UK Election!

What’s the alternative to growth?

The cost of borrowing has gone up massively, so that’s not the option that it was 15 years ago.

PrinceJohn

Has anyone seen any vote Conservative boards in anyone’s gardens? I’ve seen a few Labour & a few Lib Dem, but not a single Conservative one.

Lots in farmers field’s near me (Cambs/Lincs border) for the absolute dickhead John Hayes. We had a pamphlet for him through the door.

I have no idea what sort of seat (safe or otherwise) ours will be this time around. Thanks to boundary changes its all new! We used to be part of Tynemouth ward so Labour since 1997, and Conservative before that (The Evil Rotter (Neville Trotter.) No idea what the outcome will be this time around, but we’ve had nothing from any of the candidates thus far (flyers or doorstep), and only one house with a Lab poster in their window.

Seen two Conservative posters in gardens today in North Devon, Barnstaple area.  Not noticed any others for any party though so it does seem very quiet on the Giant Placards front.

Yeah this campaign is dragging on.

I wish they’d stop trying to prove how “Man of the People” and down to earth working class they all are. The whole “my Dad was a toolmaker” and “we didn’t have Sky TV” nonsense is just cringingly painful.

What I actually want is for Starmer to say “yes, I’m pretty comfortable, the point is that everyone should be pretty comfortable…” and then lay out plans to do that and point out that 14 years of austerity has done exactly the opposite.

Instead he’s more or less copying this whole “grow the economy” nonsense. You’re not going to grow the economy unless you actually invest in people and infrastructure. Oh yeah and reverse Brexit. That massive elephant in the room that they’re all walking carefully around.

Quote from Rone: “(I tell you why the campaign seems it’s dragged on because you all inherently know the big win is not going to be that much of a push back.)”

I fear the above is sadly correct. There will be a measure of relief and some change – but not enough, and not enough in the right directions. The ultra-caution approach of Labour is becoming stultifying.

I’m looking forward to change because it’s very overdue, and i’ll enjoy the spectacle of the tory party falling apart and eating itself – and then the man-frog will gulp them up like the man-phibian demagogue he is. Hopefully it’ll fatally poison him politically.

The whole “my Dad was a toolmaker” and “we didn’t have Sky TV” nonsense is just cringingly painful.

These are less familiar to folks than you’d believe though, For huge swathes of the population, politics isn’t on their radar at all, and the fact the Starmer’s dad was a toolmaker or Rishi’s folks couldn’t afford Sky is news.

They could afford it of course. They didn’t let him watch the independent terrestrial broadcaster at home… why would they get Sky for him not to watch as well?

see this I don’t get. The mentality that you are so embarrassed by the party you support that you don’t want to let anyone know you support them. Yet you vote for them anyways.

Theres a large house I walk past pretty often near here.

During the referendum they had Vote Leave banners up.

During the last 2 elections they had large Tory banners up.

Now? Nothing. I suspect they are still Tory or perhaps Reform but for “reasons” are unwilling to broadcast their affiliation.

Same people there as I recognise the company van.

“Sometimes people can be so wedded to an ideology that it makes them do stupid things. Hence they appear stupid even though they are not.”

^^ I made that quote up but it’s how I explain to myself how seemingly intelligent people might be hugely pro Brexit etc.

They aren’t stupid but they are exhibiting stupid behaviour… hence they get labelled as well, stupid but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true.

(If you don’t understand the above, you are stupid. 😁😉)

An awful lot of people don’t actually think about who they vote for, they just vote for who they’ve always voted for.

I post leaflets for the lib Dems and I do wonder what difference it makes.
A video on the tik tok is probably more effective.
Anyway ,we’ve got to do what we can to oust the scumbags.
Gina Miller is no doubt undoing all our hard work.

@zippykona I think the general consensus is that there’s a huge raft of voters who will never see a TikTok but will see a leaflet through the door.

What’s the alternative to growth?

Growth by itself is meaningless.

Growth is a byproduct of a well educated healthy population who have the opportunity to pursue their goals and aren’t unduly limited by their circumstances.

‘Business friendly’ has time and again been shown to be a code for screwing the population in general to increase value for shareholders.  And even then, they mean short term value for shareholders and not sustainable growth that will benefit people today and future generations.

But yeah, the only thing that matters is getting the Tories out, etc…

Gina Miller is no doubt undoing all our hard work.

Yep, she’s a real Enemy of the People.

@BruceWee

Growth by itself is meaningless.

Growth is a byproduct of a well educated healthy population who have the opportunity to pursue their goals and aren’t unduly limited by their circumstances.

‘Business friendly’ has time and again been shown to be a code for screwing the population in general to increase value for shareholders.  And even then, they mean short term value for shareholders and not sustainable growth that will benefit people today and future generations.

But yeah, the only thing that matters is getting the Tories out, etc…

Perhaps I’m missing something in your answer, but you don’t seem to be suggesting an alternative solution?

But yeah, the only thing that matters is getting the Tories out, etc…

It’s the first thing that matters, definitely not the only thing.

