Bit of background to this: I've previously run tubeless on a ztr 29er rim with Gorilla tape and previous tyres were a Ground Control and then a Nobby Nic. It has been absolutely fine and so I know there's no issue with the wheel. I recently bought a Purgatory tubeless tyre from the lbs but was having a nightmare trying to fit it as it as it wouldn't seat properly. Phoned the lbs and they said that as I would be providing the valve and it was already taped, they'd fit it for £10, which was fine for me.
I took it to the lbs and they said they'd put new tape on it (Gorilla tape), a new valve and fresh sealant. I didn't ask how much that would cost as I figured it would be a reasonable amount as it was in their workshop.
They fitted the tyre, pumped it up and all was well again. Until they presented the cost: £28.50. I was surprised by that but paid out of good grace, walked out the shop, decompressed, had a think and then decided it was an unreasonable amount and returned back to the shop.
When I queried why I had been a) been charged for a full roll of Gorilla tape and b) why £5 when I could get it from B&Q for half the price, the bike shop assistant stared at me with the kind of "Why are you still here?" kind of look. Total indifference and CGAF. I asked to see the manager and was introduced to the owner. The shop has recently changed hands so this was a new owner with new staff.
The owner explained the breakdown like this:
- Charged full 8.1m roll of Gorilla tape because the workshop mechanic double-wrapped the rim and told me the rest of the roll was no use (although I've always single-wrapped as Gorilla tape is fairly heavy duty);
- Charged full rrp for a sachet of Muc-off sealant from the shelf;
- The valves were, according to the owner, 'cheap' (not the £22 Muc-off ones);
By this stage the shop was filling up with customers so I decided to leave as the owner was clearly getting very defensive and a bit shouty. It's been a week since that incident and I've been mulling over a few things for further 'wwstw do' discussion:
1. Is it standard practice for bike shops to charge a customer for a full roll of Gorilla tape for one wheel?;
2. Is it standard practice for bike shops to charge a customer for a sachet of sealant when presumably the workshop must have larger bulk-buy versions of it?;
3. Do/should bike shop owners/operators calculate what is fair and reasonable wastage, and at what point does the percentage of the product use constitute passing on the cost to the customer?
These are my alternative calculations (happy to be sense-checked):
1. A 5 litre bottle direct from Muc-Off: £120. This equates to = approx.£2.40/100ml. So for 140ml, say around £2.70;
2. 9m roll of Gorilla Tape from B&Q (couldn't find 8.1m rolls): £2.95. This equates to approx. 32p / metre. If charged £5 at the lbs price = approx. 62p/metre;
3. Fitting tape:
- external rim circumference of a 29" rim is 77" (rounded up);
- double-wrapped the rim, so the total length of tape needed would be 154" (392cm)
- an 8.1m roll is good for 2 x 29" wheels double-wrapped;
- £1.28 based on B&Q price/metre; £2.48 based on lbs price/metre if it was charged only on tape used for the customer;
4. Therefore, price based on usage from 5l bottle of sealant and only charging the customer for what they use on the tape at reasonable price per roll:
£2.70 + £1.28 = £3.98 + £5 (valve) + £10 (labour) = £19 (rounded up).
On the subject of bulk-buy: do Muc-off sell larger bulk-buy items direct for use in workshops, because I presume workshops would get through 5l pretty quickly? Gorilla tape is also sold in much larger rolls, therefore price/metre comes down. In that case, the bike shop owner could still charge c.£19 for a tyre fitting + rim tape, valve and sealant, but take a larger profit.
Instead, it seems to me that the workshop are charging me full rrp for individual items and charging me for their wastage. This seams unreasonable. Take things a bit further: if they're using this same approach for every customer, they're grossly profiteering and not managing their waste.
I appreciate that this is a matter of pennies and pounds, but it's the principle which arises out of paying what is reasonable and fair and returning to the shop v what is unreasonable and never going back to the shop.
I struggle with long sentences....sorry.....but a bit surprised a bike shop used gorilla tape.
I've seen places charge £50 extra to supply a new bike tubeless. So by that yardstick it seems a fair price.
Ignore the breakdown and consider the end product. You couldn't make it work, they did and probably aren't going home in a Lamborghini when they close up.
I've never seen 24mm gorilla tape on anything bigger than a small roll.
