what hope do we have for other areas.
I see greenpeace have been sinking massive rocks in areas to try and combat the problem.
Worth a watch just the bycatch numbers alone are scary.

And why can’t I get this bloody quote function to work !!!

Ahh the BBC Government broadcating channel!

Is that a new one? We only have 1,2,4, CBBC and Cbeebies. Or are you making one of those accusations that people make about how the BBC at best panders to, or at worst is a direct mouthpiece of, the Government? Because they’re nonsense, and I’m sure you wouldn’t be that dumb.

It was never going to end well.

I noticed some people have mentioned Game Changers, which have also been debunked/fact checked on YouTube and Magazines, I watched it with some skepticism. But if it made you go vegetarian/vegan then fairplay to you.

There’s a problem with the whole netflix documentary production ecosystem.

This is why the BBC (and ITV, C4 etc) are great, Seaspiracy cost a fraction of what Blue Planet cost to make, and what it lacks in original footage and research* it makes up for with stock footage, way too mmuch cutting to interviews and shock value.

No one should watch Gamechangers as a source of facts, you should take any “edutainment” documentary the same way, but I do think you can take points from it. Eating tofu isn’t going to suddenly allow you to go on the battlign ropes for hours, run a marathon or become the world’s strongest man. That’s evidently going to be false, and much more about hard work. Just like you should never take a “debunked” video or article as being any better (“HEY, these 3 points from a 2 hour documentary are only partially true, just imagine how much I can convince you by extrapolation that the rest of it is FAKE NEWS if I SHOUT LOUDLY ENOUGH”). But what it does show (it’s central point) is that hey, these people are world champoins etc, and don’t eat meat. So the argument that a lot of people make that they are athletes/weekend-warriors/have physical jobs and need to eat meat is much harder to debunk.

Putting it crassly, Netflix is like taking illicit drugs to get a dopamine fix because it’s cheaper than going to a nice restaurant. You’re still paying for entertainment, and you’re entertained, but it’s not comparable.

*the BBC might not be directly doing research in the making of it’s natural history programming, but it is financially contributing to those academics to sit on a boat doing their research on whatever while they film, one wouldnt exist without the other.

@IHN
It would be easier to quote but it always goes wrong for me!

You are probably right that none of the killed animal would go to waste if it went to a meat processing plant.
If I am to believe my local butcher though, at least some of what I get for my dog would. They buy a carcass or part of it, butcher it, sell the meat and send the bones up to Glasgow (60miles away) to be incinerated. Same goes for chicken carcasses, although they do sell some of those. They give me the bones for free and 2 chicken carcasses for £1.

Re free-range organic meat, I used to buy my little terrier True Instinct nuggets made with free range chicken from Pets at Home but that meant buying from a retailer who thinks it’s ok to keep live animals in cages in a shop in order to profit from them.
Previous to that, I tried a couple of delivery companies that supplied free-range organic meat but they were based so far away from me that the meat would arrive pretty much thawed and there was the delivery and packaging to consider.
So now I buy this one frozen food from a pet shop based 40 miles away. Packaging is low. The meat arrives frozen. They only deliver once a month. I buy tripe, venison, wild boar, rabbit mostly.
I do buy her fish sometimes but not salmon and I’ve switched from salmon to krill oil.
I also buy her kefir which I don’t like doing but it does seem to do her good.
I try to buy an organic chicken from Tesco every week but if she gets one a quarter she’s lucky, they are never in stock. I am not convinced that Tesco have anywhere near decent standards either.

I could buy her organic meat from a farm in Perth but lots to consider there, transport, packaging and then I’m buying food people would eat. It’s pretty expensive too and I’m not convinced that that is better than buying the by-products.
She is quite good at finding her own food. Hunts mice and eats them and if she gets one, I give her less food. I don’t like the poor little mouse being killed but it’s a natural life and death and likely much better than the poor creature in the fridge had. We got told off about this today though so not sure I can take her to the field (it’s right across the road) anymore.

What I am trying to say is it is incredibly complex. I feel I try but I am only doing a tiny amount to try to live ethically, I do loads wrong – log burner, old petrol car, badly insulated house…
I think all of the above and the many other things many other people do is really just tinkering around the edges. The real problem is that whilst there are people on this planet, especially in the numbers in which we exist, most other species will suffer.