Without that first step being taken, everything else is moot.

Growth by itself is meaningless.

Absolutely.

Perhaps I’m missing something in your answer, but you don’t seem to be suggesting an alternative solution?

Second line:

Growth is a byproduct of a well educated healthy population who have the opportunity to pursue their goals and aren’t unduly limited by their circumstances.

None of the above is going to be achieved by focusing on making sure shareholders are getting the best returns possible in the next quarter.

The focus should always be on the population because it’s the right thing to do and, and I know this is going to blow some minds, but if every person country is well educated (or as well educated as they can be) and as healthy as they can be it creates exceptional value for businesses because they have a plethora of candidates who can be trained to do pretty much any job.

And they aren’t limited to accepting jobs that are within commuting distance of their parents’ spare rooms.

Without that first step being taken, everything else is moot.

If the second step is ‘Just do the same as the Tories’ then everything else is moot anyway.

In 5 years Labour will be replaced by an even more unhinged Tory party (or Reform party).

“Gina Miller is no doubt undoing all our hard work.

Yep, she’s a real Enemy of the People”

The libs have got a real chance of getting the Tories out.
Labour aren’t even campaigning in our area.
Miller said she would run if Grayling didn’t stand down. He has ,so why ruin a perfectly good chance to make a difference?
Miller won’t get in but she is helping a Trump supporting scumbag to get elected.

@BruceWee

Growth is a byproduct of a well educated healthy population who have the opportunity to pursue their goals and aren’t unduly limited by their circumstances.

Laudable goals that I entirely agree with. But you’ve not suggested how we’re going to achieve it.

Serious question, where do you think that the money is going to come from, if not from growth, seeing as borrowing isn’t really viable at the moment?

We do not need growth – we have plenty of “stuff”.  What we need is the wealth of the nation shared fairly.  I believe in the “no growth society”.

the alternative is mega death in climate catastrophe with growth or reduce the impact of climate change

Serious question, where do you think that the money is going to come from, if not from growth, seeing as borrowing isn’t really viable at the moment?

The Magic Money Tree of course. You haven’t been paying attention.

If the second step is ‘Just do the same as the Tories’ then everything else is moot anyway.

In 5 years Labour will be replaced by an even more unhinged Tory party (or Reform party).

We can keep the Tories in. That’s a choice we can make but it seems insane and we know where that direction choice leads as we’ve been living it. Can you imagine 5 more years of this? It has to end.

Labour are yet to be voted in. There will be policies they enact that wont work, there will be policies they enact that I really wont like. I’m not looking for perfect at this stage, I’m looking for better.

I truly believe, hand on heart, that Labour will try to improve the UK for the majority of it’s people. I can’t know if they will succeed in the endeavour but I’m onboard for the ride. If nothing else I won’t feel the government hate me and most of the rest of the country.

Not trying to sway you Bruce as I know I can’t but the above is how I feel at the moment and I know many other people do too.

They do, though, if you read them, and in particular they speak about how rich kids do significantly better than poor kids, which is a disgrace all across the UK.

I haven’t seen any indepth analysis of how, say Scottish poor students fair v’s English poor students or the most socially deprived in Spain, France etc.  I’d genuinely be interested in that – everything I see seems to be people trying to score political points that “Scotland is failing” or “England is improving” – they are based on an overall average.   Anyone that claims “Scottish Education is Failing” – I ask the question, have you met and properly conversed with a bunch of school leavers in Scotland?  I think the whole of society is failing a small proportion – but an awful lot are actually well informed, articulate, smart people – with good prospects ahead of them.  Scotland does have an issue with talking itself down.

They also show that Scotland’s secondary education system has been declining steadily against European peers since 2008 –

Once again, it doesn’t show anything about the system – it only tells you about the outputs – the attainment of 15 year olds. And only on the metrics they measure.  As an employer of STEM people I do want them to be able to read, understand maths and science.  I do see some shocking incompetence – but its just as important to me that people are able to communicate well, work in teams, show compassion for others, understand how to learn/find stuff out, have confidence and creativity and solve problems / don’t fall apart at the first hurdle.  Some of the most academically bright (who are likely to do well in any reading/maths/science test) are least capable in those wider skills.  If we get those right (I’m not saying we do) then you can probably “catch up” on the cap between 15-18.  After all Scottish universities typically have an extra year – so it might not be right to assume that a single measurement point at 15 is the best measure of schooling.

when the SNP took power from Labour in Scotland. Those two facts are not unconnected.

Probably one of the questions the 15 year olds answer is about the difference between causation and correlation!  2008 was a time of economic crisis – so given your comments about poorer kids going worse, did we decouple that?  its also when austerity came in across the UK so Scot Gov had less budget to spend.  Nobody can be sure that had Labour remained in Scotland that exactly the same would not have happened.  Labour haven’t really spelled out what they would do differently – one of the risks is change for change’s sake – it takes a generation to make those changes…

Serious question, where do you think that the money is going to come from, if not from growth, seeing as borrowing isn’t really viable at the moment?

