UK Election!

As for socialist views, if it was up to me the schools would be removed all together so worrying about VAT would be moot.

And I think thats a fair point, it is in reality the only way to go.

The VAT on school fees will mostly effect the hard working middle earners. The ‘super rich’ will still continue to go to private school regardless of VAT changes, and therefore society becomes even more elitist

The money you are spending on fees without VAT would be spent on something else that would incur VAT.  So that’s the cost.

The people with shed loads of money will be paying VAT on school fees and VAT on their other purchases. No cloth will need to be cut, no cutting back and no Sky subs to be cancelled!! 🙂

It’ll be a small blip on their bottom line.

You mean those richest few % in our society.  middle earners cannot afford private schools.  The very fact you can afford private schooling puts you firmly in the rich bracket.  average (ie middle earners) earnings are around £30 000 pa.

Private education makes normal schools worse because the people with the money and power have no stake in them since they pay to have their children educated separately

Rubbish, all that will happen is the kids that went to private schools will get into the better state schools where standards are already high, parents will either move house to be in the right catchment or find some other way of muscling into the good state schools. They certainly won’t waste time to improve the local comp with a bad rep.

Plus which ever way you slice it the state has to pay for an extra pupil.

somafunk said “According to a labour speaking head on R4 World at One, it’s Data servers that will save our economy, thank god…….”

did you read that recent report into the environmental impact of data servers. Maybe not the panacea people might think. Someone calculated that the energy used by data servers and infrastructure to facilitate the one billion+ views of some obscure foreign influencer/pop star last year (no idea who it was) was the equivalent needed to heat 40000 homes for a year.

Yep data centres are massive users of energy, both for the running of the servers ands the air conditioning systems they need. In the HVAC industry data centres are a sought after category in their own right.

It’s also worth pointing out that not all private / public schools are either wealthy or elitist. I get that when they are mentioned most people immediately think of the Charterhouses and Eatons of this world but there are quite a few private schools that are nowhere near that league. For a number of parents, they are disillusioned with the state school system and want to provide what they feel is the best possible educational foundation for their kids. And if they can afford it, why not? I understand the socialist dream of not having private / public schools but I don’t believe getting rid of them is the answer. And poorly performing state schools are not rubbish because private schools exist. And if we go down this road, where do we stop on freedom of choice to spend your own, earned money? Abolish private health care? Remove private cars because of their pollution and mandate everyone either walks, cycles or uses public transport? Only approved goods can be purchased? Do away with all luxury goods because it’s usually only the rich that can afford to buy them?

I am not even convinced that appointed Lords are necessarily any more desirable than hereditary ones. Some of the existing life ones have dubious reasons for being in the House of Lords.

The lords presumably will block anything too radical?  I’m not sure elected house is actually that good either – but I think you could easily define something both fairer and cheaper.  If I was him I’d have announced a royal commission so he could say he wasn’t gaming it for Labour benefit.

Abolish private health care? Remove private cars because of their pollution and mandate everyone either walks, cycles or uses public transport?

Are you new here? That sounds like a dream manifesto for a big chunk of the people on here.

Remove private cars because of their pollution and mandate everyone either walks, cycles or uses public transport?

I’d settle for properly funded public transport and active travel infrastructure so at least it’s more of a real choice.

Data server carbon footprint is huge.  It’s also quite hard to calculate how much as firms are quite secretive about how much energy they use.  AI seems to be totally hiding it’s energy figures, so other methods of calculating it are used to come up with best guesses.

Estimated that 3% of global energy is used by data centres.  Obviously the CO2 intensity of that electricity varies across the world, it’s hefty though!

I have some (not a lot, but some) sympathy for the “some people want good education for their children and work hard and forego stuff to be able to just about afford to send them to a private school. If VAT is added, they’ll no longer be able to afford it” argument.

However, practically speaking, a quick Google tells me that average private school fees are about £16k a year. So, if adding VAT may make it unaffordable for some and the child no longer goes to a private school, they’ll then have £16k a year to spend on tutoring, trips, clubs, holidays to interesting places etc, all of which will still significantly enhance their child’s state education.

The lords presumably will block anything too radical?

Unlikely if it’s part of the manifesto and they get a good mandate. For the Lords to block it in those circumstances would precipitate a constitutional crisis.

Canada has no private healthcare.  IIRC at least one of the Scandi countries has no private schools.

Both private schools and private healthcare actu8ally make the state provision worse by removing dedicated practitioners from the state system whose education has been paid for by the state.  Both entrench inequality as well

How much are these lessor private schools fees? I’ll bet well out of reach for the average person – you know middle earners on £30 000ish PA

George Watsons in Edinburgh are £17500 pa for seniors as an example

Yeah, the Parliament Act basically says that the Lords can’t block something that’s in a Party’s manifesto

And poorly performing state schools are not rubbish because private schools exist.

