Trying to get to 4w/kg

Most of TR’s VO2 sessions used to be closer to ‘classic’ – 4 or 5 min intervals etc. I seem to remember they changed them a couple of years back after seeing some studies showing similar adaptations from the same time at high power but shorter intervals/rests. I can’t remember the details but it was something like the same effect on 5 min power whether you did 5×5 or 5 sets of 10x30s. I think they see much better completion rates with the shorter intervals, and I’ve certainly used them on the path to 4 w/kg in the past.

I do quite like a ‘classic’ VO2 max session every once in a while too though.

I like the TR progression and difficulty ratings in general, just not sure what sort of progression it is indicating for VO2max if they’re a long way from max effort. I did a 5.1 session earlier this week that felt solid enough but only really tickled VO2.

Perhaps it is just necessary to incrementally build time in red zone before you can consistently train VO2. Like anyone can pull on the big pants and crush a one-off VO2 workout, but to do it consistently as part of overall training structure is different gravy.

I wouldn’t fancy 5×5 right now, but have a couple of fast TT courses lined up in May. Would be good to be in condition for hard VO2max training the month before for a short term stimulus.

Isn’t it hip and trendy to do 8min VO2 intervals at ~108% FTP with 2mins+ recovery per interval, starting with 4 sets per session and gradually increasing as weeks go by?

8 min intervals at 108% ftp sounds quite horrible

8 min intervals at 108% ftp sounds quite horrible

I’m not even sure it sounds possible 😀

Literally just finished exactly that. Quite hard. 3×10 is the next progression.

Ref intervals.icu – I just synced my Garmin connect account and that automatically uploads everything instead of Strava. Or you can download rides from strava and upload them manually to intervals if you don’t use Garmin connect. Both for free still.

Seiler’s study showed 4×8 are the best for adaptation. But I’m not sure on the intensity as I think it was as a vo2 percentage rather than an FTP based one.

I don’t honestly think it matters- just pick a duration between 30s and 8 minutes and accumulate as much time there as you can in a session.
All of it depends on how accurate your ftp is, what your ftp is that day, what you training load that week is, blah blah blah.

What is key is to have progressive overload. Once you can do your session of choice, do something harder each week.

So I’ve made a start with 5×3 @ what I’m guessing is about 110-115% but next week I’ll shoot for the higher power and switch to 4×4. Then the following week aim for 5×4. After recovery week I’ll then reassess and do something different to get a different stimulus.

Adam Hansen used to describe mixing them up in the same session even. So 5x five minute intervals but some steady state, some as 30/30’s and some as 40/20’s.

I’m not even sure it sounds possible

just imagine it’s the first 8 minutes of ANY Zwift race 😂

just imagine it’s the first 8 minutes of ANY Zwift race

It’s not the first 8 that would kill me… Well, not quite.

Trying to keep near the lead group in the quartet of Zwift Insider Tiny Races on Saturdays (ran at 0900, 1500 and 2100 GMT) would be a rough approximation of 4x8mins at ~108% most weeks, usually with more like 3-5mins recovery between races.

At ~254W FTP, 105-108% would mean 8min efforts of 267-274W, pretty close to what I did two weekends ago over ~33mins of racing while getting smashed by far stronger C riders.

Certainly shouldn’t be a walk in the park to do as an ERG workout, but should be achievable if your FTP is in the right ballpark, your legs aren’t dead from a z4+ workout/race in the last few days and you aren’t coming down with or recovering from a lurgy etc.

The other thing to consider with vo2 max intervals is that the adaptations are quick to appear. It only really takes 8 weeks to build and maybe some marginal gains out to 12 weeks.
That’s where you need to consider the cost of maintaining it.

I’ve probably done the least amount of winter zwift racing ever so I’m very much starting from scratch with it 😭 🤣

Tonight was the opposite of vo2 for me. I finished sweaty – but heart rate didn’t feel particularly high and I didn’t really even notice I was exercising as I was watching the iPad. If I’d had more time I could have done another 30-60 mins quite happily I think – but I think my wife might have disowned me.

Well done Joe 👍🏻 Great session’s those. Stash some Z2 gainz in the bank with no stress 😃

My wife threatened to disown me for *not* doing my session and hogging the remote instead 🤣

I like the TR progression and difficulty ratings in general, just not sure what sort of progression it is indicating for VO2max if they’re a long way from max effort. I did a 5.1 session earlier this week that felt solid enough but only really tickled VO2.

I’m sure I remember hearing on the TR podcast that it’s not uncommon for people to have to nudge the power up or down on VO2 to get the best results. I guess using %FTP to set the power for these intervals is less than ideal. It sounds like you’ve got some scope to go a bit harder in those sessions – I guess you have to be careful to listen to your body a bit and try not to do yourself in though!