Borrowing to give your rich friends a tax cut or to bribe the DUP maybe isn’t possible (well, it’s possible but probably not advisable).  However, borrowing to invest in the long term outlook for your population absolutely is.

But of course, if you subscribe to the household budget analogy then you have to raise the money first.  And you can’t do that because your population is not in a position to be productive enough to create actual growth.  All that can be done is to maximise shareholder returns for a few more years so at least they can point to the GDP numbers and say, ‘See, it’s working’.  Therefore, the UK is stuck in a death spiral anyway so what’s the point?

Just as well governments don’t actually work like the household budget analogy and can borrow money for investment anytime they want*.

*Note, I’m not a huge MMT proponent but it is far closer to reality than the household budget analogy.  There are obviously limitations but if a government is going to spend sensibly then there is not a great deal limiting it in its borrowing.

However, borrowing to invest in the long term outlook for your population absolutely is.

It was when rates were low. I’m not certain that you can say that it’s viable currently. A huge amount of money is spent every month servicing interest on government debt because rates have gone up. That’s part of the bind that we’re in. If we borrow more, even more goes on interest.

Serious question, where do you think that the money is going to come from, if not from growth, seeing as borrowing isn’t really viable at the moment?

Apart from borrowing is viable – especially so if the end result is a more productive country.

Who say borrowing is not viable, oh yes Starmers Labour party.  I take it you agree with them.

Lab manifesto has one sentence about active travel, and loads about roads. Party of hard-working motorists it is!

Miller won’t get in but she is helping a Trump supporting scumbag to get elected.

She’s not.

She is stating her policies and asking people to vote for her.  If this is taking votes from the LibDems then maybe they should have a look at what she is saying that people seem to like so much and start saying the same things.

Is that photo legit?!

It was when rates were low. I’m not certain that you can say that it’s viable currently. A huge amount of money is spent every month servicing interest on government debt because rates have gone up. That’s part of the bind that we’re in. If we borrow more, even more goes on interest.

Again, the household budget analogy does not apply to a country with it’s own currency.  It doesn’t even really apply to countries that don’t have their own currencies.

Time and again it has been shown that not borrowing and investing is far more damaging that trying to austerity your way to growth.

Anyway, someone who can be bothered to type it all out will be along in a minute to explain in endless detail why the household budget analogy is wrong 🙂

Is that photo legit?!

Did the Sunak’s actually live above the Pharmacy?  I highly doubt it and would think that was rented out to one of those types that has Sky TV.

neilnevill
Free Member
Is that photo legit?!

Questionable I think. Funny though!

The road furniture looks too modern to me?

Again, the household budget analogy does not apply to a country with it’s own currency.

Agreed.

However, one of the key tenets of MMT, as I understand it, is that it relies on taxation to control inflation. So as inflation is already high, it’s likely that taxes will need to go up.

I don’t have a problem with this. But I also think that nobody is helped by pretending that this isn’t the reality that we’re in.

But I also think that nobody is helped by pretending that this isn’t the reality that we’re in.

And I don’t think that anybody is helped by pretending it’s possible to return a country to growth by austerity and lack of investment.

Regardless of whether the Sunak Pharmacy photo is legit NoContextBrits is one of the few enjoyable things on Tweetarse

Probably one of the questions the 15 year olds answer is about the difference between causation and correlation!  2008 was a time of economic crisis

…which occurred just about everywhere else in the OECD. Austerity too occurred commonly across Europe, and everywhere in the UK. And yet it is specifically Scotland’s scores that dropped.

What’s the purpose in denying objective data gathered across multiple countries over many years that clearly show a decline in Scottish secondary education? All this nonsense about suggesting Welsh or Scottish people are inherently “thick” or denying that data can ever show the quality of education – why bother?

one of the risks is change for change’s sake – it takes a generation to make those changes…

The SNP has had a generation to implement its changes – 16 years specifically – and it’s been a colossal disaster. They’ve managed to deliver even worse results than the Tories in England. That’s shocking. They and their fans should own it rather than cast around for far-fetched theoretical data bickering or try to separate their performance in government in Scotland from their platform in a General Election. It’s embarrassing.

So Labour are saying they will go ahead with VAT on Private School fees.

A cynical ‘class’ vote winner or something of real benefit? An interesting paper here https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/independent-schools-proposed-vat-changes/#:~:text=On%2023%20May%202024%20the,would%20have%20on%20those%20schools. which I think concludes is that no one truly knows what net value it will bring to the economy, indeed one independent report says it will cost more to the economy, which therefore infers its just an attack on the rich to win votes.

Our son goes to a private school, we will seriously have to consider pulling him out. Numbers at his school have already dropped post COVID. The school is already trying to increase its overseas pupils to offset the increase in costs.

The local state school is already over subscribed, the private school facilities are truly part of the local social economy with its facilities being used by lots of local groups. No the school wont close tomorrow, but there are very serious concerns about its future if this change does come in.