Of the bike jobs I've done fitting tyres tubelessly either goes well or descends into a drawn out battle chasing weepy sidewalls, leaky valves or tape. I wouldn't complain myself.
So you calculate parts cost at £19 and they fitted it for £9.50? Or have I read that wrong?
£28.50 sounds reasonable I think.
Edit: I did read it wrong, missed the £10 labour you'd included.
In the amount of time you took to type that post you could have fitted it yourself.
Using Stan's tape or similar after someone has already used gorilla tape would mean spending more time (£££) cleaning off the gunk so it stuck down properly.
If someone brings a wheels to me that's had gorilla tape, I give it back to them to scrub all the goo off. It maybe cheap, but it's horrendous to remove.
Bird tubeless tape all the way.
If I couldn’t get a tubeless tyre to seal, and my lbs could, I wouldn’t consider £28.50 to be unreasonable.
You’re not just paying for the things used, you’re paying for the shops collective experience, just because you can find something cheaper on the internet doesn’t mean the shop already had it in at that price.
I know several bike shop owners, none of them can afford a lamborghini, a 5 yo transit is about as good as it gets.
If £50 is the going rate, then fair enough, I got a good deal. My question was more to do with whether a customer should be charged for excessive wastage and whether or not workshops normally buy in bulk.
CFH, shortbread, I wrote a long post to give the necessary background to assist those who provided a considered response. Sorry for wasting five minutes of your day ...
Sounds like you know the cost of everything but underestimated the value of experience, suck it up
Your prices are what you pay for them. The shop is unlikely to buy the volume b&q do so they price accordingly. Also, how often do they do tubeless? Will the bulk buy spoil before it is used? Suspect it isn't frequent so taking a pack off shelf is the answer.
Maybe ask for a rundown of what they'll do before agreeing so you have an idea of best/worst costs.
If you don't like the pricing, don't use them again (and spend more time persevering yourself).
I think you need to forget about what you think the parts and consumables are worth.
You couldn't get it to work, they did. And it cost you £28.50. That's quite reasonable, considering the store is not a charity.
The only thing I would take issue with is, they should have contacted you to let you know the job would cost more, when they realized the tape and valve would need to be replaced.
Bit surprised they charged you for an individual sachet of sealant, I see your point there, that is the most expensive way to do it.
Sounds like a perfectly reasonable price, if anything on the cheap side. I'd expect £20 labour plus parts.
they’re grossly profiteering
Down with the capitalist pigs!!!!!!
Hello op. I genuinely do see where you are coming from and I have no great love for the 2 lbs near me after a couple of poor experiences but I genuinely think that you have paid about the going rate.
That said, it does no harm to ask the shop about its pricing as you did or to post on here asking, otherwise how are any of us to know what is a fair amount to pay?👍
Doesn't seem crazy expensive.
I'm about half as quick as a good LBS mechanic. Setting up a wheelset tubeless properly would take me an hour all in. Bear in mind I'd be using a compressor which has to be bought. So say half an hour to an hour labour could be £20 on it's own.
Remove old stuff
Clean rim, degrease and dry
Tape and valve in
Tyre on with tube to press tape in
Tyre on and inflate with sealant
Chase any leaks
Ride
So £28 for someone to do it inc parts would be good. As said above no LBS mechanics and owners are off home in a lambo.
Whatever tape is left after my LBS finishes a new wheel is always handed over to me with the wheel, did you get the 8.1M of tape?
Apart from that, doesn’t seem too unreasonable.
I think that sounds unnecessarily expensive, but you probably should have asked for a price first. When I've needed help like this my lbs will use my materials and just st charges labour.
Businesses don't charge people what people can scour the internet for and find at better prices.
I enjoyed your detailed run down anyway so thanks for that. Remind me never to work in a shop 😂👊
Gorilla tape is not the right tool for the job and they presumably only used it because you had already bodged it. As others have said I would be asking you to remove the tape and all residue (as it wouldn't be worth my time) and then I would do it using proper tubeless tape. If forced to use Gorilla tape then no the rest of the roll is no good to me as I wouldn't use it for anyone else.
The fact you couldn't do it but they could is strange to start with (they just appeared put even more tape on and a new valve), maybe you should have tried harder or just accept you will have to pay whatever someone charges to sort it out for you.
