weird pension situation – how do i find details?

hi

ive just noticed that i seem to be missing a years pension contributions from an old works pension, and dont know how to check, so im hoping you may be able to advise me please?

i used to work for a local aerospace firm, left in dec 2009 to join fire service start of jan 2010.

ive only just twigged that my old annual statements from aero all say pension ended dec 2008.

ive considered the fact that i may be cracking up with a sh1t memory but checked my start date with fire which confirms jan 2010.  and ive found an old ‘leaving form’ from aero which has the leaving date as dec 2009.

i contacted the current aero pension bods who confirm their details say i left 2008.  ive also contacted current aero HR to see if they can shed light on this, confirm why i seem to have left the pension in 2008, and to ask them to look at my records.  theyve stated that their records dont go back that far (its only 2009!!) so i dont exist in their history any more.  they advised me to contact ‘pensionwise’ but that seems to be generic advice, or HMRC, but having logged onto my gateway, i cant see any way of seeing any historical pension info.

if id kept my old wage slips then that would have shown me, but i binned them ages ago thinking that id only need the P60s in future.

im pretty sure i wouldnt have pulled out of the scheme voluntarily to ‘save money’, why would i…..

any advice on where i can find out what happened in this missing year?

thanks

Did you transfer it into FS pension?

Is it a partial year because you officially finished the friday before xmas (for example) not a full year? I know there was some dicking around with my pension (Aero company as well, funnily enough) because i left 3 months into their financial year. So there was all sorts of hand wringing from HR and the pension people, i suspect because most people never left the company, unless they died or retired. Deeply weird organisation.

I ended up getting a partial refund of that year IIRC. Though that pension, plus the roll up into the next company pension is only worth about 30-35 quid a month by the time i retire. And due to EU/Non-EU taxation shenanigans, i’ll only see 25 quid of it…

no mate.  i did move some stuff about a few years later, keeping DB’s and moving DC’s into a SIPP, but this shows i left the works pension in 2008 which i just dont think i did.

EDIT:  that was to bruneep, typing at same time….

@mert, no idea mate, and i just dont know how to find out.  wish id kept my wage slips now 😀

Your tax account will show your payments each year. Combine with confirmation you were working until 2009, you could kind of ‘reverse calculate’ your salary and pension payments?

Surely if the company is still trading it must keep records to back them?

Hmm – just googled and it says 6 years. I’m afraid you might have to suck it up if you have no proof.

Your tax account will show your payments each year. Combine with confirmation you were working until 2009, you could kind of ‘reverse calculate’ your salary and pension payments?

do you mean via the gateway?  if so i cant see how to do this.

Surely if the company is still trading it must keep records to back them?

Hmm – just googled and it says 6 years. I’m afraid you might have to suck it up if you have no proof.

is where i think i am sadly.

cheers

tax returns, or bank account showing incoming salary ?

tax returns, or bank account showing incoming salary ?

P60?  been looking at them, they dont list pension contributions.  and ive no idea what bank acc i had in 2009 but itd only give a figure paid in anyway, no details on deductions.  ill ask a few old workmates, see if they have any oddities around 2009.

thanks

do you mean via the gateway? if so i cant see how to do this.

Yes.
It’s a pain to register / set up, but then it’s a login and check PAYE records.

It’s a pain to register / set up, but then it’s a login and check PAYE records.

just logged in again to check PAYE and it seems it only goes back 5 years?  am i missing something?

thanks

Something to do with being contracted out of SERPS/S2P and then contracting back in perhaps?

P60?  been looking at them, they dont list pension contributions.  and ive no idea what bank acc i had in 2009 but itd only give a figure paid in anyway, no details on deductions

I think that’s what Matt meant. If you know the tax rate, NI rates, student loans, whatever and your basic salary at the time you can work out how much is ‘missing’. If you weren’t doing any other salary sacrifice (or have records of the amounts of any) the ‘missing bit’ will be pension contributions.

Challenge the pension admin folk (nicely). Be clear about the evidence you have and ask them to confirm the instruction they had to remove you from the scheme, not just that they have you down as having left.

Your best bet is to check your payslips, if you still have them. See what NI rate you were paying – A is contracted in and D or F are contracted out. Most sizeable companies’ pension schemes will have been contracted out of S2P, meaning you (and the employer) paid a lower rate of NI, resulting in a reduction to your State Pension.

If you had some A rate NI in 2009/10 there was a period of employment which was not covered by a contracted out pension.  If none of the year was A rate you were definitely in a contracted out scheme for all pay periods that year and you should be able to get your former employer’s scheme to sort it.

Because the NI you paid affects your state pension, HMRC have fairly complete records. So, if you don’t have payslips, you could try checking your NI and State Pension records.I don’t think you can see your contracted out years on the HMRC website (I’ve just looked), but you should be able to get that info if you can speak to someone.