Seiler’s study showed 4×8 are the best for adaptation. But I’m not sure on the intensity as I think it was as a vo2 percentage rather than an FTP based one.

this one?

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/55b7ffebe4b0568a75e3316b/t/5abd92670e2e72e1b42a9ec4/1522373252709/adaptations-to-aerobic-interval-training_interactive-effects-of-exercise-intensity-and-total-work-duration.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2UHTqMpTPMMPjxMrPgwctPPanBiVBjcI_wRX7WAJif61YhRlsurZq38gA

Yep that’s it 👍🏻

So skimming back through, it’s kind of more of a “Sweetspot” v “Threshold” V “Vo2 max” study.

I guess it’s expected that the 4×8’s around threshold give the best bump in threshold but maybe what’s surprising is that it’s better for vo2 max power than 4×4’s.

I managed to sprint at 10.5wkg to beat the others over the line” – i can’t even imagine figures of 10.5w/kg!

Me neither that’s about 150w more than my max power on the turbo!

Interesting group ride today. First there was a crash. And (no joke) it was the Triathlete! Luckily he was fine with just some road rash and a bruised thumb and his old S-Works was good to carry on too! He made it round the rest of the 65 miles as strong as ever! Fair play but it shook me up a bit as it was only luck (and spidey sense maybe?) that I had left a huge gap behind him into the wet, muddy, off-camber bend.

From my perspective it was tough. Adding intensity to my week on both Tuesday and Thursday meant this was pushing the limit of what I know I can cope with. And of course, the dent on my mojo meant I didn’t manage to maintain the volume I’ve been doing.

What I’m trying to accomplish now though is to learn to ride at other people’s pace again. It’s all very well going out and doing long, solo tempo rides that I’m proud of, or highly structured interval sets where I can see the intensity coming, and know exactly where it’s going to end.

What today was about was throwing myself into the blender! The weather, the route, the road surface and of course the relative strengths of my ride buddies all meant that I couldn’t always ease off when *I* wanted to (or I’d get dropped). I still did get dropped. A lot. There’s no way around it at my weight but by the end of the next descent I could usually get back on again, or some helpful traffic lights would come to my aid.

I did have a goal power in mind. I looked at my power from a recent group ride I was pleased with- and my 3hr power was 236w and 264np so all I wanted to do was beat one of those. Preferably the latter. As it was, today came in at 231w and 273np but for 15 minutes longer so not a bad guess, especially as it was on a different power meter too.

There were a few times when my AP for the ride was dropping into the 220’s so I’d hit the front and crank things up. Then the others would pop out of my draft, blitz the next climb and I’d be left dangling off the back. Then when they were coasting, I’d have to carry on down the other side in the 300’s to close the gap again and pretty soon my little turn on the front had escalated into ten minutes at threshold 🤣

The finale was the A4. And the tailwind meant I got a nice PB. 8 miles at 28mph is pretty fun. It finishes with the ski slope (a 20s climb) and I managed to hold second wheel up there and then get a gap on the flat at the top with another guy. The traffic into town was way too busy for many games but I got such a good gap over the last flyover, that with clear roads I could have ‘won’ for sure. Which is a nonsense of course as had it been a road race, I’d have been dropped numerous times and been unable to be present to even contest the finale but did give a little glimmer of hope about my legs.

It’s stupid to read too much into any one session- training is about consistency and a good body of work. Today was exactly that. Another solid entry in the diary with nothing remarkable to celebrate but a step in the right direction towards Tour of Cambridgeshire nonetheless.

Some of the group road rides / Zwift rides people are doing seem quite hardcore with people attacking and pushing the pace on. I w only been on one group ride before with the local triathlon club and was a bit disappointed that the fast group weren’t actually very fast. I ended up helping a couple of the ladies get back to the group a few times when they dropped off the back.

I’m mostly mtb-ing so either solo or with other people – with the latter it often breaks up on the climb and everyone gathers at the top again.

Rode solo just round easy xc-ish trail centre stuff at Ashton Court / Leigh Woods. Took the hardtail out for a spin – I’ve been riding the sentinel a lot the last few months and the Marino has been a bit neglected. After the first 10 mins thinking it’s very bumpy I really got into it – the 2.6” tyres do smooth stuff out quite well and it was really good on the trails that have been built like a pump track pretty much.

Fitness wise, considering it was the 3rd day on the bounce pedalling I felt pretty good still – maybe I should be training a bit harder!

On your triathlete comment I think there is a bit of a lack of skill in the cycling front with a lot of them – it’s cliche but it is true to some extent.

To be fair it was a bad corner 🤣 But once we knew he was okay we were able to rib him about it.

We had a couple of puncture stops and the crash so the pace was not mega fast (not when my Strava crush Harold Evans did 27mph this morning 😱 🤣) at 19.4mph but there were some fun moments.

Well done on your ride! I definitely notice it when I *don’t* have recent miles in the legs these days. I ride worse if I’m too fresh.