No, I don't think you've been overcharged.
The only bit I don’t get is why a new valve was needed
The only bit I don’t get is why a new valve was needed
I've had valves that the core couldn't be removed and they were too restrictive of air flow to allow popping the beads, some are too short for deep rims like Velocity blunts and some have different shapes rubber bases that catch the beads or don't seal easily.
A couple of points
1) you only use 1 wrap of tape. This might be why it didn't seal.
2) it's a new shop, perhaps the previous owner went bust or couldn't make a living because he couldn't charge enough and sold stuff at discount just so he could pay the bills and staff wages?
3) why would you not expect to pay rrp? If you leave your car with kwik fit, do you get discount on parts? Perhaps after you have used your lbs often and struck up a relationship, you might get 10% discount if you are lucky.
4) gorilla tape? Why do you use this? I hope the shop used this for the above reasons.
5) how long did they take to do the job? Did they do it the same day you brought it in so you could ride the next day?
6) where abouts in the UK are you?
I would have expected to pay £15 a wheel if that included tape, sealant and valves.
Are you trying to save pennies because you just spent your savings fighting for your 'principles' ?
£10 seems pretty cheap for the labour. Also, in your calculations, are you factoring in a margin on the products?
No, you haven’t been overcharged.
Took me an hour to do a tubeless tyre.
If you couldn't get it to go, how long do you think the mechanic would spend? I'd be happy at a £30/h shop rate. So to include bits as well seems like you got a bargain.
I'd agree on the should have phoned you if a cost increased.
Gorilla tape- shudder - grab some of that yellow tesa tape off ebay and a do few wraps of it.
Seems a fairish price as they’ve handed over a tyre that’s staying up.
They’re likely to go for a new valve and tape as farfing abouts going to up the labour cost.
Still they didn’t put any of those fancy milkit valves in or you’d really be crying 🙂
Shop labour rate should be at least £30 an hour to pay the spanner minkies decently and make a profit. I would charge a minimum 1/2 hr. so thats £15 labour for the job at least.
I would have expected to pay £15 a wheel if that included tape, sealant and valves.
That would be so cheap. Cheapest valves in a shop tend to be £10 for a pair of stan’s, so let’s assume £5 for a valve if they’re happy to break a pack.
Sealant - let’s assume 100ml in - and stan’s is about £11 for 568ml if you shop around. Add some margin so say £5 for sealant. Muc Off is more expensive that stan’s too.
Tape - go with their reasoning so say £5 for this. I’m surprised they used gorilla tape - maybe this was because this was what you’d already used and the issues with getting residue off the rim.
So that’s £15 with no labour.
Bearing in mind they had to take the old tyre / tape / valve off, maybe do some cleaning of the rim, then re-tape / inflate / add sealant then it’s got to be 30 mins work. I’d think that’s £20 labour at a lot of bike shops.
So on that basis I don’t think you’ve been over charged.
Maybe where they could have been better is communication. Assume the £10 quoted is just popping the tyre onto the rim for you. But they should have set expectations clearly that there might be more involved - i.e re-taping etc - although it sounds like they did mention this when you dropped the bike in. If it were me I’d have asked for an approximate cost at that point before the work was done.
I think quoting £10 to fit a tubeless tyre which someone has been having trouble seating is madness!
How much do you earn per hour and what does it cost to employ you (NI, pension, building and business overheads, etc)?
got to agree with the labour rate comments. 10 to do any job unless it is just changing a tube is tiny when you have to get stuff together, prep for job (eg. clean off old tape), do job, clean up ready for next. You change the valve without even checking the old one because you know there is a problem somewhere with the build and the fastest way to fix it is to replace it with parts you know from experience is good. Price seems ok. If you didn't already have an airshot that might have been a better way to spend your money.
In short no you haven't been overcharged
However in all cases I ask how much it is at my local labs before they start. That way if it's not to your liking you can walk away. You cant complain after the fact I'm afraid
I think quoting £10 to fit a tubeless tyre which someone has been having trouble seating is madness!
This is the problem. That price is basically stick the shop compressor on your existing setup to get the bead on the rim, plus some sealant. As soon as you have to replace a valve and retape it's way too cheap. I even doubt they will have made much money on the price you ended up paying.
