Waaay ot – expansion gap around hearth (new stove content)

We’ve just had a stove fitted (lovenholm cleanburn) with granite hearth and now it’s my turn to fit a solid oak floor.

Skirting has already been removed, there’s a membrane down over concrete floor and I’ll be using 6mm solid insulation and floating floor. We were wanting to fit the floor without any beading, and I kind of assumed I’d be able to lay the floor right up to the hearth, with the expansion gap on the opposite wall dealing with any movement.

I’ve not fitted solid floor before, and the pack instructions say 12mm all round which seems a lot.

So, can I lay right up to the hearth or do I need to get some Edge Trim? The room is 3.5m x 4.8m, stove is halfway down the longer wall. I was going to lay the floor lengthways so it would be sideways expansion concerning me. Do these floors expand lengthways as well/as much?

Any bright ideas or answers would be greatly appreciated!

i would stick with the instructions, yes, floors move, oak is more stable than others tho it could be an expensive mistake. i have seen flooring which expanded with not enough gap, it was like a sprung floor in a gymnasium, raised about 2 inch in the middle, gently domed.

I hear what you’re saying. Thing is that the only ‘fixed’ bit is the hearth – more than happy to have 15mm gaps everywhere else including the walls next to the stove. With a floating floor, won’t it push away from the hearth into the ‘free’ space? Or am I being very naive?

problem is you will have heavy objects on it in the room and the floor will want to expand in every direction away from where there is the most friction to the floor below.

Ok trim it is! Just for my sanity, how do these work when the floor is glued down or secret nailed then? Surely the floor will buckle with expansion because the whole thing is fixed?

Done this our floor does push away from the hearth but ended up putting trim round the hearth anyway as it was very hard to get a clean line I was happy with due to having to trim two boards width ..

Can’t think where I read it (we’re debating some reclaimed parquet we’ve been offered), but one site recommended filling in the gap around the hearth with cork expansion strips which you can then sand and varnish the same as your floor.

Edit: google seems to say cork strips are a no for solid floors. So you can safely ignore me.

Well, the instructions with the floor say cork strips SHOULD be used in the gap, then covered with skirting or beading.

Just worked out that maximum expansion is something like 4mm per metre, and this is mainly cross ways. So 14 mm across my room – so a 7mm gap around the hearth. I’m not even sure I could get a decent end cover in that space!

Crankboy – would it work if the floor got laid with finished planks against the hearth? I know it’s an odd place to start but by starting there I can leave a couple of mm spare just in case, and then lay cut pieces under the skirting?

Really appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this! Thanks.

Firstly, you really shouldn’t be floating a solid floor. But you are now anyway.

Are you running the floor perpendicular to or parallel with the width of the hearth?

” would it work with finished planks against the hearth” probably would . We have a through lounge dinning area with an odd layout I started in the dinning area so the lay of the planks was set when I got to the hearth had I stated at the hearth front then worked back to the wall then out again it would have been possible to fit flush to the hearth. But I was using a self adehesive foam underlay that you peel the cover off as you lay the boards so I could only work in one direction . Basically my wooden floor floats on a huge sheet of sticky backed plastic.

Oak is strong but not particularly stable so will move. Too tight and it’ll creak annoyingly. I’m guessing you don’t want a trim around the hearth for aesthetical reasons? In which case fill the gap between hearth and floor with a pva/cement pointing or similar and not bother with a trim. It’ll probably get some small cracks in it but so may the pointing in your hearth.

dd – parallel

Yes, parallel. It’s a wickes floor – floats using their clip system (that’s their recommended method too). I’d considered laying perpendicular to the hearth but hadn’t thought about the finishing problem Crankboy mentioned. I’ve seen that sticky backed plastic used before but it seemed a faff and that floor does creak.

Psling – just lay it quite close, let it “rest” for a few months and then fill in the gaps? Assuming the whole centre of the floor isn’t approaching the ceiling 😉

If you’re floating it, I’m afraid you’re going to need an expansion gap. If you have your full 12mm at the opposite wall, then you might get away with a 6-7mm gap across the hearth. If you fill the gap neatly with clear silicone it won’t look so bad.

