What is happening in Gaza is a war crime

Nothing new. Incinerating Dresden wasn’t done to Marquess of Queensbury rules.

are you saying that just because atrocities have happened in the past thats OK? and the mistakes shouldn’t be learnt from?

“Only the dead have seen the end of war”

Who said that and how long ago?

No. I’m saying killing people while avoiding being killed yourself isn’t a novel concept. It’s the basic principle of war.

I’m sure they’re killing fewer civilians than if they carpet bombed the place overnight, then called in the Americans to finish it off the next day. About 24,500 less.

pk-ripper – Member

………I cannot agree with statements such as “war criminals” and “israelis are nazis”, and I struggle to see how anyone else can.

No pk-ripper, not people doing it from “nice comfy offices, based on media reports”. People who are basing their claims on what is actually happening – not on Israeli government claims, as you obviously are.

As a result of reports which the UN has received from it’s relief workers in the area, Israel stands accused specifically of ‘war crimes’. I make no apology for choosing to believe the UN relief workers before the claims of the Israeli government in Jerusalem. Furthermore, the International Committee of the Red Cross, which is probably the most neutral organisation in the world has backed up the claims.

On the question of a ‘Palestinian Holocaust’ and the comparison with the Nazis. Again, the accusations are made by highly qualified people.

This is what Richard Falk the United Nations Human Rights Investigator and professor of International Law at Princeton University has said, quote :

“There is little doubt that the Nazi Holocaust was as close to unconditional evil as has been revealed throughout the entire bloody history of the human species………………..Against this background, it is especially painful for me, as an American Jew, to feel compelled to portray the ongoing and intensifying abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel through a reliance on such an inflammatory metaphor as ëholocaust.í”

This is the full article, but I don’t suppose you’ll read it as it says things which you probably don’t want to hear.

Slouching Toward a Palestinian Holocaust

Only those who lose wars are war criminals. If you win you are not prosecuted

This is the full article, but I don’t suppose you’ll read it as it says things which you probably don’t want to hear.

Jews can be drama queens too shocker.

Let me know when the death toll hits 1,000,000 and I’ll concede that holocaust is appropriate.

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Jews can be drama queens too shocker.

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Yeah, right, the United Nations Human Rights Investigator is a drama queen 🙄

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You just carry on believing that bollox and keep your head firmly in the sand.

Or wherever it is that it’s stuck.

What bollocks is that? The bollocks that 500 deaths in a minor military action doesn’t equate to 6,000,000 deaths through systematic extermination? That bollocks?

erm, I’m not basing it on israeli government claims at all, I’m sitting in an office, and therefore specifically saying that I cannot form a formal opinion one way or the other. And the OP equally so.

If the UN is aware of war crimes perpetrated by Israel I would fully expect them to prosecute however necessary.

And I will happily read the article when I’m not in the office. However, I would like to suggest, regardless of who writes an article, that that is merely another media, and i could probably provide you with any number of conflicting media, which I could then use to support any point I was making. Whether you or I give more credence to one or another is entirely subjective.

So, therefore I refer you back to the point I made earlier – we, on here, are all reliant on secondary information, media, and it is human nature to read selectively and with generosity to something they inherently believe in. That is as much what I am challenging as anything else.

I would also draw your attention to the fundamental rule of justice. Israel stands accused of war crimes, which as you’ve so clearly suggested the UN is able to progress and try against. As yet they have not admitted any, have not been tried for any, and no prosecution or defence has been laid open for scrutiny by both parties, so at the present time, the only reachable verdict can be “not guilty”, surely?

Big Dummy’s post is by far the most measured and objective on here. Emotions seem to rule quite high in the rest.

5thElefant – Member
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What bollocks is that?

The bollocks about dismissing the UN Human Rights Investigator as a “drama queen”.

I thought my post made that pretty obvious.

Still, you if you couldn’t figure that out, then I can hardly expect you to understand very much.
You best leave it to the tabloids to do your thinking for you, eh ?

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If the UN is aware of war crimes perpetrated by Israel I would fully expect them to prosecute….

Why’s that ? I wouldn’t.

Unless it’s got the full backing of the US government there’s no chance of that happening.

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However, I would like to suggest, regardless of who writes an article, that that is merely another media

Erm, no. It’s not “just another media” article. You might not agree with it but, it’s the informed opinion of a United Nations human rights investigator and a professor of international law. Of course it doesn’t mean he’s right. But his opinion carries considerably more weight with me than that of an Israeli government spokesman, or indeed some of the herberts on here.

