What is happening in Gaza is a war crime

Just watching channel 4 news about the Red Cross working in Gaza. I couldnt believe my eyes and ears when the Chief of mission for the Red Cross in Gaza described how the Israeli army stopped them taking ambulances into Gaza to rescue 4 starving children who had been sitting with there dead mothers for 2 days. Forcing the Red cross to evacuate the children on a donkey cart.

What the hell are the Israelis doing this is a crime against humanity this is a war crime all armies are supposed to look after civilians in a war.

Any Israelis on this forum what the hell is your army doing in your name. There was a thread recently asking are the Israelis the new nazis well all I can say is YES they are Gaza is the new Auschwitz.

Its a bloody war, terrible things happen by accident or deliberate action, sadly terrible things happen to kids in this country, and we are not haveing a war, just be glad the media is allowed to report, whats happening, not like our wars, where there are hidden facts, and people got killed, on both sides.

WHY CAN WE JUST NOT HAVE PEACE, ON EARTH.

iam not an israeli or an arab, just a normal chap.

Don’t worry, the highly paid Middle East Peace Envoy will sort it all out.

Who blurr, he couldnt sort out the uk.

Oh, he sorted out the UK alright, and now we are enjoying the benefits of his expertise.

They say rats abandon a sinking ship….

D’you know, I’m really surprised on one has started a mahoosive thread on the current Gaza situation already. You’d have thought that all the views would have been aired by now….

Safe Haven to all the non-combatants and c**k punches all round for the people who don’t know what to do with themselves unless there is a war on.

Then nuke the place from orbit.

It’s the only way to be sure.

Will now wait for my Nobel Peace prize. **** Yeah!!

Sadly there will be war crimes being committed all over the world, not just in Gaza.

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project – Member

……..just be glad the media is allowed to report, whats happening, not like our wars…….

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The media is most definitely not allowed to report.

Quote :

“Israel argues that excluding the international media from Gaza is helpful because foreign journalists are unethical and biased in their reporting.

Foreign journalists are “unprofessional” and take “questionable reports at face value without checking”, said Danny Seaman, who heads Israel’s government press office, which vets and issues permits to foreign correspondents.”

Deal to admit journalists aborted

The only reason we know about the incident which pantsonfire is referring to, is because the Israelis haven’t yet figured out a way of silencing the International Committee of the Red Cross.

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Although it would appear that the Israelis are working on that one – apparently the Israelis can drive the Red Cross out of Gaza by shelling their schools and aid convoys.

Seaman… that sounds an apropriate name

That’s one side of the story but let’s hear what the Israelis have to say about that.

Don’t worry, the highly paid Middle East Peace Envoy will sort it all out.

Though your hatred for all things red knows no bound Flash, even for you, that was a cheap shot.

I watched that documentary the other night about the Polish “Anne Frank” and while I understand the Israelis’ frustration with Hamas, you have to wonder, seeing the footage of Jews rounded up like animals in a ghetto, picked off at will often at the mere whim of the Nazis, do they not have any sense of irony (in no comedic form) when they stand back and take a look at their actions in Gaza.

While it is nowhere near “history repeating itself”, the state of Israel is committing war crimes but I fear, noone from any Israeli government will ever be held to account for it in The Hague.

I do not follow the logic that says that jews should be especially ashamed of shelling civilian populations, denying access for the Red Cross, using white phospohorous in populated areas, attacking mosques on the offchance that they contain arms caches etc etc etc etc etc because of the holocaust.

Yes, a minor skirmish with a few hundred deaths is exactly like gas chambers, ovens and industrialised murder.

As much as it is a crime it is moreso a chuffing disgrace.

If you were a young man in palestine right now I am sure you are more likely to want to take up arms against israel as a result of this continued action wthan before hich I would assume is not the best of outcomes for any of the sides. I know I would.

We need to get Team America to Gazza….oh wait they are already there.

as a middle aged and middle class man in Norway i want to take up arms against the Isrealis

Go for it.

except i’m a pussy with a big gob

I agree that what is happening in Gazza is a war crime however this is a bit of a strong topic for STW and potentially their sponsors TBH.

chewkw – Member
That’s one side of the story but let’s hear what the Israelis have to say about that.

chewkw I know from previous posts you are a fascist pillock, however even for you this is a good one. The Red Cross is an International organization renowned for its neutral stance, hence for them to make a statement like this means that its got a 99% chance of being accurate.