What I am trying to say is it is incredibly complex. I feel I try but I am only doing a tiny amount to try to live ethically, I do loads wrong – log burner, old petrol car, badly insulated house…
I think all of the above and the many other things many other people do is really just tinkering around the edges. The real problem is that whilst there are people on this planet, especially in the numbers in which we exist, most other species will suffer.

I think we can definitely agree on that.

Or are you making one of those accusations that people make about how the BBC at best panders to, or at worst is a direct mouthpiece of, the Government?

Best chat to my Brexity Tory voting mother who hates the BBC for its constant left wing, government hating, anti UK agenda. 🤣

If they can upset both sides, I suspect that they are getting something right

If they can upset both sides, I suspect that they are getting something right

I don’t buy that at all.

See the lockdown Proms debacle. People get upset over BBC portraying a black person in a costume drama. That may be getting something ‘right’, but most possibly not the the right, er, right.

Bottom line is it’s very, very trendy on the Right to bash the BBC constantly. They want it gone.

That doesn’t mean that the BBC is automatically fair or balanced or accurate or unbiased. It means that people are upset.

So if someone on ‘the left’ is upset because of the endless appearances of Nigel Fauxrage leading up to the referendum or because of the endless lack of scrutiny towards the sitting PM … does this mean that the BBC are ‘getting something right’ because also my Brexiteer uncle is apoplectic that the BBC made a documentary about the suffragettes and anyway all of his friends hate the BBC because ‘wokeism’? The latter is by far the trendingest tend on social media.

The BBC can get a lot of things ‘wrong’ by trying to please everyone. Maybe all things.

Bottom line is it’s very, very trendy on the Right to bash the BBC constantly.

It’s also very, very trendy on the Left.

That’s where I am at the moment, but have to say this has been a really interesting thread to read other peoples experiences

Can agree on that too!

I don’t see anything different or special about us other than power. Eating animals for food is very similar to racism or sexism (or some driver’s views on cyclists), in that an line is drawn between us and the other, and then it’s OK to do what you want to the other.

how many other species do you think are having ethical debates about their impact on other species? I’ve heard a few people suggest that “speciesism” is just like racism or sexism – I can’t quite work out if those people are actually racist misogynists or genuinely believe that fencing a field of crops to keep animals out, is as bad as excluding black people from an area of town…

you should never take a “debunked” video or article as being any better

But when it’s done by an expert in that field I have a tendency to believe them a bit more.

Really made me question what I eat. Gonna start with the Jamie Oliver book

Eating books is certainly not the answer.

But when it’s done by an expert in that field I have a tendency to believe them a bit more.

The joy of experts and the scientific method.

You could then produce a glossy video with talking heads going through all the papers they’d not managed to get published too, pointing out papers supporting the original point etc. Debunking videos/articles are frequently just as clickbaity as the originals.

Like I said, balanced reporting doesn’t get the views in the age of Netflix and Youtube, people want one-sided hyped conflict.

There’s a problem with the whole netflix documentary production ecosystem.

That’s why I only watch ethically sourced free-range documentaries these days. I’m thinking of giving them up completely but, y’know, David Attenborough…

Wow Cougar,it was just a light hearted comment,I haven’t expressed an opinion either way.

Sorry, I’m probably over-sensitive over that particular joke as I had it from my then-girlfriend’s dad over Sunday lunch every single bloody week for about three years. It makes my teeth itch.

i tell thee what gets my goat….. people who instantly turn their noses up at a ‘vegan’ product.
…
its like its engrained in certain people/generations that if its got no meat its going to be tasteless/rubbish/not worth eating.

It doesn’t annoy me per se – as I said earlier, I don’t really care what anyone else eats – but I do find it a bit weird. And it’s really quite common.

Random example out of many: I went for breakfast one day with my mate Dave and one of Dave’s friends. Got to the café, Dave ordered a veggie sausage sandwich. His mate looked at him surprised, “I didn’t know you were vegetarian!” Dave replied, “I’m not, I just like them.” The guy was genuinely astonished, like it hadn’t entered his head that it was possible for a non-vegetarian to eat veggie food.

The next visit, Dave ordered pork sausages. He likes those too. And to my mind this makes far more sense. No-one would ever go “wow, I didn’t know you didn’t eat beef!” if you ordered a chicken burger. You don’t eat meat if you’re a veggie, so if you’re not a veggie you don’t eat not-meat? Being omnivorous isn’t a restrictive diet, that’s literally what omni- means.