I think it's a fairly normal confusion people have between how much it costs to do something and how much a shop charges to do something, the bit in between the prices is what keeps the shop running.
We charge £20 per wheel Inc rim tape but valves & sealant would be extra £28 is cheap. We would use proper rim tape though not a bodge it and hope adhesive tape from a DIY shop.
Do we really need to do this again? Youve not been overcharged, youve been charged what the shop charges to run a business and provide you a service. Dont like it dont go. My only gripe in your position would be if theyd quoted £10 and charged £30 but im going to assume they told you it was going to need new tape and sealant etc rather than just a blow up.
Add to your equation the costs of rent, rates, taxes, staff costs, admin costs, business costs, dead stock, all that other stuff and youll see why retail is tough and when people whinge about paying for a service its annoying to say the least. The fact that by your calculations you dont feel the lbs should make a profit on the supplies shows a lot, that small stuff needs to be realistically minimum markup double plus vat, if not more.
£10 labour? Assuming thats half an hour work minimum to talk to you, book it in, get the supplies, do the job, talk to you again, put the sale through, take payment etc.... that mechanic assuming theyre on a decent low wage, say £10 an hour, thats costing the business more like £20 an hour by the time you factor in nic, employement costs, breaks, holidays, sick, averaged out maternity pay, so on so forth. Add a reasonable profit? £10 an hour seem fair? £30 an hour charge, add the vat, thats £36 an hour. So by my calcualtions that £18 labour, £10 for the supplies, thats £28 before you add the £10 muc off valve. Wastage should be charged to the customer, who else is going to pay for it?
With three staff in, it costs over £400 a day to open our doors, and thats just based on rent, rates, insurance, gas and electric, and wages. Theres a lot more costs than that under the surface. So on a double plus vat markup which people cry about as profiteering, thats £1000 a day in takings just to break even, making a profit is no easy feat in a shop these days.
Everything I was going to write has been covered. You need to try removing all the old gorilla tape from a rim and then re-evaluate your labour figure. Did the shop ever suggest using a proper tubeless tape?
Jesus wept.
On the plus side, we do have the entire forum in agreement for once...
To be honest the OP highlights that too many people are as tight as they come when it comes to bikes, and this is why LBS struggle and staff are paid peanuts,
£28 sounds fine to me. Shops have overheads and are a business so need to make money. You couldn’t do it yourself so you are also paying for their experience.
If you go to a bar and order a drink and the bottle holds 10 servings, do they charge you 10% of the price of the bottle? Of course they don’t, they are making profit.
At first glance I did think thats a lot !! But looking at it even with your breakdown it's about right. Only thing they did wrong is not offer you the left over tape as they charged for a full roll.
Perfectly reasonable, more than reasonable actually. Even at 30 mins labour that's crazy.
It baffles be that car mechanics can charge £80 an hour but bike mechanics are only allowed to charge £20 lol.
If you'd taken any other job to any other specialists shop and been charged £40 for half an hour's labour you'd think it acceptable
I'd be more concerned that a proper bike shop would use gorilla tape. Unless you insisted on it and even then I'd rather they just declined it. It's one thing botching it at home it's entirely another thing paying for it to be botched. It's the bike equivalent of taking you car to get some body repairs done and having them zip tie it back together.
People moan about the cost of pretty much any service these days. My wife runs an accountancy business and spends probably 50% of her working day arguing with clients about their fees. I ran my own business for a while too (B2B) and experienced much the same thing. People just don't want to pay for experience and decent service these days. The prevailing culture seems to be getting as much as you can for as little cost as possible. I just can't imagine what it must be like to be a bike shop owner these days!
Out of interest, why do people use gorilla tape rather than the many bespoke tubeless tapes available. Is it just a cost thing or is it better/lighter/easier to use?
I've always used stans tape.
I saw this the other day and was a bit surprised
https://www.uberbikecomponents.com/view-product/Uberbike-Race-Matrix-Tubeless-Conversion-Kit-500ml
Incidentally, sealant, valves and gorilla tape are £29.99 which doesnt include labour and isn't as expensive as muckoff sealant
I find clear gorilla tape to be more fit for purpose than the correct tape (which is not tape made specifically for purpose , it's just off the shelf tape that someone picked back in the day)
Clear gorilla tape more resilliant, sticks better , easier to work with and just as easy to remove.