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Needless to say, no matter how overwhelming the evidence against Israel is, some will always choose not to believe it.
Even if Israel was to be successfully prosecuted at The Hague, some would still argue that the trial was flawed, the evidence fabricated, etc etc

Afterall, even after Nuremberg and all the evidence, some still argue that the Nazi persecution the Jews never happened.

They all died of cholera don’t you know ……….

I think ernie_lynch has been pretty accurate from I been reading and seeing. I don’t have the time or expertise to discus the horror which is going on in Gazza, but independent reports coming back pretty much are what ernie_lynch has been linking here.

I am also sickened by the way some people on here can be so casual with regards to children and families being murdered because of their race.

Perhaps if Massa didn’t locate all there military targets beneith hospitals, schools and amoung housing areas casulty’s wouldn’t be so high.

I wonder when the UK extremists will react to this.

What measures do people think appropriate for Israel to take?

I am also sickened by the way some people on here can be so casual with regards to children and families being murdered because of their race.

They’re the same race as Israelis. Arabs. So it ain’t that. Maybe it’s because the Palestinians voted in a group whose fundamental aim is to attack Israel? That would do it.

What measures do people think appropriate for Israel to take ?

Complying with the Geneva Convention would be a good start.

“What measures do people think appropriate for Israel to take? “

Nuke.

Complying with the Geneva Convention would be a good start.

How? What do you suggest is a proportinate responce?

Maybe I am a bit dim but as I see it.

Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip.
Palestines voted Hamas into power.
Palestines started to lop rockets into Israel.
Israel invaded Gaza.

So if the France decided that many, many years ago they controlled Britain and as such wanted to destroy Britain and re occupy it. That would all be fine and dandy?

Even if they started lobbing rockets at you and your family as your sat down watching the tv at night. Thats all good because the normans were here years ago! Surely this would mean war between Britain and France? Surely?

Or maybe everyone would agree that it was the Frances right to try to kill us as long as it was not too many?

sofatester
“Only the dead have seen the end of war”

Who said that and how long ago?

plato said it , aa lloooonnngggg time ago

It isn’t quite like that shands.

Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip.

Israel retained effective military, economic, and administrative control over the Gaza Strip and therefore continued to occupy the Gaza Strip, even after the implementation of its “Disengagement Plan”

Quote :

“The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process . . . . Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda .”
Dov Weisglass, Senior Advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

Israel has maintained a blockade of Gaza in which nothing can go in or come out. This blockade is illegal – there is no disputing that.

Palestines voted Hamas into power.

Indeed they did. Hamas was encouraged by the US to participate in the elections. These were the most free, fair, and democratic elections ever held in any Arab country anyway in the world.

Palestines started to lop rockets into Israel.

The rockets are in response to illegal action by the Israelis. The Palestinians have an unalienable right to defend themselves. The Palestinians agreed to a ceasefire with Israel. Israel broke the ceasefire on the 4th of November. One of the terms of the ceasefire was that Israel lift her illegal blockade of Gaza. Israel never complied with that term.

Israel invaded Gaza.

Yes, Israel attacked Gaza by land, sea and air.

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btw, I think you’re a little confused about who lived where first.

richc : “chewkw I know from previous posts you are a fascist pillock …”

Eh? What did I do or say?

It’s a war you know.

😯

What did I do or say?

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Let me try and help you with that one.

Does trying to justify the slaughter of civilians by a right-wing racist state ring any bells ?

and there’s little old me thinking they put up the security screen in response to suicide bombers killing innocent civilians. Or is it that Jewish civilians are not innocent in your twisted logic!

I don’t know if that comment was aimed at me shands, but since I don’t actually know what you’re talking about,
I think I’ll leave it there.

life is precious, any life. So why would Hamas have the right to try and kill anyone. So simple, if Hamas really wants to stop theyre people being hurt and killed. If they stopped the rocket attacks. Israel would have no reason to be there and as such would be forced to retreat. Surely thats not rocket science (pardon the pun).

I cannot support the taking of life (or the threat to life) by either side in this conflict (or indeed in any conflict) and in this particular conflict there is so much propaganda behind even reports by learned persons that without first hand experience of the situation it is impossible to be 100% certain of forming any opinion. It is probably fair to say that some peoples politics and beliefs are so entrenched that they are unable to concede any point at all.

