USADA releasing Armstrong evidence today.

I think he’s as guilty as sin, but the USADA reports really needed a proper smoking gun (it might have, but I’ve not seen it spouted out on the various forums so I’m assuming not).

Whilst all the circumstantial evidence is pretty much damming it really could have been game set and match with a killer blow of a dodgy blood sample or something in their possession.

I’m not 100% up to speed – are we still expecting jail terms etc. for this or is it just the ban, stripped of titles and go away to live on his $80m fortune in peace/shame?

They have effectively stolen our sport and potential heros from us

Well, no because surely if everyone was doing it then it just made it a level playing field, so its still fair competition, they just got to the finish line a bit quicker

yes and no, but they still lied to us. My kids were brought up watching the Tour and these guys became their heros – what do we say to them now. Its not a good example is it

stolen our hero’s.

stolen FROM our heroes.

There are plenty of riders, like Moncoutie, Evans, Menchov who have had victories and a better place in the world of cycling kept from them because of cheats. And, Bassons a rider who dare speak out. Hounded out of the sport.

It’s fine for people like George to say he’s sorry (now he’s retired). Give your money you cheatingly earned to anti doping if you’re that sorry you cheating ****. And for the “i didnt dope since 96” bullshit, your salary was based on your cheats performances. Sorry to pick on george, there’s hundreds of them. who cheated.

I love cycling, I mean love it. But this stinks, if the UCI doesn’t see this as an opportunity to clean itself up, cycling mights as well go **** itself.

It’s fine for people like George to say he’s sorry (now he’s retired). Give your money you cheatingly earned to anti doping if you’re that sorry you cheating ****. And for the “i didnt dope since 96” bullshit, your salary was based on your cheats performances. Sorry to pick on george, there’s hundreds of them. who cheated.

+1

The problem with the UCI is that you’ve gotta feel they were implicit in this somewhere down the line so any admission that this report is accurate is fairly damaging to them.

We should also remember all the good he has achieved with LiveStrong as well

And I guess we should remember that Jimmy Saville did a lot for charity when we consider his alleged crimes…?

This case is about whether Armstrong broke the rules of the sport by using prohibited performance enhancing substances and techniques, and the Livestrong fund is irrelevant.
If it turned out, for example, that Livestrong funds were misused in support of the doping conspiracy, that would be a different matter. However, despite some criticisms of the fund’s finances and what it actually does, I don’t think anyone has suggested this is the case.

I have raced for many years, and for me this is a good day for cycling. It would be naive to think that this draws a line under doping; there will always be a struggle between the cheats and the people trying to catch them. However, this is a serious prosecution of a systematic and long term abuse of the sport. It sends a clear message that no-one is above the rules and this stuff won’t be brushed under the carpet. That trickles down to amateur level, which I think is great.

There aren’t really any surprises about the “revelations” and who has fessed up here. The big surprise is that USADA have managed to put together such a comprehensive prosecution, where others failed. They have plodded carefully away, gathering the evidence and following due process without being sensational, and in the end, that has fatally undermined Armstrong’s usual show boating, character assassination and indignant denials. I’m a bit cynical about the “honest” mea culpas from Hincapie et al. Let’s remember that even if they did stop doping in 2006, they obviously hoped they could keep their heads down and continue making a living from the sport, without confessing. I think they would probably have quietly retired without saying anything, if USADA had not backed them into a corner and compelled them to tell the truth.

There’s no reason to think that all rider’s performances would be raised to the same extent by using drugs.

All we know is that Lance was the best drug taking tour cyclist between 1999 and 2005.

Interesting article on the role of Livestrong and how their money is spent.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all

sorry ac282, we cant even say that.

he was the most secret drug taking american cyclist to compete in grand tours between 1999 and 2005 – is slightly closer.

if he wanted an open doped competition, he should have opened his version of the rules up to the world.

The “all doing it thus level playing field” has been proved to a false argument. There is an upper ceiling of blood values set by the UCI. The further you are naturally away from them then the more benefit you get from the drugs program to get up to them. Also the more money you have then the better the program. This is not a level playing field. Various books have more detailed argument – Tyler’s etc…

All we know is that Lance was the best drug taking tour cyclist between 1999 and 2005.

All we know is the drugs he took combined with the large amount of investment in team riders, aerodynamics, bikes etc. (and even valid things like training schedules, diet, ‘proper’ vitamin supplements etc. made him the fastest rider on the tour. I don’t think you could say he was the best drug taking cyclist on the tour, many others could have surpassed him but they didn’t have the financial backing to win and hence get the spotlight.

did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?

did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?

well who knows – no one can tell can they

Does anybody knowe what the USADA’s end game is?