Anyone that uses fiberous gorilla tape on their rims needs strung up with the stuff. Horrible to remove and breaks down with the sealant over time.
I use clear waterproof gorilla tape on the fat bike because it was wide enough rather than several wraps of Stans. Works well.
I bet OP is fun when it comes to bill time in the restaurant.
Gorilla tape is not the right tool for the job
it's the best!
Out of interest, why do people use gorilla tape rather than the many bespoke tubeless tapes available. Is it just a cost thing or is it better/lighter/easier to use?
For me, it's because I've had better results with it than with other tape
OP - I don't know what you do to earn a living, but I suggest you jack it in now and open a bike shop instead. As you've discovered, you can easily undercut all your competitors and you'll soon be on your way to owning your own yacht/Chelsea tractor/lifestyle van.
Out of interest, why do people use gorilla tape rather than the many bespoke tubeless tapes available. Is it just a cost thing or is it better/lighter/easier to use?
I think it’s more from the ghetto days when there wasn’t much tubeless stuff about and your rim may even not have been designed for tubeless, it’s cheap easily bought and works.
You use it for 2 reasons to seal the wheel a bit an pack up the bead and on nightmare rims may need a fair bit for packing.
I’ve always used stans tape.
Which I think is pretty much same as a roll of tesa tape on eBay but you get 66m for 11 quid as opposed to 10m for 13 quid+(YMMV)
So! Who had fried rice?
I know quite a number of people (who tend to work in the same industry - not the same as mine) who are obsessed with getting the cheapest possible deal for everything but massively affronted when anyone questions their costs.
OP - you weren’t able to do something. You took it to someone who could and they charged you for their expertise. Tell us what you do and how much you expect to be paid for doing it and we can give you reasons why we shouldn’t have to pay for it 😉
I think the problem with the OPs version of what he considers fair is the £10 labour charge.
Say £10 labour is fair for 30mins labour, totalling £19 for time and materials...
The shop still has to make a money on top of that and has other overheads to consider, rent, utility bills etc.
When you consider that, £29 total isn't looking so unreasonable any more, no?
I once had a puncture whilst out and about, couldn't get my tyre back on for the life of me, so after a long walk to the nearest bike shop they sorted it out for £10.
Sounds expensive for such a small job but considering I was basically stranded and it included a new inner tube, you can't really complain when you think about it.
The shop still has to make enough money above paying the staff and supplying parts to continue to operate.
Why not just fit a tube? 😂
Did the price include VAT @ 20%?
Why not just fit a tube? 😂
But would he be prepared to pay his LBS £15 to do it?
Sounds fair to me
I'm not in the cycle trade, but I feel sorry for those who are when the average customer does't value their time if/when they need them.
Once you allow for NI and pension costs, seasonality, average utilisation within the seasons, the hours productive/sold and a share of the shop overhead, £9 per hour becomes £25 per hour cost before VAT, or £30 with VAT to break even.
At £11 per hour it's £34.50 inc VAT per hour to break even.
At £9 salary, I can't see how any cycle shop is expected to sell their time for anything less than about £45 per hour, making the shop about £12 per hour after VAT with the above assumptions. Even then, a pretty poor return for the owner given the risk.
That assumes the person is on retail work all of the time, and not bike building and so on.
has he gone off to start his own tubeless tyre fitting service ?????????
Was going to mention VAT , that's another fiver gone.
Price of everything, value of nothing.
The prevailing culture seems to be getting as much as you can for as little cost as possible.
Dead right. And the repercussions are that skilled people just say stuff it and can't make a living.
We all lose.
As has been said. The OP seems to know the cost of everthing and the value of nothing!
“The OP seems to know the cost of everthing and the value of nothing!”
As I said, I don’t have an issue with the labour charge as I was paying for that experience applied through the labour charge.
I was questioning whether I should be charged for the individual items as single items, or whether the lbs could be using bulk buy.
Out of interest, why do people use gorilla tape rather than the many bespoke tubeless tapes available. Is it just a cost thing or is it better/lighter/easier to use?
in the near past before lots of companies started making proper tubeless tape gorilla tape was pretty much the only thing to use. but these days there is a lot of tape available that's specifically designed for the job rather than using tape for a job it's not designed for
I was questioning whether I should be charged for the individual items as single items, or whether the lbs could be using bulk buy.