Ok, thanks. Out of interest, why should a solid wood floor not be floating given the relatively high expansion potential?

I don’t know the answer for this but could it be because a solid floor will just expand in thickness if constrained in the other directions?

I don’t know the answer for this but could it be because a solid floor will just expand in thickness if constrained in the other directions?

I don’t know the answer either. But I’m pretty sure it’s not that…

Ok, thanks. Out of interest, why should a solid wood floor not be floating given the relatively high expansion potential?

IME, solid works better by being adhered to the sub-floor (glued or nailed), rather than floated. That’s not to say you can’t do it. Only, that, I wouldn’t do it for a paying customer unless they signed off any risks with expansion, creaking, ballooning, etc.

…so how does it expand if it’s nailed or glued down?

the glues used are flexible and I guess so are the nails or screws.

Given I have a solid oak floating floor laid on sticky backed plastic I am eminently qualified to comment on deadlydarcy’s view … I love my floor and found it easy to lay but he is right . It expanded moving a skirting board and does creak occasionally it also can bow when the seasons change but settles down . The creaking does not worry or annoy me . If I did another one i’d take the skirting boards off lay to the wall with expansion gaps then refit skirting boards

the glues used are flexible and I guess so are the nails or screws.

Yep, correct, but I’d expect trout to know, as he’s laid lots too. The glues remain elastic when cured and so allow a little bit of movement laterally and also help with the feel of the floor to walk on. When nailed, the nails are barbed and have a certain amount of flexibility to allow the floor to shift about. Floors do not expand and contract as much as the instructions would scare you into believing. If you want to ensure your floor doesn’t shift about too much, you could do much worse than checking the relative humidity of the room and ensuring it doesn’t vary wildly from one season to the next…plenty of ventilation etc. Oh and btw, you may see a bit of shrinkage if anything in front of your stove. 🙂 So, as I said earlier, don’t leave a 12mm gap, just go quarter inch and fill with a bead of clear silcone.

Can you put a picture up of the room? I can give you an idea of where and how to start if you want. Also, a close up of the hearth might be handy too (not too close, just showing the hearth and the area around it).

That’d be ace. Sorry for quality – bright sunlight and PlayBook camera are not friends!

Stove

From inside looking down lengthways (I would have expected to start in the far right hand corner)

From outside looking in (behind the chairs is a 15cm step in the wall)

Existing laminate will be coming up shortly!

you should be able to get a profile like this

looks nice and tidy around the hearth

Is that a shoulder I can see in the hearth? If so, once the laminate comes up, will the new floor not sit just underneath?

So, if it were me, I would start by dry (or in your case without clips) laying a row of flooring underneath where the top of the hearth comes. Then, again, without clips, back fill the area either side of the hearth. When it comes to the rips at the walls, you don’t really want anything too narrow. So, at this point, you’ll have to make a decision as to what you do…if the piece to go in at the wall is at least a third of a board wide, then fire away, if the piece by the wall is too narrow, then work out how much you have to move the floor back (remembering your 10mm expansion gap), and take the equivalent off the boards against the hearth. I hope I’m explaining this clearly enough.

Before you cut anything, have a quick check for parallel off the opposite wall (and again, work out what your last rip will be) – if it ends up being 10-20mm or thereabouts, then re-adjust everything. Sorry, you’ll thank me for it in the end 🙂

Once you’re happy, starting with the row against the hearth (and maybe another row added towards the door, to keep your joints square), place the outside row a foot towards the door on the floor, then take each row as it comes and stack them on top of one another. You will then have a pile of flooring stacked in the order in which it has to be laid. Start laying using your clips as per instructions. Don’t sweat it too much about everything being cock-on, just make sure your floor is all together nice and tightly and square. When you have laid your last row (say, hearth plus another one or two rows), then check for parallel to your hearth and opposite walls. You should be able to tap the floor this way or that to adjust (as the whole thing is now one floating structure). Pop some wedges in at the walls and off you go.