Whereas the Israelis govt, might have a reason to lie about this don’t you think.

Really scary thing is considering what is getting out, and is broadcast by the BBC which is now heavily censored by the Govt, we are only be seeing the tip of the iceberg.

I agree that what is happening in Gazza is a war crime

Couldn’t agree more – the taxman should just leave him alone.

hora, are you suggesting that STW is sponsored by an international conspiracy of zionist elders who will use their shadowy financial powers to close down this thread?

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The Israeli government’s politics and security cabinet are a bunch of genocidal bastards who are committing war crimes and should be indicted before the ICC in the Hague along with Shimon Perez.

The Israeli people should be ashamed of their government and what it is doing in their name in order to get elected (anyone who doesn’t realise this is an election campaign for dominance in the Knesset, not a security campaign is very naieve indeed).

But the problem is that anyone who criticises the actions of Israel is branded an anti-semitic, as for most people Isreali = Jewish (obviously ignoring the people of Israeli nationality who are muslim, christian and even Seikh!).

Yeah OK, Hamas include a nasty bunch of Iran supported murders, but they also provide health care, education and were democratically elected – you can’t demand free and fair elections then demand that the people pick someone else if you don’t like the result! Especially after your illegal occupation of thier land and your oppression of their people destroys the moderate views giving Hamas a huge popularity.

But of course nothing but the diplomatic equivalent of tutting gently will happen, America won’t let the international community actually DO anything as that would undermine the “Iran/Muslim evil, Isreal good” subtle dialetic that the US pedal.

The UN and the USA should get off their pathetic asses and instead of wringing thier hands whimpering “oh but its all such a mess” they should send in Peacekeepers to establish proper border patrols, eleiminate rocket attacks from Hamas and helicopter gunship attacks from Isreal, open the ports etc. so Palestinians have some hope of a livelihood and maybe get some f*cking PEACE!
I’d support that much more than some oil grabbing war in Iraq on the basis it might make the world safer.

Grrrr…. rant over.

Im sure the Palestinians would rescue Israel children struck down by rocket attacks wouldn’t they….??

They and Iran want to wipe Israel out – so imo there more than right to be defending themselves. I find it strange with the Palestinians – they fire rockets etc, if Israel wanted to and wasn’t stopped by the press going mental they could/would wipe the Gaza strip off the face of the planet.

It’s Palestine causing the problem – Israel built its boarder defence and left it be but still rockets come over the boarder – so when they retaliate there the bad ones ?

I would also agree with the Israel’s – the press is being one sided and sympathetic to the Palestinians so bloody right to keep them out. Remeber what they were like in the Falklands.

It’s Palestine causing the problem – Israel built its boarder defence and left it be but still rockets come over the boarder – so when they retaliate there the bad ones ?

Congratulations – you’ve avoided reading, or understanding, any of the huge volume of information that’s been written in recent days, and turned history on its head.

forums all over the world are going on like this , about how wronge , war crimes blah blah blah, of course its wronge, but its never gonna stop ,untill these idots stop and talk , with open doors for the world to see, it happend in N.I , it will also need to happen in afganistan, THE VIOLENCE WILL ONLY STOP WHEN THESE IDIOTS TALK, i doubt the Israelis are going to worry much on what the west thinks, im not a religeous in any way shape or form , but i pray that new U.S president can somehow usher in a new era of peace , i also agree on him not publicly saying anything on the matter , untill he comes to power, i hope he makes the right choices.

Offroading,

I agree the qassam and grad-type rockets aimed at civilians are also a disgusting act. However, whilst hamas are a terrorist militia, The Israeli Army and airforce are supposed to be bound to a higher standard – that of the Geneva Convention on the Conduct of War.

Its expressly against that convention to target civilian infrastructure of a people. Schools, Hospitals, Mosques and Police Stations are NOT legitimate targets in ANY war.

Hamas are also wrong to target civilians, however, when they target military personel this is (whilst not helpful to the “peace process”) acceptable as international law recognises the right of a people to physically oppose an occuping or invading force through combat, sabortage and disruption (providing that they don’t target civilians).

badger ive served in a few wars/conflicts and im afraid a lot happens on all sides thats not really in the Geneva Convention on the Conduct of War.

