Webber on Armstrong.

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  • Webber on Armstrong.
  • warton
    Member

    I think it’s pretty obvious there’s a problem in Tennis. 5 Hour games with virtually no drop in performance levels? Then get up and do it again 36 hours later. No, sorry I don’t buy it.

    As Mike said, SIX out of competition tests last year. That’s a shambles.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    Rugby has changed as a sport / sporting culture though, hasn’t it, massively increased professionalism and completely different attitude towards training, diet etc. compared to 20 years ago when it was still quite jolly gentlemen amateur(ish) (thinking about union, obviously).

    In cycling, wasn’t “being professional” used as a euphemism for doping?

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    5 Hour games with virtually no drop in performance levels? Then get up and do it again 36 hours later.

    count up the time actually playing, it is not 5 hours…

    Premier Icon bratty
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    I think the big pointer is that a Spanish Dr has stood up and said that he has worked with athletes, tennis players, footballers and cyclists. Now about 70 of the 200 blood bags found were linked to cyclists, that means about 140 other sports stars used his services. Thats easily 7 big football teams and 10 tennis players and 30 odd athletes. (They would not all be Spanish of course – many of the cyclists caught were not, but most Spanish pros seem to be implicated one way or the other in drugs during this time).

    This was in 2006, when Spanish sports stars (inc a certain tennis player renown for his exceptional physical endurance) were doing very well in general. The Spanish Government have been happy to sit on the evidence and protect their sporting heros. The only Spanish to have been caught for this were caught by other cycling bodies such as the Italian one).

    As regards tennis and football, both require skill, but the extra 10% or whatever in the last quarter of a match when the opponents are flagging often will win the match.

    atlaz
    Member

    You rock the boat when you’re washed up retired and need the cash… Millar

    I don’t think you could argue David Millar is washed up. We’ve yet to see the 2013 version but he won a TdF stage that wasn’t a TT so I don’t think he’s classed as a scrub just yet.

    bigdawg
    Member

    I think the big pointer is that a Spanish Dr has stood up and said that he has worked with athletes, tennis players, footballers and cyclists. Now about 70 of the 200 blood bags found were linked to cyclists, that means about 140 other sports stars used his services. Thats easily 7 big football teams and 10 tennis players and 30 odd athletes. (They would not all be Spanish of course – many of the cyclists caught were not, but most Spanish pros seem to be implicated one way or the other in drugs during this time).

    This was in 2006, when Spanish sports stars (inc a certain tennis player renown for his exceptional physical endurance) were doing very well in general. The Spanish Government have been happy to sit on the evidence and protect their sporting heros. The only Spanish to have been caught for this were caught by other cycling bodies such as the Italian one).

    As regards tennis and football, both require skill, but the extra 10% or whatever in the last quarter of a match when the opponents are flagging often will win the match

    thats Dr Fuentes who’s trial has just started, and already its turning into a farce.

    He’s offered to name all the people he worked with, he was told he didn’t need to, they’ve uncovered a letter from the Spanish Roayal Family asking Contador not to be pursued or investigated for doping and the Dr has stated under oath he received death threats from 4 major football clubs in Spain.

    there were an awful lot of footballers and tennis players on teh list and there are some people who will go to some pretty extreme lengths it would seem to stop the list becoming public…

    atlaz
    Member

    Well as doping wasn’t an offense in Spain then, the trial is about dangerous treatments and they’re just treating the dopers as “victims” of an unethical doctor rather than co-conspirators. That said, they should publish the whole list and leave those athletes to explain why they’re not dopers.

    mrmoofo
    Member

    Not wanting to piss on anyone chips but I knew quite alot of techies in FI – I also knew well someone high up in PR at one of the teams.
    In around 2004 we were taliking about steriod abuse – and he raised the staggering point thta then there was no drug testing in F1.
    He then went on to state that steriod abuse is quite rife -he sighted “why do you see so many strong jawed F1 drivers”

    The G forces in corners were immense and neck strength had to be at asuper human level …

    Other F1 employees would never confirm or deny …

    Today, of course, it might be different

    Premier Icon phil56
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    warton – Member

    As Mike said, SIX out of competition tests last year. That’s a shambles.
    Really? The concept of out of competition testing is to enable testing athletes in the off season – for track athletes and cylists this could be several winter months.
    The tennis season starts in early January and runs through till mid November – a player like Murray would be ‘in competeition’ and availble for tesing every month and twice most months apart from December.
    I’ve no idea if PEDs are a problem in tennis, but out of competition testing has no relenence here, ample opportunity to test tennis players all year round.