As a rule of thumb, your end-joins should always be further apart than the width of the floor. 🙂

Hope this helps. Any more questions, just ask.

Groovy. Just thought I’d see what it was gonna be like before the laminate comes up. 7mm gap round the hearth gives 10mm at the wall with the 1stvpack of planks, uncut! Gap to the wall is 1/2 plank so I’ll go for it.

I’ve got some 7.5mm cork pieces to fill the expansion gap under the skirting – is it worth using, and should I use it to space the floor from the hearth and leave it in situ when done?

Many thanks for your help!

Nice one! Looking good.

No, don’t leave any cork under the skirting. Cork will compress but only by a few mm. No point leaving it there. Is the new floor sat underneath the lip of the hearth? If so, I’d just leave the small gap. You’ll hardly notice it.

Post again when you’re getting near the door. 😀

Oh and one small thing (if we want to be really fussy), that stepped stagger on those rows…you want to avoid a pattern like that. Keep the staggers random if you can. Is it different length planks or are they all the same?

To be fair, I think it’ll go just fine.

They’re random lengths – I was trying to maintain a decent overlap while I get going! Sure I’ll get bored of that soon enough 😉

I don’t know the answer either. But I’m pretty sure it’s not that…

that is what can happen with other materials when constrained but I guess they are still free to bow upwards which leads to…..

in laminate expansion can be quite controlled and it stay flat. Real wood can curve as it expands – the nails stop it doing this.

Well, one week on and we’re near the door. Main casualty so far has been my middle fingernail – hammer related interface 😕

I must say I’ve not found this easy. Laminate is a piece of proverbial compared to real floor. The clips holding the planks together are a pain – they stop the planks from being tapped in sometimes so I’ve reduced the numbers used as I’ve gone along.

Managed to get into a bit of a tankslapper with one plank which has gone a bit crooked, and no matter how much I sanded edges down I just couldn’t seem to stop it affecting future rows. I guess I’ll be buying some filler in due course! Only talking about 0.5mm gaps really, but it’s annoying as it ‘runs’ for 3 or 4 rows.

Going to have a go at cutting the architrave tonight I think, then the fiddly bit of laying around the doorway. Any top tips?
8)

shaping/profile gauge

So got any pics of your floor then?

Do you have any pre-made thresholds for the doorway or are you going to make one yourself?

I assume you don’t have a specialist undercut saw of access to one?

I was just going to cut the doorway using a bit of offcut floor to support a decent saw. The threshold I was going to buy a pre-made one, we’ve got a bit of height difference (probably 8-10mm between the laminate in the hallway and the new floor) so I’ll need to get something decent.

How would I make a threshold if I wasn’t to buy one?

I’ll post up pics of progress to date later on… Can also post up a picture of my middle finger if you like 😛

How would I make a threshold if I wasn’t to buy one?

Erm, might be best to stick to buying one. 🙂

Use an offcut of floor to support a saw. Chop away the architraves and as much as the door frame behind as you can.

Our floor is solid ok, screwed (hidden – screwed into the groove) to a 3/4″ plywood base on standard wooden joists.
Floorboards lived in the house for 2-3 weeks before fitting to ‘acclimatise’
Like you the skirting was not fitted.
I’m told (by dad, time served joiner, he did the job) that there is circa 10mm gap all round, hidden by the skirting. Around the hearth the oak butts right up fits where it touches and we’ve never had a problem…

Here’s the bit round the door. Just a few final cuts (silent n) and then a long final set of cuts for the final 1/3rd of a row. The last complete row butts up against the architrave by 6mm or so but then I’m left with a gap to the laminate of 30mm ish.

Should I trim the laminate back to fit in a 50mm strip of wood? Threshold won’t quite be in the right place if I do, but I think it’ll look better. It’ll mean I can finally finish the flamin laminate off properly too!

Just need to find a threshold trim and some filler then…