Couple of questions:

ernie_lynch ~ do you support Hamas (and their Iranian backers) to the extent that you agree that the Israeli state should be obliterated and Israelis wiped from the face of the earth? Not meaning to pick on you but you do seem to be one of the more vociferous supporters of Hamas and you seem to give the impression that you believe you are better informed than anyone speaking against you.

Also, have Israel blockaded the Gaza boundary with Egypt such that “…nothing can go in or come out.“?
I ask this because I do not know the answer and I haven’t seen reference to this particular boundary (except reference to a network of tunnels).

life is precious, any life. So why would Hamas have the right to try and kill anyone. So simple, if Hamas really wants to stop theyre people being hurt and killed. If they stopped the rocket attacks. Israel would have no reason to be there and as such would be forced to retreat. Surely thats not rocket science (pardon the pun).

You really don’t have a clue, do you? Do you think that Hamas decided to start firing rockets just for grins? Gaza is a big refugee camp, full of people driven out of their homes, and bombed on a daily basis year after year. Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. At what point do you accept that they have a right to defend themselves? Or is it their fate to just lie down and let the Israelis walk over them however they want?

“Do you think that Hamas decided to start firing rockets just for grins?“

I don’t think any of it is done for ‘grins’? (Daft thing to suggest really, DrJ).

“Gaza is a big refugee camp, full of people driven out of their homes, and bombed on a daily basis year after year.“

But it’s not really, is it. Although Gaza may contain a number of refugee camps, there are also structured towns and cities there. To say Gaza is bombed on a daily basis year after year is simply not true.

“ Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. At what point do you accept that they have a right to defend themselves?“

Is firing rockets indiscriminately over the border actually defending themselves? Against what?

“Or is it their fate to just lie down and let the Israelis walk over them however they want?“

It certainly shouldn’t be and this is where the Palestinians do need the support of the wider world. Unfortunately, it appears to me that the only excuse that Israel has to start and continue this military action is because of the rocket attacks. It may seem simplistic to say stop the rocket attacks and you stop the battle but by stopping the rocket attacks it does take away Israel’s only justification for the current action. Whilst there is a huge outcry against the Israeli bullies at the moment, in a lot of peoples eyes the military action is justifiable because of the Hamas rocket attacks. Take away the rocket attacks and you remove that justification. Internationally, Israel would loose what public support it has for their current military action immediately and could not justify any further action.

Huge international pressure should then be placed on Israel to allow borders to be opened and policed by a multi-national force. Of course, you then return to the problem of trust. Given what has been happening in recent years, can Israel trust Hamas to use the open borders solely for legitimate purposes.

Hamas need to stop the rocket attacks. Israel need to let the Palestinians live and trade freely.

But, Hamas aren’t going to recognise Israel and Israel aren’t going to trust Hamas so, what is the answer?

Given the current situation you may say that it is forgivable to think of Hitler as a visionary.

Big Dummy nice post interesting an informed
Ernie Lynch … you save me having to post ta
5th Elefant … I only hope you are saying these things as a wind up very tedious very wrong … i hope you know this

psling – since you didn’t follow the reference I gave earlier, I will quote for you a passage that describes what Gaza is. If you want to call it something other than a camp, be my guest.

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In the U.S., all our TV pundits and major newspapers ever tell us about the Gaza Strip is that 1. it’s a Hamas stronghold, and 2. it’s the most densely-populated piece of real estate on earth. But they don’t tell us that it wasn’t always like that. They don’t mention that Gaza wasn’t a stronghold of Islamic nationalism till Israel’s occupation administration in Gaza funded Hamas as a counterweight to the secular nationalism of the PLO, then engaged in a phony 15-year “peace process” that hopelessly compromised the secular nationalist parties that had supported a compromise peace with Israel, leaving Hamas as the only credible resistance to the continuing occupation.

They don’t tell you either about the time before the Gaza Strip became the most densely-populated place on earth; when Gaza was a small coastal city, rather than a moon scape,

and its environs were wheat fields and orchards – cultivating citrus products, dates, grapes, figs and mulberries – rather than refugee camps.