    Premier Icon miketually
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    The tennis season starts in early January and runs through till mid November

    Good point

    atlaz
    Member

    Mike McTimoney wrote:

    Good point

    Not really

    Phil Alcock wrote:

    warton – Member
    The tennis season starts in early January and runs through till mid November – a player like Murray would be ‘in competeition’ and availble for tesing every month and twice most months apart from December.
    I’ve no idea if PEDs are a problem in tennis, but out of competition testing has no relenence here, ample opportunity to test tennis players all year round.

    Pro cycling starts early Jan, finishes late October. Lets be generous and say that’s a month of difference in total. So for 1 month more rest, there are 1994 more tests done on cyclists than on tennis players. I’m going to have to suggest that either cycling is MASSIVELY over tested or tennis is massively under tested. Going out on a limb, I’ll say it’s the latter.

    Maybe it’s a stats thing but unless there are 200 times more cyclists than tennis players eligible for testing I doubt it.

    Out of competition means just that, any time you’re not competing. Willing to bet tennis players and cyclists probably have a similar amount of time not playing each year; cyclists probably a little more but not that much.

    warton
    Member

    Out of competition, not out of season. Cyclists get tested within the cycling season when they are not at races, hence out of competition. For example top GC riders target one race, and may only race 60 days a year, at all other times they are subject to random out of competition testing.

    tell me, do tennis players play every week of that season? No, they don’t. So there is scope for a lot more out of competition testing in Tennis.

    Burchy1
    Member

    He then went on to state that steriod abuse is quite rife -he sighted “why do you see so many strong jawed F1 drivers”


    😀

    FuzzyWuzzy
    Member

    Lol yeah where does the season come into it? Out of competition is testing away from races not out of season. 6 in a year is a joke.

    alex222
    Member

    tell me, do tennis players play every week of that season? No, they don’t. So there is scope for a lot more out of competition testing in Tennis.

    Also cyclists still have to finish a race to come last* where as tennis players only have to play one round to finish last. Cycling is much tougher; plus the off season is 2 or three months of racing cyclocross for a large number of European pros.

    *I know this isn’t strictly true as they can DNF etc.

    Premier Icon boriselbrus
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    Not wanting to piss on anyone chips but I knew quite alot of techies in FI – I also knew well someone high up in PR at one of the teams.
    In around 2004 we were taliking about steriod abuse – and he raised the staggering point thta then there was no drug testing in F1.
    He then went on to state that steriod abuse is quite rife -he sighted “why do you see so many strong jawed F1 drivers”

    The G forces in corners were immense and neck strength had to be at asuper human level …

    Other F1 employees would never confirm or deny …

    Today, of course, it might be different

    Not sure if it’s still the case, but drug testing was introduced for F1 in the early 1990’s. There was an Italian driver (I think Naninni, but may be wrong) who was concerned about his espresso habit causing him to fail the caffeine test before being told he would need around 50 cups a day to put him over the limit. I also remember Mansell complaining that he had been picked for the random test for 3 grand prix in a row. There was some comment about him being used to giving urine samples as the FIA were always taking the piss out of him!

    mrmoofo
    Member

    The Big Jawed Scotsman

    He may have been mentioned – and how his jaw developed over time. And a certain set of German brothers. Testing, I believe was random … and everyone knew when it was going to happen. Apptly growth hormone rather than testosterone

    PS there seems to be a lot of “cycling has it harder ” comments. Well, that didn’t stop Armstrong – or most of the TdF pelaton in the nineties and noughties ….

    Of course other sports have dopers – endurance needs EPO, tennis needs resiliance, strength and stamina. For those who say why would tennis players need to dope – go figure.
    Or go outside when it 37 degrees and wave a tennis racket around for four hours whilst running back and forth.
    I would be pretty sure that the current batch of sprinters might be smoking more that just the herb …

    I thought the jaw thing was down to G-Forces…how naive

    ScottChegg
    Member

    And a certain set of German brothers

    Rubbish. Ralf would only test positive for pies and cake.

    atlaz
    Member

    In around 2004 we were taliking about steriod abuse – and he raised the staggering point thta then there was no drug testing in F1.

    That would surprise me. Given in 2002 Tomas Enge was stripped of the 2002 F3000 title (at the time one step below F1) for failing a marajuana test and he was again recently for some other drug.