Of course, if the Aero co’s pension scheme wasn’t contracted out, none of this will help. Unfortunately the pension scheme administrator can only go on the information they hold, which originated with the employer. And as you have discovered they are not required to (doubtful they should) keep records back that far  I know it’s unhelpful, but you should have checked at the time!

well i think ive got to the bottom of THIS pension through chatting to old workmates.  seems like the policy was transferred to a different company back then, and everyones policy ended in dec 2008 and most took up a new inferior work pension (always inferior isnt it 😀 ).  they said some of us decided to leave it a while and have more take-home pay.  cant with any certainty say what i did so its possible i did that, or, i started a new DC pension and 1 year later i left aero anyway and later transferred it into a SIPP along with other DC pensions.

what theyre saying is that some of the more savvy financial gurus there worked it all out and many took that pension at 55 as according to them it had a maximum growth of 2 and half %, but if you took it at 55 then there was no maximum yearly growth to it.  so they say theyre laughing now as the money theyve been been paid since (as interest rates have grown) will be more than if theyd waited til 65 and taken just sliiiightly more per year.  apparently theyd need to be about 90 years old before it would have paid to take it at 65.

yes i know the right answer is get a financial advisor, but does that sound feasible for a DB pension?  i was always advised if its DB then hold onto it for as long as possible.  looking on the administrators site the transfer value is £15,000 less than what it was in 2019.  i assume thats also an indication its crap growth.

thanks for all of the advice so far, i suspect its different advice i need now tho as im going through my old statements and it does appear that the yearly growth is pretty sh1te, so considering taking it and doing something with that money instead.  i understand tho that until i retire officially id still have to pay 25% tax on anything i take, so theres that consideration too.

bluddy minefield isnt it 😀

thanks all

DB pension? Did it have a trustee board of directors? (I’m assuming it would, but it’s probably not guaranteed)

that’s where I’d start.

Are you still “in” the scheme? (as a deferred member) you should still be getting annual communications from the trustee’s

DB pension? Did it have a trustee board of directors? (I’m assuming it would, but it’s probably not guaranteed)

that’s where I’d start.

Are you still “in” the scheme? (as a deferred member) you should still be getting annual communications from the trustee’s

dont think i need to contact them now mate as everyone finished that pension the same time, even those that still work there, theyre just on a different scheme now.  as i said, some decided to take that one at 55 as it worked out better financially unless they reach 90 (when theyd probably not care too much)

and yes i spose im still ‘in’ the scheme, i get yearly statements showing what id get at 65 (im 60 now).  and looking back from previous years it does indeed look like poor growth, so those that took it at 55 and are getting regular payments now say that those payments will be work out better for them long term than waiting til 65 and taking just slightly more.

ive played around with the sliders as though im retiring tomorrow, and then each year til im 65 in 2029 to see if i can work out whether its worth taking it now.  i dont think itd be worth transferring it elsewhere as the transfer value is sh1te to what it was a few years ago so its just a matter of working out whether i should start taking it now and investing that money elsewhere, where im sure itd get better growth than leaving it in another 5 years.

cheers

The company I was working for went into admin in 2017, taking the pension scheme with it.

The pension went into the PPF and everyone who had an interest in it have all said the same thing. As soon as you get to 55 take the pension as waiting another 12 years til 67 gives piddly increases.

One pension advisor I spoke to said I’d have to claim 22 years (until 89!) to just break even.

I’ll be taking it when I’m 55 – not long now.

yep i should have maybe looked into that particular DB pension a little closer really at 55.  at 60, its had 5 more years of low growth now, not sure if it makes sense to take it now or leave it another 5 years and let it be what it is.  hmmm……

I’d take it now; there’s a lot of speculation that Rachel Reeves will make a “Tax Grab” on pensions. I say a lot but from what I can see, the only indication of this is the odd Telegraph article & a few online spin off  articles that seem to misrepresent the opinion piece written by the outgoing Fabian Society Chair…

Anyway, I think if you’re no longer paying into this pension, and it has some kind of annual increase built into it (e.g. annual increase in line with RPI or CPI etc.), you may well see a better increase than the 2.4% I think you said it increased by.

Certainly, you could take 25% tax free lump sum & stick it in a tax efficient account, many of which are advertising 4.5% interest annually.

I’d take it now;

thats what im thinking now after some fag packet calculations.  i know the advice is never to chop in a DB pension but i wouldnt be chopping it in, id be taking it early.

ive looked at my previous statements and the figures dont seem to show anything to get excited about.