Another that always jumps to mind is one I’ve told on here more than once so I’ll abridge it: I went for a curry with work and halfway through my boss suddenly went “where’s your meat?!” like it was impossible to have a meal without it. I replied I was vegetarian and then had to put with being variously cross-examined and explained at as to why I was wrong for the next half hour when all I wanted to eat my vegetable madras in peace. This is all too common too, it’s got to the point where I think I’m going to have to start lying about it (if we’re ever allowed out again) or get some cards printed a la Thomas F. Wilson.

@cougar – the mind boggles!

Another argument is if you dont eat meat, why do you eat sausages/nuggets/burgers etc that contain no meat. Items that are traditionally meat based.

I then have to explain that they need to call them these things to allow the brains of meat eaters to even remotely consider trying them. If it was called a pea protein stick, instead of a plant sausage, joe average wouldnt touch it with a barge pole.

A while back i got some Vegan doughnuts for the office. One colleague turned his nose up. The reality of it was, they tasted better than a supermarket doughnut and had a combo of apple and raspberry filling, which surely trumps a single fruit filling?!?!

Certain things do get on my wick, but equally, each to their own. I am happy i am doing my bit, i just wish more people would get involved.

Another argument is if you dont eat meat, why do you eat sausages/nuggets/burgers etc that contain no meat. Items that are traditionally meat based.

It’s essentially the same argument as above. Why eat a chicken burger when a hamburger is traditionally made from beef, or a turkey sausage which is traditionally pork?

It’s a nonsense and it very quickly falls down under scrutiny. Whilst it might have been how they started there’s nothing inherently beefy about burgers or porky about sausages, They’re just a convenient way of packaging (usually) protein. It’s handy to have something round and flat if you’re going to be shoving it in a bun. If that can be beef or chicken or fish then there’s absolutely no reason why it can’t be Quorn or breadcrumbed mixed veg or something – anything – else.

You’ve been able to get dabs at chip shops for as long as I can remember, they’re essentially potato burgers and no-one ever whined that they weren’t meat. So the complaint boils down to either “you can’t have something that shape that isn’t meat” or “you can’t have something that name that isn’t meat”, both of which are patently absolutely ludicrous.

If you were passing off – selling them pretending they were something else – then that would be wrong (and illegal). But absolutely no-one is doing that so if that’s the argument then it’s a straw man. “I was shocked that my vegetarian sausages didn’t have meat in them, it’s a disc race!” said no-one, ever.

… ie,

“I couldn’t be vegetarian because I like meat too much!”

“If you’re vegetarian why do you still eat things that look like meat?”

Pick one, you can’t have them both.

i need to have another bash at this. following the last ‘v-thread’ i went and bought a load of lentils, beans etc, made some seitan, froze some curries, but its just tailed off again. reason being i dont have the imagination to make even easy stuff from scratch. i’ll go have a butchers (no pun intended) at the ‘easy veggie recipe’ thread and see if i can find some inspiration.

and yes i know its easy enough to make these recipes, i really dont know why i havent kept it up. mebbes a non-veggie wife so its just easier to eat what she makes when im pushed for time? laziness?

last time we had a thai meal i chose veggie. it was no way as tasty as my wifes meat dish which was a shame, i wanted it to be better. i actually do prefer the taste of meat, and want to like v-food more, but it doesnt taste as good to me.

and theres also the nutrition side of things, in my head veggie meals wont give me enough protein. almost certainly rubbish, so what are the higher protein veggie ingredients that are easy to rustle something up with?

bear with me, i’ll try again….

Lentils, beans, peas, nuts. Chuck any/all of them in a curry or chili and chow down like a wide load.

I was a veggie for 10 years. Started off as I was a skint student and couldn’t afford anything decent really. Fast forward to living on the Ardnamurchan and began hunting and fishing and started eating meat again. No issues with killing animals but only buy from my local butchers now. More of a weekly feast than an everyday meat fest for me.

I think it started with a girl.. In the mid eighties I met a girl who was anti-vivisection as well as being a vegetarian. We dated and lived together for some time.. After our break up I remained a vegetarian for some time afterwards. Then in my thirties I swung back into eating meat. Now in my fifties I have returned to being a vegetarian. both my kids gave up eating meat around 5 years ago so at the same time both my wife and I did the same.
I was considering going back before then, I had spent some time working in China. Some of the eating habits applauded me to the point that I began the refuse to go eat out with our customers.