SR its quite hard for one side to talk to another, when one of the parties that need to sit around the table keep assassinating the other side.

or are you suggesting that the Israeli’s should start doing seance’s?

Hang on , hang on, I admit to not being particularly interested in the whole damned affair, after all, its been goin on for thousands of years hasnt it ?
But, in defence of the Israeli’s , –
Havent they dropped leaflets warning civilians out of a particular are before they drop bombs ?
Havent they warned Hamas that if they continue to lob rockets into Israel, the heavy retribution would be taken,…..
cue current action.
And, most importantly, isnt it Hamas that is launching these rockets from sites which they dont think the Israelis ‘Dare’ Bomb ? ie Hospitals/schools etc etc.

Cmon guys, at least the Israelis are an effective modern miltary operation, with spydrones in the air, and the capability to carry out what they have warned they would……they know what the hell is going on and why they are doing what they are.

Hamas is, and always will be as far as I can see, a Terrorist organization, and sometimes the only way to deal with such is exactly as is happening, and unfortunately, yes, lots of civilians get killed.

Stop lobbing rockets, and this maybe this wouldnt have happened ????

Just my opinion, simplistic as it may be.

5thElefant – Member

Yes, a minor skirmish with a few hundred deaths is exactly like gas chambers, ovens and industrialised murder.

The Germans were able to do what they did to Jews because there was a global war going on and essentially no one was watching.

Although the Nazis were extraordinarily secretive about what they were doing, they were also very much aware that, even if the horrible truth came out, no one could do anything about it. And of course they were fully convinced that they would win the war.

Even if the Israelis wanted to carry out the ‘industrialised murder’ of the Palestinians, they would be physically unable to do so.

The suggestion by many, of the similarities between what the Nazis did and what the Israelis are doing now, is not based by identical circumstances, it is based on a similar mindset.

That is, that the Palestinians are sub-human and there lives worthless. That the Palestinians have no rights and can be simply driven off their lands. That the Palestinians can be herded onto small areas of land and then those areas sealed off from the outside world etc. etc.

An example of this is, when challenged about the shelling of a UN school and the resulting death of young Palestinian children, the Israelis responded by claiming that Hamas was using the school to launch mortar attacks against their forces. Obviously they felt this completely justified their actions (quite apart from the fact that it was complete bollox)

The Israelis seemed genuinely confused when it was suggested that this was unacceptable. They didn’t appear to understand the concept that the lives of Palestinian children are in fact precious, not worthless and to be conveniently discarded if necessary. Of course there can be no doubt that the Israelis would not even consider such action, if Hamas fighters were launching an attack from a school crammed with Israeli children.

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Yes 5thElefant, the comparison is not with identical historical events, but with a similar attitude which suggest that one group of people are simply ‘sub-human’. I would have thought that was obvious, no ?

Spot on Macca – it’s a war. Bad things happen in wars, and there are casualties both innocent and guilty, and that extends to both sides.

Society, borders, economies both local and global are also based on people believing others are inferior to themselves.

You want a utopia ernie, you go and find one on another planet, as the one you’re on isn’t sociologically constructed to have one.

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Bad things happen in wars….blah…….blah….

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So why then, do we have an international war crime tribunal at The Hague ? ? ? ?

Surely the war crime investigators should realise that “bad things happen in wars” ?

Perhaps they should all come and live on my utopian planet ?

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BTW, did the Nazis at the Nuremberg Trails try this “sh1t happens in wars” defence ?

……..they should have tried it – I reckon that it might have worked.

It’s not a war crime, it’s a crime.

Israel is out of order. They are shelling civillians to try and get at Hamas. Bottom line – a lot of people in important places don’t give a sh*t about Palestinian lives. If you can’t flush out those who are firing rockets then you are morally bound to try and find another solution. You can’t shell innocents – end of.

The actions of the Israeli governments are simply racist.

Yes 5thElefant, the comparison is not with identical historical events, but with a similar attitude which suggest that one group of people are simply ‘sub-human’. I would have thought that was obvious, no ?

No. Not obvious or even vaguely accurate. Given the amazingly low number of casualties (given they’re fighting a war in a city) it’s blatantly obvious they’re not trying to exterminate civilians. There’s nothing to suggest they would if no-one was watching either. Israel does what Israel wants to do and doesn’t give a monkeys who objects.

The war crime thing is there to bring to justice those who commit war crimes. And that will happen if they are adjudged to have been committed.