Got to rip it out of someone once you know they aren’t very broken 🤣

I’ve no idea if 19.4mph is that fast – but it’s definitely faster than the tri rides – most people seem to be aiming at 16-18mph average. But then I’d get my ass kicked by the lot of them running or swimming so I can’t say too much

2nd week of dirt destroyer (almost) done and it’s feeling a bit too comfortable, if I’m being honest… None of the workouts have had me wishing for death over completing another interval, yet. 🤣

Hopefully that’ll result in a decent uplift at the end of the 6 weeks, I’m tempted to get a race in as I’m currently able to enter cat C, my 74.6kg and 247w puts me at 3.31w/kg which is bottom end cat B but I’ve not done any efforts in the last few weeks that has put me up at that level.

Enjoying reading this thread. I’m a similar weight to you Joe and while 4w/kg is unachievable for me given work and family commitments I’m making progress and up to 3.4w/kg. Had some good sessions on trainerroad this week and hope to get 2/3 hours zone 2 tomorrow outdoors.

Enjoying reading this thread. I’m a similar weight to you Joe and while 4w/kg is unachievable for me given work and family commitments I’m making progress and up to 3.4w/kg. Had some good sessions on trainerroad this week and hope to get 2/3 hours zone 2 tomorrow outdoors.

What’s your body type? It’s definitely easier if you’re an, ahem… ‘Skinny get’ like me, with little to no excess weight up top 🤣 I was 13w away from 4w/kg not that long ago, I’m 30w and 1.5kg off those figures as I speak but with some consistent training I reckon I’ll be able to get to 4w/kg. Weight wise I’ll need to be down to 73kg again, then get to 290w. Doing that on 4-6hrs a week training (with a real ride or 2 as well) should be doable for me. It’s definitely harder if you’re carrying any weight in your upper body, be that muscle or fat.

Yeah I’m going to struggle on the upper body bit – I’m 5’9 / 76.3kgs as of today / 40
or maybe even 42” chest / 32-34” waist in most clothes. I’m at 255ftp – so 3.34w/kg at the moment.

Still got some fat to shift off my stomach and rear end I reckon before I run out of fat to lose. Doubt I’ll get it all off because cake.

Unfortunately I’m pretty lean above the waist! Bigger arse and legs although I don’t think I’ve much weight to lose. 43 now and while I’m not putting any on I think it’s getting harder to shift with age 😫

From my perspective it was tough.

Should have come MTBing with me, it was a nice easy ride!!

still plugging away in Z2 here, managed 6hrs this week if I don’t get anything in tomorrow, nights to nights and then picking the kids up, so will be an hour tops if I do, which isn’t bad considering Wednesday onwards last week during rest week I felt shocking, so 2x 2hr sessions and 2x 1hr sessions isn’t a bad week, still got the odd cough, so done nothing above z2 since 9/3 which isn’t ideal but I know not to much it

on a weight front, i’m down from 88kg (I’m sure it was on 26/1, although I have 83.6kg logged on 7/2) to 78.5kg this afternoon when I woke up for work, either way, a decent downward trend, and I don’t think I’ve stepped on the scales in 15 years and the number start with a 7

Should have come MTBing with me, it was a nice easy ride!!

Sadly I need a bit of toughness now to try and get fit 🤣
Was toying with joining you for your original loop before the weather turned everything to mush I must admit. (I came off of Facebook so can see the page but can’t comment or like posts).

@dirtyrider

That’s a very decent amount of weight off – that must make a huge difference in the bike. I found just dropping from 84kgs to 77-78 ish was a game changer

that must make a huge difference in the bike

hope so, only been outdoors once this year, just snowed under with kids and uni and still working, however, in terms of time and volume, in 2021 I did 99hrs and 2022 I did 80hrs, in 2023 I’m on as of today I’m on 71hrs (with only 1hr 13m coasting apparently), and watts wise, in 2021 I did 293w for 20 mins and 2022 I did 265w for 20, which I’ve matched already with 266w,

so with another couple of kg off maybe, a bit of strength training, which I need to get my arse in gear and do and a bump in fitness when I add some more intensity, we might crack 4w/kg

Well done @dirtyrider that’s great progress 👏🏻

I was fairly trashed after Saturday. I did an hour easy on Zwift on Sunday and at 20mins I wanted to get off. By 40 mins I was feeling better and by the hour, I wanted to carry on. But I knew it wasn’t the right thing to do. Then yesterday was a recovery day and today I get to see if my body has adapted to last week’s Threshold session or not.
These top end gains start expressing within days apparently, so we shall see! It may have to be on Zwift looking at the weather, but that’s fine as it will make holding consistent power easier.