And they DEFINITELY don’t mention how the transformation in Gaza’s fortunes came about. They don’t tell you where those 1.5 million people now squashed into the Gaza Strip came from. Because they come from what is now Israel, and they didn’t leave their homes there voluntarily in order to spend their days in an overcrowded, bombarded slum. Eighty per cent of the people in the Gaza Strip are refugees. These are the people who have been expelled from Israel since 1948, and always had to be expelled according to the logic of Zionism, if a Jewish state was to be created in Palestine, where most people happen not to be Jewish. The vast majority of the people in the Gaza Strip are the original inhabitants of the towns and villages of southern and coastal Israel, who took refuge from Zionist armies in Gaza City because it was the last southern city left in Palestinian hands in 1948.

In short, the people in the Gaza Strip who are today firing rockets at the towns of southern Israel are, overwhelmingly, the children and grandchildren of the Palestinian people who were expelled by Israel from those very same towns in order to gerrymander a Jewish majority where one did not naturally exist.

Yesterday, rockets from Gaza fell on the Israeli city of Ashkelon. Benny Tziper in the Hebrew-language version of Ha’aretz online was the only person I saw publicly mention that the Israeli city of Ashkelon was, until quite recently, the Palestinian city of Majdal al-Asqalan

whose Arab population was expelled within the lifetime of many present-day Israelis to the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip:

[…]A nice man was there at the entrance to the museum, an invalid of IDF from the Yom Kippur War, who was born and lived all his life in Ashkelon. From his knowledge and enthusiasm one could tell that he loves the city very much. He had no problem telling me how in 1953 the Arabs were expelled, and the long process of looking for a new name for the place started (the Arab name was Majdl), till it was decided to call the place Ashkelon. The entire communications between the authorities regarding the cleansing of the city of Arabs and Hebrewisation of the name is exhibited in the museum. I think that nobody makes the connection today between the fact that the Qassams land on Ashkelon and the fact that poor Arabs who did nothing wrong to anybody were put on trucks and expelled from their city to Gaza fifty five years ago, and since then they are there and Ashkelon is here. And this did not happen in wartime or as a result of hostilities, but from a cold calculation that the area must be cleansed of Arabs. There is a picture in the museum that shows the Arabs sitting and waiting in front of the of Israeli military government building. It sends shivers down my spine because it happens in the year I was born. And it is really, really hard for me to realize that at the time that my parents were happy with my birth, other people were put on trucks and expelled from their homes.[…]

DrJ wrote

If you want to call it something other than a camp, be my guest

That’s exactly what I’d call it. The world’s biggest one. I’m not going to be surprised when I hear the Israelis have started building showers and ovens to save on expensive rockets – maybe once the Americans realise they can’t afford to spend billions propping them up any more.

5th Elefant … I only hope you are saying these things as a wind up very tedious very wrong … i hope you know this

The tedium works both ways.

I’d be quite happy to agree that it was all very bad indeed if half-wits stopped comparing it to the systematic extermination of millions of people. Compared to that its completely irrelevant. It does their argument no good at all. At best it makes them appear unable to do sums, utterly ignorant of recent history or simple anti-semites. That, I must admit, is utter argument bait to me.

psling – Member

Couple of questions:ernie_lynch ~

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Well since you’re asking me a direct question, I reckon you deserve a direct answer (shame some people won’t answer my direct questions)

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do you support Hamas (and their Iranian backers) to the extent that you agree that the Israeli state should be obliterated and Israelis wiped from the face of the earth?

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I fail to see why I should base my moral judgement on whether or not Iran supports something. After all, Iran supported the war waged by the Coalition Forces to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan – should I have opposed that war solely on those grounds ?

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But the answer to your question is yes, I support Hamas in their fight against Israel. For over 40 years Israel has violated international law. It has illegally occupied territories and refused to comply with the Geneva Convention. It still acts illegally to this day, from the illegal withholding of tax receipts, to the illegal blockade of Gaza. As I’ve said before, the Palestinian people have an unalienable right, enshrined in international law, to fight a hostile foreign power. What other nation on Earth would be expected to do nothing whilst another nation tried to strangle them with a blockade ? Would Britain sit back and do nothing if another nation had sealed her borders by land, sea and air ?

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On the question of whether “the Israeli state should be obliterated”, the answer again is yes. The destruction of the Zionist State and the establishment of a free, democratic, secular Palestinian State, where all Palestinians, whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Jew, can live, is as morally imperative as the destruction of the Apartheid State was – and the Zionist State is immeasurably more brutal than the Apartheid State.