Blacken his name…fraud charges…jail time

Look, LA isn’t admitting to cheating because he has worked it around in his mind that he hasn’t, wasn’t and can’t admit it even if he wanted to.

Ever since the days of Anquetil, possibly earlier. For some riders, the use of drugs was just as much a part of the sport as tyres.

Does anybody knowe what the USADA’s end game is?

Blacken his name…fraud charges…jail time

They have reached their end game, exposed a cheat and revealed the truth. The ball is no longer in their court.

At risk of sounding controversial I have my sympathies for Armstrong.
Drugs have been embedded in cycling for years, the late great Tommy Simpson being another example. According to friends/ family he held an anti-drug stance; moved to Europe and started using (speed back then I think). The reason quoted was that he wanted to compete with the top level competition and without drugs he could not.
Armstrong analysed the whole methodology necessary to win the tour a bit like BSkyB are doing now; he seems to have concluded that to win he would need the drugs that everyone else at the top end of the competition was using, unsurprising considering his complete focus upon the tour and incredible will to win.
I think he probably was the best at the time; the best rider, the best team and the best at taking drugs and not getting caught. Knowing what we know now can anyone be certain that the riders who came second to him in those seven years hadn’t also taken drugs.
In some ways I believe he is being put up a a scapegoat for the era.
I do think he is being an #rse by not assisting and agree with Hincapie it is to the future that we should be looking.

did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?

He might have been a better rider, but we’ll never know – we do now know he was taking banned performance enhancing drugs though.

did nobody ever just consider the fact he may have been a better rider?

From the extent of his preparation, it looks like Lance didn’t think he was a better rider than everyone else…

At risk of sounding controversial I have my sympathies for Armstrong.

I think many would agree with you if he hadn’t so agressively gone after people who were anti doping e.g. the report calls the Simeoni incident ‘one of the most shameful incidents in our sport’s history’ iirc

What I dont understand is he worked his nuts off (yeah ok nut), he obviously made sure he was fit as fitterly-be, bike work, aerodynamics, team tactics, team selection, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Then he takes chemicals.

Why? **** stupid ****.

He would have still won at least a handful of Tours I bet.

Look at the plastic bag that felled him, he got up and with grim determination stormed up and won on a broken pedal and probably in a bit of pain. That shows a man utterly driven to win. Yet his foible was to smack up like the rest of them.

**** stupid ****.

Now fast-forward. Look at how dominant our Olympic team has been. I dont CARE that its because the velodrome was in England for the Games. Bollocks. When there was a French complaint that the Brits must be using ‘special wheels’ I thought ‘wheels or the engine’?

Sorry, if individuals can evade justice for so long- how? Is cycling REALLY clean NOW?

Listen to what Armstrong is saying about not being able fess-up.
For me this helps illustrate how he views his actions.

Start at 1:50

Armstrong:
“he doesn’t feel like he’s guilty“

I believe LA thinks the same way. Whether he will always hold to his current view of what he has done, only time will tell.

The sport is still full of hypocrisy, e.g. Wiggins going on about the great Tom Simpson, during this years tour – reverence for a drug cheat, what’s all that about? Yet suggest Team Sky are like US Postal and he get’s all upset…..

Reading on further it still smacks of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency having a taste of sour grapes in their mouths, Lance outwitted them game set and match

He would have still won at least a handful of Tours I bet.

No, he would have been lucky to make the top 100.

I don’t understand why everyone thinks that taking drugs is the path too easy sucsess without effort, its not they take drugs on top of doing everything else. In fact the drugs allow them to train harder, then train harder again the next day, when an unassisted rider would still need time for his body to recover.

Reading on further it still smacks of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency having a taste of sour grapes in their mouths, Lance outwitted them game set and match

He is not the messiah, he is a very naughty boy!

Lance outwitted them game set and match

Not really, he and others… just used in a way that the tests of the time couldn’t detect. Which, really, was down to the medicos who knew what the tests could and couldn’t detect.

Now that more sensitive tests and proceedures such as those that Ashenden has helped to devise are coming in. Old samples are now showing positive results…

An arms race, kinda situation.

No, he would have been lucky to make the top 100.

I call bollocks. Sorry bollocks.

I don’t understand why everyone thinks that taking drugs is the path too easy sucsess without effort, its not they take drugs on top of doing everything else. In fact the drugs allow them to train harder, then train harder again the next day, when an unassisted rider would still need time for his body to recover.