2019 it would have paid £5950 at 65 (2029)

2020 – £6101

2021 – £6186

2022 – £6496

2023 – £6843

2024 (now) – £7200

so in 5 years its grown about £1000 which doesnt seem great.

if i take it now i either get £5788pa or £28,000 lump sum and £4211pa

leave it 5 years til 2029 when im 65 its £7200pa or £33,500 lump and £5000.

im not clever enough to work it out to nth degree but ive worked out figures for getting to 80 years old.  any lump sum id stick in a SIPP as i dont need it now, and id be confident that the cash would grow more in a SIPP than leaving it in for 5 years.

accounting for 25% tax loss on any payments until 65 i think ive worked out that id have had £75,000 in my hand either way at 80 years old, but im told the payments grow more once i take it than by leaving it in at a poor % rate.

you reckon those figures vaguely rack up?  bound to be out by a bit but i just reckon that by taking the pension now and sticking it in a SIPP say until i do actually retire would gain me more money than leaving it in.

to be clear, i dont want the money to spend now, id invest it.

thanks

I’d take it now; there’s a lot of speculation

IMHO that’s bad advice.  If the pension taxation rules change radically they’ll be a timescale to allow for adjustment in people’s lifestyles and direction, at least until April 2025 more likely longer.  I’d wait until October 30th then reevaluate in November.

it’s just that, speculation.  You never know you maybe better off with the new incoming rules, it’d be foolish to make an uneducated move right now.

what theyre saying is that some of the more savvy financial gurus there worked it all out and many took that pension at 55 as according to them it had a maximum growth of 2 and half %, but if you took it at 55 then there was no maximum yearly growth to it.  so they say theyre laughing now as the money theyve been been paid since (as interest rates have grown) will be more than if theyd waited til 65 and taken just sliiiightly more per year.  apparently theyd need to be about 90 years old before it would have paid to take it at 65

That’s where I got to with mine, except I took it at 53 (I had a protected min age of 50 to take it) – the turning point where I’d be better off is after 78 in my case.  How many new Santa Cruzes am I buying when 79 ? It’s about which tartan slippers or whether to have chicken broth or beef + vegetable soup (puree’d)  by then.

IAIFA but your benefits look guaranteed to grow at c4.5% pa until 65.  You want to compare that to what the scheme rules say about what your pension can grow at if you take it now – it may be at CPI or CPI + a %  and probably capped at a maximum, or at a fixed rate per year.  Obviously if you think the likely growth rate of a pension in payment is less than 4.5% it pays to wait until 65 if you can afford it.  If you are worried about the finances of the sponsoring employer it would also be worth getting the pension payment underway.  I suppose you could take the pension with the lump sum, get the tax benefit from making it a SIPP contribution, but you are giving up certain growth in benefits in the DB pension for uncertainty inherent in investing in the SIPP.

IMHO that’s bad advice.  If the pension taxation rules change radically they’ll be a timescale to allow for adjustment in people’s lifestyles and direction, at least until April 2025 more likely longer.  I’d wait until October 30th then reevaluate in November.

yep i wasnt going to make any rushed decision because of that, i was just trying to work out if i could make more by taking it now and investing it myself in a SIPP or ISA using one of those LifeStrategy jobbies maybe.

your benefits look guaranteed to grow at c4.5% pa until 65.

thank you.  im not clever enough to have worked that growth % out myself.  i suppose 4.5% doesnt sound toooo bad, i just think that the lump sum would make more than £5000 over 5 years in a SIPP/ISA and by keep ploughing in each monthly payment, itd accunulate better than the ;leave it be’ projection.  but i suppose for every £4000 id get per year, id only see £3000 of that to invest due to 25% tax.

i assume i AM correct that i can just take it and pump it into a SIPP or ISA yes?  and that theyre much of a muchness?  put £28,000 lump sum into a SIPP and government would add 25% but id then have to pay 25% on any withdrawals?  whereas with the ISA id just put it in as is, and not pay tax when taking it?  so much of a muchness which i choose?

thanks

5 year fixed rate deposit is about 4.5% at the moment – i think, and could change – so your guaranteed lump sum would grow about the same rate as a cash deposit in SIPP/ISA.  To exceed that you will have to take some form of investment risk – five years might be long enough to hope you can do better but it isn’t guaranteed.  If you put the lump sum in a SIPP, under the current rules the government would add 20%,  NB this area is thought to be in the sights of Rachel Reeves.  You get 25% of withdrawals tax free (again, under the current rules) and pay income tax on anything above that.  The lump sum/annual payment trade off is pretty fixed (and for many schemes it isn’t all or nothing on the lump sum, you can take anything between zero and the maximum), and personally if i was looking at the take it at 60 or 65 question I would be more interested in the question of “how does that guaranteed annual income growth stack up against what the terms of how my pension payment could grow if i took it now”

and personally if i was looking at the take it at 60 or 65 question I would be more interested in the question of “how does that guaranteed annual income growth stack up against what the terms of how my pension payment could grow if i took it now”

@blackhat hmmm….. yep thats it in a nutshell i suppose.  and if as you say my figures at present have worked out at 4.5% over the last 5 years, and taking it now would roughly grow about the same over the next 5 (iyes i know no crystal ball), maybe i should just leave it rather than take a 25% hit on any incoming payments and just hoping that a S&S SIPP/ISA would grow more to counteract that.  probably too close to call.

thanks