However, the comment I was making is that any war will have collaterol damage. Some significantly more than most, and when you’re dealing with terrorist operations rather than military operations, the strength of intelligence is the key to limiting collaterol damage. It’s a well known and documented tactic of isolated terrorist cells to insinuate and exist within “safe” society and attack at opportune and unsuspecting moments. What should be the case is that those “safe” areas the terrorists insinuate to are adequately cleared prior to any military operation, or those harboring them should eject them on the basis of their own safety and innocence.

However, the latter generally doesn’t happen, and the former cannot be 100% accurate. So, civilians get hurt. That’s a standard on the rules of engagement of pretty much any military operation.

To my mind, the Israelis have not specifically targeted civilians, as they know better than to do that. Equally they have probably one of the best secret services around, with huge investment in it, purely as they are aware of their precarious position both politically and geographically, and seek to protect themselves, as any right thinking nation would. Equally, Hamas feel they are 100% right in what they’re doing, and potentially they are.

Also, how many of us have been involved in conflict? I know two on the forum that have, and chatting to them it’s abundantly clear that nothing is clear cut on the ground. It’s very easy to cry “war crime”, “oh my god Nazi-esque regime, bring them down” from our nice comfy offices, based on media reports. I’m not going to do that as there’s little point.

When you’re directly involved in the real time strategic operations and decisions of both perceived aggressor and oppressor, then fair enough, but until then, I cannot agree with statements such as “war criminals” and “israelis are nazis”, and I struggle to see how anyone else can.

Agree with the OP. Its a crime that the media wont leave him alone or the FA wont offer him a job.

everybody knows bad shit happens in wars, and civilians do get accidently killed. The problem is some of these events don’t appear to be accidents.

To most peoples minds, moving civilians into a building and then shelling it from a distance, bombing UN schools and leaving children/toddlers to starve to death whilst clinging to the bodies of their dead parents, whilst actively blocking the red cross from helping them is pretty indefensible.

If it was any other country than Israel this would be described for what it is, ethnic cleansing.

I read some interesting stuff at one point about “risk transfer warfare” which is in point here. Sadly the authors’ names have slipped out fo my head for the moment.

The general point was that Western armies and governments claim that it is right to target only combatants, but then go to enormous lengths to avoid their own combatants being placed at significant risk. The result is what we call “collateral damage”, which we claim is unavoidable, regrettable and morally different from targetting civilians.

This leads to a “war” in which the western army uses high-tech weaponry to attack “combatant” targets which cannot in any meaningful sense fight back, and in the process “collaterally” kills civilians who are not trying to fight at all. However, the moral difference between the deaths of an impoverished 17 year old boy with an AK47 and an impoverished 17 year old boy without an AK-47 when both are killed by rockets fired from warplanes operating thousands of yards above rifle range whose pilots are at no pracgtical risk of harm is not really terribly clear. Both are presumably pissed with the guy in the warplane, neither stands a chance of hurting him, he kills both of them.

The pilot cannot discriminate effectively between the two without exposing himself to a collossally higher level of risk, by flying much lower or slower, by getting out of the plane and going down into the streets with a rifle without heavy artillery cover etc etc. The risk that this would pose to the Western pilot is not acceptable, so the risk is instead borne by the impoverished 17 year old boy who does not have a rifle.

Given the dubious moral authority of the distinction between combatants and non-combatants, and the practical failure to separate them because risk to Western combatants is unacceptable it is therefore doubtful whether the claimed moral distinction between “proper” war and “terrorist outrages” is really tenable.

Western military attacks third world “army” and in the process kills civilians. Third world army cannot kill western military. It’s chances of hurting anyone are absurdlty low. So it attacks people it can hurt, who do (as is fairly pointed out) vote for the guys who sent the soldiers in the first place. If we assume that the third world guys have a point (and we have to concede that the palestinian factions have a point, even if they are not entirel in the right and do some very wrong things) then it is not clear that, morally speaking, they have to lose the argument simply because their military forces are incapable of hurting Israeli military forces most of the time. In other words, the use of overwhelming force in the certain knowledge that there will be collateral damage rather than using less force and exposing troops to risk goes some way to legitimising a response which actively seeks to target civilian populations.

NB: This is an argument about morality and legitimacy. Soldiers need not trouble themselves too much about such things while trying to stay alive, but their commanders and political masters probably should.