I’m pretty sure the evidence disagrees with you there.

Private schools are always elitist by their very nature. They exist to separate the children of the wealthy from the poor with all their chaos and annoying needs.

Education and healthcare are special cases within society, since they form the very foundation of the social contract – everyone should have an equal chance at a decent life.

It’s not about freedom of choice for the very few who can afford it, it’s about equality of outcome for everyone. The rich kids will still succeed because their parents are usually well educated and engaged, even in the state system.

No-one wants to deprive you of anything, we want to give you a better, healthier society for you children and grandchildren to live in. We love you, despite your selfish tendencies.

You mean those richest few % in our society.  middle earners cannot afford private schools.  The very fact you can afford private schooling puts you firmly in the rich bracket.  average (ie middle earners) earnings are around £30 000 pa.

Thanks I am very much aware of how much I earn compared to the national average.

I also know that if this happens I probably wont be able to afford to send my kid to private school, and having had conversations with others they may not be able to either. However there is a % of people that 20% extra cost will make naff all difference to. Therefore it becomes even more elitist than it was before.

So, if adding VAT may make it unaffordable for some and the child no longer goes to a private school, they’ll then have £16k a year to spend on tutoring, trips, clubs, holidays to interesting places etc, all of which will still significantly enhance their child’s state education.

Agreed – we will be significantly better off if we pull our son out of private school and would certainly be looking towards additional tutoring to make up for the shortfall in working day.

I am sure all teachers offering additional tutoring put it on their self assessment form as additional income 🙂

The rich kids will still succeed because their parents are usually well educated and engaged, even in the state system.

Possibly, or actually, and it might surprise some people, people get rich from working bloody hard for it. Both Mrs FD and my parents were brought up on council estates. Mrs FD was the first person in her family to go to university. Both of us went to our respective state schools. 30 years ago we both had no money at all. We have both worked bloody hard for it, and now we are doing what we can to give our son the best start in life.

Are people suggesting that the best start in life we can give him is to send him to the most shit school we can find as that helps him and society? Or do we send him to a school that inspires him to achieve ? I wish the school I went to had given me half the skills my son has been given so far.

it’s about equality of outcome for everyone

it’s about equality of opportunity, not outcome.

I also know that if this happens I probably wont be able to afford to send my kid to private school, and having had conversations with others they may not be able to either. However there is a % of people that 20% extra cost will make naff all difference to. Therefore it becomes even more elitist than it was before.

To me this suggests that we should take an alternative approach. Perhaps make them cheaper, maybe even free. Of course, some central funding will then be involved but I think that’s ok as now everyone will be able to attend regardless of economic background. Elitism solved!

How much are these lessor private schools fees? I’ll bet well out of reach for the average person – you know middle earners on £30 000ish PA

Don’t really know. Possibly somewhere around the £8k – £10k. And that is probably easily within reach of a couple of middle earners – if it’s something they feel strongly enough about committing to.

molgripsFree Member
it’s about equality of outcome for everyone
it’s about equality of opportunity, not outcome.

That shows a lack of ambition.

Possibly somewhere around the £8k – £10k.

My entirely unscientific survey of the one private school I know of in the vicinity suggested around £8k per term for someone in years 7-11.

You get lunch for that though.

I’m not sure elected house is actually that good either – but I think you could easily define something both fairer and cheaper.

There has to be some democratic input for it to be a meaningful reform, even if it isn’t direct elections.

I don’t think that cost is an issue – I can’t imagine that we are talking about large sums of money. Criticism of the House of Lords is centered on the fact that it is unrepresentative, and undemocratic.

Labour has already looked into the issue in quite a lot of detail:

The Brown commission’s proposals on reform of the House of Lords

Numbers at his school have already dropped post COVID.

Then they’d be wise to soak up the VAT to hold prices the same. Might mean some cuts I suppose. Bigger class sizes. Not fixing leaks in the roof. Selling off playing fields. You know… the shit most schools have been going through while Labour have been in opposition.

I we suggesting that the best start in life we can give him is to send him to the most shit school we can find as that helps him and society?

There wouldn’t be any shit schools if there wasn’t an escape route for the rich via private schools. The people with power would make sure all schools were good if there was a chance their kids had to go there.

What do you think Sunak’s attitude to teachers would be if his daughters had to go to the local school in Yorkshire whilst he’s pretending he lives there?

Criticism of the House of Lords is centered on the fact that it is unrepresentative, and undemocratic.

And has far too many members. All these Conservative PMs we’ve had having a go… each one stuffing the house with more mates… makes some kind of reform inevitable. HoL reform has to happen now. The choice is between tinkering and major reform.

Data centres are important, but they don’t run on fresh air. Electricity production is most important.

I was watching the various party’s and  I think the Green Party most closely align with my thoughts, but I can’t help thinking that I should vote labour as we can’t be doing with either a hung parliament / coalition, or more time with the Tories in power.