Now I’m very happy Vegetarian.. Just about to order a veggie curry takeaway

still can’t understand why you would want to kill an animal for food/sport.

So you dont think our species is a product of nature ?.

Every other species seems to manage in their place without getting all heartfelt and soppy over it.
We eat meat because we’re designed to.

But I see what you did…/Kill Nice get out clause 😉

Hang on, let me get my bingo card.

We eat meat because we’re designed to.

And some of us don’t eat meat because we’ve evolved brains that can make educated, informed choices rather than going “Grok got pointy teeth, Grok got eyes at front, Grok eat meat. Grok chase cow, cow slow, Grok eat cow, cow tasty, cow make Grok big”.

You’re surely trolling (because if not then why are you even on this thread?), you can’t actually be dim enough to be presenting that as a serious argument can you? Humans are highly adaptable omnivores, we can and do thrive on any old shit despite what either Robert Atkins, Gillian McKeith or Morrissey might have you believe. It’s how we got where we are.

We’re designed to do a lot of things. We’re designed to shag anything that moves for a start.

a combo of apple and raspberry filling, which surely trumps a single fruit filling?!?!

Mind. Blown.

i dont have the imagination to make even easy stuff from scratch

You have an Internet connection, Amazon, and a lot of recommendations on this thread and others. You don’t need an imagination.

As you touch on – batch cook. Make a meal for four, fill the freezer.

(Oddly, I could’ve sworn you were vegan for some reason?)

and theres also the nutrition side of things, in my head veggie meals wont give me enough protein. almost certainly rubbish,

It is (where did I put that bingo card, I had it a minute ago…)

It’s quite possible to eat a good vegan diet, a good vegetarian diet, or a good omnivore diet. It’s equally possible to eat a bad one of all of those. Most people (in the Western world) eat too much protein anyway, so it likely won’t hurt to eat a bit less. I took the ‘meat substitute’ route but as kayla said there’s plenty of options. Again, we have Google:

https://www.eatingwell.com/article/2053610/high-protein-vegan-diet-meal-plan/

“High-Protein Vegan Foods:
Many of these vegan protein foods are also high in fiber, include healthy fats and have plenty of other important nutrients to make for a balanced diet.

Beans: Whether you prefer black beans, kidney beans, chickpeas or another variety, this healthy protein provides about 15 grams of protein per cup.

Lentils: This high-fiber legume provides 18 grams of protein per cup.

Tofu: High in protein and calcium, 1 cup of tofu packs in 20 grams of protein.

Edamame: Easy and convenient, 1 cup of edamame provides 17 grams of protein.

Spinach: This low-calorie vegetable provides 5 grams of protein per cup.

Quinoa: Containing all the essential amino acids, ½ cup cooked quinoa has 4 grams of protein.

Tempeh: Made from fermented soybeans, tempeh provides 33 grams of protein per cup.

Seitan: Made from wheat gluten, a ½-cup serving of seitan packs in 45 grams of protein.

Nuts: A ¼-cup portion of nuts, like almonds, has about 7 grams of protein.

Nut butter: High in healthy fats, 2 tablespoons provides 7 grams of protein”

I’m not a veggie and if you’d have asked me 5 years ago id’ve never even considered reducing my consumption.

I do actively reduce now – nothing to do with the environmental impact, doesn’t bother me at all – more so for ethical.

And some of us don’t eat meat because we’ve evolved brains that can make educated, informed choices rather than going “Grok got pointy teeth, Grok got eyes at front, Grok eat meat. Grok chase cow, cow slow, Grok eat cow, cow tasty, cow make Grok big”.

Oh bollocks.
Fair enough, i understand the ethics of it, but dont lie to me or yourself that its an evolution thing.

You’re surely trolling

I’m troling. Nay, i think thats yourself.

And then out with the insults, boy, thats a surefire argument winner there. And a sure sign of the troll behaviour.
Im answering a point another member made, simple as. Then you come along, throw out some insults, call me the troll and stick your big fat nose into it, insults and all.

Maybe you should have stuck a ‘ only Vegetarians can reply’ into the title.