It’s interesting looking at the other guys from Saturday’s ride on my Strava feed since then. Everyone was fairly equally smashed by the end it seemed and yet some have done some impressive high intensity in the meantime.
I’ll be curious to see how they fair next weekend, as I definitely needed the easy time to absorb Saturday’s training stress, so my guess is that I’ll improve relative to them but let’s see!

Some people seem to be able to main high intensity for longer / more frequently it seems. Unless it’s ok for a bit, then they break down but you just don’t see it?

I know with 1 mtb and 2 turbos a week that I’m making progress – with an ad hoc easy endurance turbo thrown in where possible. This week is going to be different I think as I’m mid bike build so haven’t turbo’d yesterday or today and got an evening mtb tomorrow with a mate who is slower / less fit. Going to have to hit up turbo thurs / fri in a row I think.

Been plodding along at 3.7 indoors most of the winter, TTE of 45 minutes

Had a week away and managed an 18 minute effort at 4.5, best 20 from the same ride gave me 4.1 which included a stop of 1:30 at the bottom of the climb.

mFTP outdoors is now 3.9 (35 minute TTE) so hoping a solid 20 minute effort could get me over the line.

And Tuesday World Champs start tonight!

Yeah, I don’t think there’s evidence of more than 3 sessions of HIIT a week being better Joe (other than maybe as part of a block training program) but it just comes back to the old thing of ‘easy days easy, hard days hard’ to avoid everything becoming a bit meh. I want to make sure I go into Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday ready to really hurt myself for the next two weeks.

Oooo nice one @Haze Let us know how it goes 😀
There’s no sign of life on our Tuesday night WhatsApp yet. We have been out as early as 04th April in years gone by but I could almost do with a few more weeks of structured training first. I find it’s quite tricky to actually get good ‘time in zone’ on the chaingang because if I go too hard or too long on the front, I’m liable to nearly ‘drop myself’ by not then being able to catch back on the end of the train. I know that’s probably the best bit of training on the whole ride (like an over/under) but I always end up leaving a bit in reserve to fend off hero pulls 🤣

Then West Thames starts at Hillingdon on the 14th so I may venture up and check my form (and I always find a good kicking good for the training motivation 🤣 ).

First few weeks will be the short route due to light, it gives us a chance to dust off the cobwebs and get the line working nicely.

In past years I’d only schedule one more intensity session per week, either in the form of a race or ‘spritied’ Sunday cafe ride ending up in a smash.

No racing for me this year so I’ll probably revert to a structured session on Saturday and pad the rest of the week out with Z2, except the last half hour or so on a Sunday of course 😀

Agree with others that lots of HIIT sessions in a week is likely to do more harm than good. I know I’ve dug myself a hole by doing a TR low volume plan then adding on pacelines and fast club runs.

Currently on the ‘experimental’ polarised build plan from TR. I’m finding the endurance riding pretty challenging – in the past I’ve treated these as easy rides but they’re definitely pushing into the tempo territory. I still prefer the HIIT sessions but it’s nice to change things up a bit this year and will be interesting to see where it takes me.

Moved to a new area this year and there’s some great ~4min hills right on my doorstep but I think I might need to explore a bit to find some longer stuff for later in the season.

Well that was good. I could tell I was freshening up as I felt all motivated all of a sudden!

It almost seems like I know what I’m on about too- either that or it’s a placebo effect. So last week, the 4×10’s went awfully bad. The average across 40mins was just 305w. But I also knew it was a shock to the system having not done any for years. Or much intensity this year. Every podcast I listened to or article I read, told me this stuff would start to get better in days- if you recover properly. (And I noticed Ed Laverack was proving it himself with some rapid jumps in Threshold fitness in a couple of short weeks).

Today had the advantage of ERG mode to help me out but the average across this weeks 4×10’s was far closer to my suspected FTP of 330-340 at 334 watts! Dead chuffed with that. Now I can progress the duration and try 3×15 next week.

Reference my Saturday ride companions: one tried to do a TR Vo2 workout today (having done 3h30 yesterday and 90mins on Sunday!) and got 30mins in and bailed. Now, I’m not one to say I told you so but it did give me some motivation to post a good crisp set of successful intervals that’s for sure 😉

Lol – if they’d done that intensity then tried to do a hard vo2 then sounds a bit much.

Good work on your 4×10 – sounds like you’re making progress!

In the end I’ve finished my new frame build enough that it’s bolted onto the turbo good to go – so got an hour TR vo2 ride I’m going to do shortly. Then mtb tomorrow and a sweet spot Friday. No proper weekend ride as going to watch football and the wife would be angry if I then tried to do mtb on the weekend too. May fit in another TR endurance ride Sunday if I can instead.

Need to bleed my brakes and try to get out on the road next few weeks as I’ll have new bike excitement. Don’t know what it weighs but feels light to pickup – hopefully around 8kgs.

Ah wicked, that will be ace. Nothing like NBD watts 💪🏻 😎