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And yes, I’m fully aware that Hamas wishes to establish an Islamic State, a problem which cannot be ignored. But I am also aware that Hamas are pragmatic and open to negotiations. Their repeated willingness to enter negotiations concerning ceasefires (or ‘calms’ as they call them) and their excellent record of abiding by them, is proof of this.

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Furthermore, it should not be forgotten that it was the US and Israel which destroyed the power and influence of the secular Fatah faction of the PLO. Years of determination that Fatah should be allowed to achieve nothing guaranteed that. As did the abuse and humiliation of it’s leader Yasser Arafat, with his imprisonment in the ruins of his Ramallah Compound until he was finally murdered by the Israelis.

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Remember the glee and joy with which George Bush welcomed the death of Yasser Arafat ? And how he claimed to the world that it was Yasser Arafat who had held back the Palestinian people, and how the Palestinian people could now move forward ? Unbelievably now, it’s one of the aims of the Israeli operation in Gaza to re-establish Fatah there.

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It’s also worth pointing out that in the 1980s when the US was supporting and encouraging Islamic opposition to the secular government of Najibullah in Afghanistan, Israel was supporting and encouraging Hamas in it’s opposition to the secular Fatah faction of the PLO.

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On the question of the blockade and whether really “nothing can go in or come out” The answer is nothing can go in or come out without the explicit approval of Israel. Israel does sometimes lifts the blockade for a few hours. Sometimes it lets things through, sometimes it doesn’t. It is completely illegal and in violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. It has been described as a “crime against humanity” by UN Human Rights Council’s investigator.

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you seem to give the impression that you believe you are better informed than anyone speaking against you.

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Not at all. I don’t believe that for a minute, and I fail to see why should have come to that conclusion. Indeed far from it – I believe that most of the Zionist apologists are fully aware of the facts. Although I have to say that I’m pretty stunned how uniformed some people are about the plight of the Palestinians.

Still, I guess that’s one of the reasons why the Israelis get away with what they get away with, wouldn’t you say ?

5thElefant – Member

……if half-wits stopped comparing it to the systematic extermination of millions of people.

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You appear to be acting like a ‘half-wit’ yourself 5thElefant, by pretending that the only thing the Nazis ever did was to kill ‘millions of people’.

Were they still not Nazis in the 1930s before they had killed ‘millions of people’ ?

What were they during that period then ?

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If it makes you feel better, how about comparing the Israelis today, with the Nazis in Germany during the 1930s ?

Were they still not Nazis in the 1930s before they had killed ‘millions of people’ ?

In that case why not compare the Israelis to the British, the Americans, the South Africans or any number of other states that have committed similar despicable acts against their enemies?

By suggesting the Israelis are like Nazis ‘before they started murdering millions of people’ clearly implies that’s what’s next. Which it quite clearly isn’t.

That is the main thing that makes me want to argue the side of the Israelis. Your argument is based on a blatant lie.

If it makes you feel better, how about comparing the Israelis today, with the Nazis in Germany during the 1930s ?

Lets compare them to the British in the Boer War. We were much worse than the Israelis are now, so it allows you some dramatic licence without looking like a prat.

I’ve already made comparison on here with the Boer War – prat.

clearly implies that’s what’s next

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No it doesn’t you wally (I’m enjoying these low level insults btw ) No one is saying that they are going to build gas chambers – don’t be so ridiculous.

The comment has been made that the Israelis are acting like Nazis in their attitude towards the Palestinians.

And as I’ve pointed out before, that comment has been made by the United Nations Human Rights Investigator – himself a Jew.

No it doesn’t you wally (I’m enjoying these low level insults btw 8))

Very gracious of you. I’ll see if I can slip in a few more for your entertainment.

No one is saying that they are going to build gas chambers – don’t be so ridiculous.

ScoobysM8 got the reference and suggested exactly that just a few posts above.

The comment has been made that the Israelis are acting like Nazis in their attitude towards the Palestinians.

They’re the enemy numbnuts. People treat the enemy like enemies.

And as I’ve pointed out before, that comment has been made by the United Nations Human Rights Investigator – himself a Jew.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… jews can be drama queens too.

How about Apartheid South Africa? Israel is a lot like those fellas.

Now we must be able to agree on that? You fat anti-semitic humus eating bleeding-heart liberal.

I’ve made the comparison with Apartheid South Africa more times than I care to count.

In fact, if you use that little wheel on your mouse and scroll up a few inches, you see that I’ve refer to the Apartheid State 5 posts up.

So you’re blind as well as stupid then ?