There’s a lot of people out there that have lsot faith and think that not voting, or spoiling their vote is much more productive, however I think that that just makes the situation worse – by that token you could say so does my voting intention.

I think Labour’s a pretty safe seat here, so maybe the Green’s might be worth a punt, but will it count for anything?

Don’t really know. Possibly somewhere around the £8k – £10k. And that is probably easily within reach of a couple of middle earners

So two middle earners – lets be generous and say thats £35000pa each – so take home into the household will be around 50 000 ish?  ( back of rizla packet calculations) ( disposable income after housing say £40000 pa.  Two kids at private school – so thats £20 000 pa minimum? half of their disposable income?   ( and I bet average fees are a lot more than that- #Watsons is a middle rank school in Edinburgh at £17000pa

Hardly easily within reach.  Again I think the issue here is richer folk not realising how rich they are.  Middle earners are around £30 000pa or maybe a bit more.

Edit – recalculate because I misread – 8-10 k a term?

~so in my above sums using Watsons fees – two kids is £35000 pa ie almost the entire  disposable income of two middle earners

There’s no way round it no matter what some people are saying on here.

If you send your child to private school, ya rich. 

The costs of most schools per year are beyond what I earn and I consider myself to be well off. Clearly I’m poor.

My entirely unscientific survey of the one private school I know of in the vicinity suggested around £8k per term for someone in years 7-11.

One school in our vicinity it is £7.3k for one child per year for years 7-11. So, yeah, it varies. 🙂

No-one has said why private schools shouldn’t have to charge VAT

There wouldn’t be any shit schools if there wasn’t an escape route for the rich via private schools. The people with power would make sure all schools were good if there was a chance their kids had to go there.

What do you think Sunak’s attitude to teachers would be if his daughters had to go to the local school in Yorkshire whilst he’s pretending he lives there?

I think this is a bit of a utopian view. Even of there were no private schools there would still be shit schools, and they’d probably by the ones in the poorest areas, unless you’re going to fix poverty too (and no-ones found a way of doing that). The ones in the better off areas would have excellent facilities paid for in large part by very well-funded PTAs. I’m sure Rishi’s local school would have an excellent music department and tennis court for example.

Rishi Sunak refuses to say if he had told close aide Craig Williams the date of the election before he placed £100 bet on when it would happen

so how much was your cut then Prime Minister ? And have you paid Piers Morgan yet ?

My state school in the 70s took most of its kids from the schemes and had far better facilities than any fee paying school in the city ( glasgow).  swimming pool, 2 gyms and a sports hall big enough for football with a climbing wall, fully equipped drama studio, up to date language labs, 3 outdoor football pitches, specialist lecture theaters for 5th year, no class over 30 and 15 for sciences, lots of extra curricular activities

Shit schools are a political choice

No-one has said why private schools shouldn’t have to charge VAT

I’m not really sure. As others have said, by charging VAT on fees it will drive the costs for parents up and will consequently take some parents out of the market. Which may well reduce the numbers in the school. Which reduces the school income and consequently on any income HMRC are likely to make out it. Plus they will then be able to start reclaiming VAT on stuff they currently don’t. As a policy, sure, it gets the vote and approval of those who against private schools. But will there be much of a net gain to the tax take? I suspect not. And those that then do take their kids out of private schools, how many of them will then spend some of that “saved” money on private tuition – something that will have zero impact on raising the standards of the state schools that the kids are now in. Plus extra kids that the local authority are now paying for that they previously weren’t.

South Shropshire:  Lib Dems actually did it once (2001).  I hear something has slithered away from danger in Wolverhampton this time for the unspeakables.   Good luck.

Farmers seem to be the ones who regularly get screwed over by tory governments and yet keep on pushing them. Its like some form of BDSM for them.

They pushed my dad too far, and he ended up disliking them. Former party member like most of my family. (They loved me!).  Same constituency, or its smaller predecessor.

biuking catastrophe – so £15000 pa for two junior school kids – still not affordable for middle earners is it?  1/3 – 1/2 of two middle earners disposable income ish?

Shit schools are a political choice

I think you’re going to have to explain that one for us, because as a statement that doesn’t stand up.

And I don’t think that comparing your school in the 70’s is especially relevant to the debate today. I would say that most state schools were better in the 70’s than they are now in comparison to now. Smaller population, newer schools, a lot of comprehensives that were only just out of being grammar schools, fewer pulls on the national budgets, education and local council funding etc etc.

I feel this is a bit of a rabbit hole in the overall election debate. There are bigger issues to address than whether private schools should VAT, IMHO. But it does highlight why it’s hard for any individual party to find agreement from all about their policies.

Even of there were no private schools there would still be shit schools,

That’s undoubtedly true, but no reason to aim low. Reach for the stars, as S-Club say.