The Millar & Hamilton books underline this, especially Hamilton’s. The extent of fitness, weight loss & power development was immense – the doping took this up a level. In fact, Hamilton said he was not offered EPO until he got fit & lean enough.

from a non-roadie outsider like myself one thing has become pretty clear to me, and im sure this is the way LA is probably thinking…

by the sounds of the damning report of co riders, people he rode against etc etc etc, its pretty fair to say that yes he was cheating, but so was pretty much everyone else around him, the amount of people that have come out and admitted to cheating (big names), and no doubt a massive amount of people whom havent come out and admitted…

therefore pretty much as funkydunc above says, its a level ground, he was just the best rider in a bunch of cheats….id be totally against him if he was the only one, but it was a level playing field (pretty much) and he wont 5 in a row, and other drug cheats around him would have being doing more and more to stay in contention of him and they still couldnt get close….

i dont know why its not just laid to bed, it really does seem like a witch hunt, when reality is that the whole tour clearly from around that period was flawed, and ultimately they didnt trace his drugs at the time…..the tour then has to take some of the blame for its lack or inability to trace the drug users surely?

he cheated yes, but from what im reading so did pretty much every one else….how can they just witch hunt him because he was a better cheat than the people he raced against!?!

basically if he hadnt have won, whose to say the person next 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th placed rider wasnt doing it too?

just put the tour down to a cheat era around then and leave it at that….

contador has been found guilty and stripped today of a tour or two in modern day society, so it still goes on, minimal fuss really, he got stripped of his tours, and is now back riding pro again…this witch hunt against lance just seems a bit to personal for what ever reason….

Lance outwitted them game set and match

No he didn’t when he had the chance to defend himself he chose to turn, run and try to undermine the work they’d done…

I call bollocks. Sorry bollocks.

You still don’t understand this issue at all.

I was a big Lance fan growing up so am a bit saddened by how his career will now be remembered. It’s pretty clear from the evidence that he doped but it also seems everyone else he was racing against was at it as well.

The sad truth is that most of the pasts cycling greats doped from the beginnings of the tour, even the likes of Merckx and Coppi admitted to doping and are still considered as some of the greatest cyclists of all time.

any pro sportsman or woman who has to resort to taking drugs to win should not be called a pro simple, they are just sportsmen or women or cant hack it with the true sports stars of the day, im sure there are still lots of sports people still willing to chance taking drugs to win, but in my book if you have to cheat to win then why bother in the first place, i would much rather look at my last place medal than look at my first place medal knowing i cheated to get it, i also dont agree with sports stars who because they admit what they have done should get a second chance, theres thousands of sports people who dont get into the big teams because of these dopers and cheats, there is of course the big reason why so many sportspeople choose to do it in the first place is it the money involved or the fear of failure or what i think that thats the only way they can win or keep winning, lance armstrong another knob bites the dust.

OscillateWidly.

If I may, I’d point out that LA and the other cheats in the peloton, were bumping clean riders either to the rear of the peloton or completely out of the sport.

So, imo, no, it wasn’t really a “LA was the best of a bad bunch” scenario at all.

i would much rather look at my last place medal than look at my first place medal knowing i cheated to get it

Aye, but doesn’t that depend on where you set the bar to define Cheating ?. Some athletes obviously set that bar way low, etc, etc.

i also dont agree with sports stars who because they admit what they have done should get a second chance, theres thousands of sports people who dont get into the big teams because of these dopers and cheats

imo, Its not that black-n-white. Also, in the context of Pro cycling, a lot of riders made it to being pro, as clean riders, only then to be pressured / turned to taking drugs.

he cheated yes, but from what im reading so did pretty much every one else….how can they just witch hunt him because he was a better cheat than the people he raced against!?!

You might be able to make that argument if it wasn’t also for the fact he has been shown to have pressured other riders to take part in doping, and bullied and harassed those that spoke out about it.

He could have put his energies and authority into racing clean. After all he is no pushover.

Solo – Member

OscilateWidly.

If I may, I’d point out that LA and the other cheats in the peloton, were bumping clean riders either to the rear of the peloton or completely out of the sport.

So, imo, no, it wasn’t really a “LA was the best of a bad bunch” scenario at all.

i do appreciate, not everyone would have been cheating, and for those who were’nt its an awful thing…but i think its fair to say, most of his team mates were doing it, whats to say other teams were not doing the same just to stay in contention of him?

generally speaking though it does appear alot of riders from around that era have been found guilty of it, and as its so open and unknown now whose to say everyone around the era was’nt? its really flawed in saying it wasnt a level par, as at the time armstrong was never found to be cheating, so years on whose to say the other teams/riders near to him werent doing exactly the same?

at the time armstrong was never found to be cheating

Yes he was, it was covered up, really how hard is this to understand.

solo. imo, Its not that black-n-white. Also, in the context of Pro cycling, a lot of riders made it to being pro,only then to be pressured / turned to taking drugs.

my statement still stands what type of sportsman does that make you, same thing different sport would you take a dive in boxing to further your career