    Edukator
    Member

    Remeber who used to beat all the doped up track and fileld athletes (and cyclists) in the 70s Superstars on TV. That’s right, the F1 drivers.

    glenp
    Member

    Testing is obviously inadequate in other sports, including F1. But this is quite childish shooting of the messenger in the case of Mark Webber. F1 drivers are surprisingly fit because they need to be.

    Edukator
    Member

    Shooting a mesenger that conveniently forgets James Hunt raced on cocaine. Maybe Ronnie Peterson would still be alive if he hadn’t.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    James Hunt raced on cocaine

    is that a PED?

    Premier Icon phil56
    Subscriber

    warton – Member
    Out of competition, not out of season. Cyclists get tested within the cycling season when they are not at races, hence out of competition. For example top GC riders target one race, and may only race 60 days a year, at all other times they are subject to random out of competition testing.

    I think that’s my point. The relatively short ‘off season’ in tennis, means that the majority of testing is classified as ‘in competition’ – in 2011 the ITF conducted 2,150 tests of which 216 were classified as ‘out of competition’

    FuzzyWuzzy – Member
    6 in a year is a joke.

    It would be if it was true – but is it? Is this a ‘STW FACT’?
    The 216 out of competition tests in 2011 doesn’t include those conducted by National Anti Doping Agencies such as USADA, so for this to have dropped to 6 in total seems very odd.

    I’m no fan of tennis and I’ve no doubt it could do much more in the testing sphere, but the stats and logic being used here don’t stack up – cycling fanboys trying to sling mud to cover the stink from their own sport?

    warton
    Member

    The ITF and the World Anti-Doping Agency conducted just 21 out-of-competition blood tests – used to detect the abuse of growth hormone, transfusions using blood from donors, and blood-doping substances CERA and HBOCs – in tennis in 2011.
    The vast majority of tests in tennis in 2011 – 2,019 of a total of 2,150 – were urine.

    Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/tennis/news/20121113/tennis-anti-doping/#ixzz2JU7Oa32x

    and to answer the ‘Out Of Competition’ question

    Of the 642 tested tennis players, 510 were not tested out of competition at all in 2011 – when athletes aren’t playing between events or in the offseason

    Premier Icon phil56
    Subscriber

    I agree with the point about blood v urine, and no doubt this is an area where cycling is leading all sports (although you could argue it had to!)

    However, I still think this out of competition point is a red herring. If you tested Andy Murray and Bradley Wiggins every Saturday throughout 2013 (52 test each) the the majority of Wiggins’s tests would be out of competition while a far greater proportion of Murrays would in in competition. The very different schedules and seasons of different sports makes this comparison meaningless.

    So, where did the ‘6’ come from?
    And those numbers are the ITF numbers only, they don’t include the national testing agencies.

    uselesshippy
    Member

    turnerguy,
    yep, banned by uci etc, and it’s got too do wonders for the mental game. 😀

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Subscriber

    However, I still think this out of competition point is a red herring. If you tested Andy Murray and Bradley Wiggins every Saturday throughout 2013 (52 test each) the the majority of Wiggins’s tests would be out of competition while a far greater proportion of Murrays would in in competition. The very different schedules and seasons of different sports makes this comparison meaningless.

    No.
    In competition means at the end of a race (or tennis match). In cycling, there’s a dope testing room and a load of race numbers pinned to the wall where riders hand their numbers back. Usual is that the three podium places plus another two or three randoms from inside the top 10 or 15 get tested. Not sure of the procedure in tennis.

    Out of competiton doesn’t mean “out of season”. It simply means “any time other than when you’re actually racing”. So if a cyclist does a one-day race, goes home and at 7am the next morning there a knock at the door and it’s the anti-doping team, that’s an out of competition test. Same in tennis.

    It’s not splitting hairs, it’s a very important distinction.
    Obviously if the test occurs in the middle of a tournament (or a stage race) then it’s defined as In Competition even if it’s officially a rest day.

    lasty
    Member

    Beta blockas were/are used on a regular basis in top class motorcycle racing. I spent time as a mechanic for various teams over the last 15 years or so, mostly in europe and it was par for the course with most of the lads i worked with. Cant see it being very much different on four wheels – everyone trying to get an edge whichever way they see fit.
    Dunno if it actually did any good at the time but to be honest seemed to chill-out the more stressed riders, most reckoned it was like having a beer before they went out … 😯
    Several got tested and passed by the way, maybe at that time the authorities were looking for somthing a bit harder..

    Had to laugh when the english football team were up in arms recently when a match was cancelled at the last minute (Poland ??). They complained because theyd taken their caffine pills and couldnt sleep…

    Poor lambs …. 😕

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