They bulk buy, where possible, to take advantage of discount splits from suppliers. Sell more, but more, make a slightly better margin.
They then sell you those items individually.
Now, how much do you think Sainsburys pay at source for a packet of light bulbs? Hint - it's a lot less than the price that comes up on the till, and yet I bet you, along with every one else, would never whine about it.
How come bike shops are supposed to different to any other retailer? Let alone want other specialist retailer providing a service alongside products.
I was questioning whether I should be charged for the individual items as single items, or whether the lbs could be using bulk buy.
You were buying individual items. You get the individual item price. What the shop buys them for is nothing to do with you.
I buy a single bottle of pop for £1.09 (or 2 for £2) at the corner shop, knowing they buy in bulk at Costco for £12 for 24 bottles. By your logic I should get in a huff that they’ve charged me more than 50p.
specifically
designedmarketed for the job rather than using tape for a job it’s notdesignedmarketed forFtfy
As I said, I don’t have an issue with the labour charge as I was paying for that experience applied through the labour charge
This was actually where I saw issues in your calculations
Your calculations came out at £19 inc. labour, but they had quoted you £10 to fit the tyre alone. Add the labour cost of removing existing tape and valve, cleaning and fitting new, gets you to your £29 easy
I work part-time as a bike mechanic and we charge £20/wheel for tubeless. Sometimes it's is a right faff, needing to jet wash the wheel to clean it properly, scrub off the tape residue, requiring multiple attempts, sealant all over the floor, removing the pump head from the compressor hose to maximise flow and a couple of pairs of hands to hold the tyre down firmly. Other times it takes just a few minutes with the right tyres and rim combo. More often than not DIY failure is down to poor taping. Also Gorilla or any cloth-backed tape for tubeless is rubbish - it soaks up sealant and comes unglued - you have to scrape-off the residue, clean the rim and apply something like Tesa or Kapton tape.
As someone said above put the money towards an airshot or similar device and tubeless setup will be a doddle. As far as gorilla tape goes I've used it myself without issues but I wouldn't expect a shop to use it without telling me beforehand. If they've removed tape, cleaned rim and fitted new tape, valves and sealant I'd say the cost isn't over the top
gorilla tape, set of an animals..
Just so I understand, the OP agreed with the shop that he would provide a Gorilla taped wheel with valve and they would fit the tire for £10.
When he got the wheel back they had removed the old tape, fitted new tape, and provided another valve without telling him? They then charged him £29.
Regardless of value, that to me says the shop really needs to work on its customer communication.
why the hate for gorila tape?
ive removed other tape to fit it. its more robust and seals first time. Ok youve got to use some ipa to clean your rim but youd be doing that anyway when you retaped?
why the hate for gorila tape?
I don't hate it, but it is not the correct tape to use, it is a do it all tape. Use it yourself by all means but a shop who should be doing things professionally shouldn't use it.
I wouldn't expect to take my bike to a shop to have headset fitted and find them using a hammer and a block of wood yet it works fine (or has done the numerous times I have fitted headsets)
Not in the same trade but if I was fixing someones car for them off the books...no building costs or special equipment needed..i could easily charge them £60-£100 an hour for that work...as I AM FULLY QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED ...fully qualified and experienced personal are EXPENSIVE and so by the time your at part costs..that racks up.. besides who do you call when you cant do it? Eh...a PROFFESIONAL..they cost money ..I resent paying a shop so do most of my work on my bikes so I taught myself but not dabbled in tubeless or wheel building or straightening
.so would pay a PROFFESIONAL to do it for me ..
It costs what it costs ..if that's a big problem ..then buy the kit(I could wager that's expensive then the occasional visit to the shop) and do it yourself
Which would you prefer they used:-
A small new sachet of fresh sealant that will be good for the next six months in your tyre?
Or the dregs of a 5 litre opened bottle that has been on the shelf for the last six months, where half the hole sealing particles are now stuck to the base of the bottle and won't go anywhere near your tyre?
I think I might buy a bunch of clear gorilla tape and change the packaging to "tubeless tape"
There will be a market as it appears people will only use the marketed stuff despite there being better products.
Stan's tape is shite.