Trying to get to 4w/kg

That’s quick – is it flat? I once had a commute of similar length, and my record was the same 33kph.  That was absolutely pancake flat except for a small hill at the end. To get that time I had to catch every light and junction and be sustaining around 42kph o the flat!

Not flat, but not overly hilly.  There’s about 300m of climbing in the 27km, so 1:100.  There’s also 18 sets of lights/roundabouts.

My fastest time is 35.8kph over the same route, but that requires (very) early mornings and light jumping.

That’s an amazing time in that case.

@nickc

If I wanted to start to measure watts, what’s (ho ho) the cheapest entry point? Going on a mountain bike.

It’s unlikely to be cheap as you already suspect. On my road bike I’ve gone with assiomo Uno pedals – but I don’t think they make an off road set.

Garmin I believe do a power meter pedal with an xc style spd mechanism – but it costs quite a lot.

Other cheapest option – maybe 4iii or stages make a left side crank that would work with your existing right hand side?  I probably would have gone this route but even with the thinnest 4iii new style power meter I didn’t have enough clearance to the chainstays (gravel bike frame).

I have an XT 4iiii crank on my mtb.

This is cheap if you need 170mm

https://www.cyclepowermeters.com/4iiii-precision-powermeter-shimano-xtr-m9000.html?utm_source=google_shopping&m=configurable&140=4&aid=2118&gclid=CjwKCAjw44mlBhAQEiwAqP3eVhItzl7ZuK0WPm8CLItjyHL9pXku3dfHphgJGdhZXSUJa_AnBBk_JRoCdvoQAvD_BwE

Otherwise it’s about £370 I think.

Thanks guys @joebristol, you suspect correctly! I’ve SRAM cranks, so no Stages NDS available, is that right? so I’d need set of cranks, new BB, and stages NDS so about £300-380 for the power meter, £150 or so for the cranks (and a redundant NDS) and some bearings £20 or so…

Or Garmin pedals at about £480-500 or so.

Wow That seems pretty bloody expensive..!

I’m not sure how much value there is having power on an MTB, unless it’s your only bike.  And if it is, you’re probably better off spending the cash on a road bike.

Power is most useful regulating long constant power efforts which are nearly impossible when MTBing.

If I wanted to start to measure watts, what’s (ho ho) the cheapest entry point? Going on a mountain bike.

Do you want real time and/or accurate?

Cos if you can tolerate looking at numbers after the fact, and basing it all on algorithmic estimates then just capturing HR/Cadence/Speed data via cheaper sensors and uploading to Strava and then punting it out to Veloviewer (or similar) to pour over is probably enough for most people, Various interweb experts claim it’s “within 5-10%” of Power meter captured power, not totally sure where that is plucked from of course…

Obviously you need to keep other information up to date like your weight and check things like elevation are captured correctly (as with any data; crap in = crap out), but you can at least review that estimated power after a ride, maybe look at the bits where you know you were putting in a substantial effort and be equally disappointed without having to pay ~£400+ to discover you are a weakling…

I’m sure I’ve also seen some IQ apps that claim to do the whole power estimation thing as a field on the fly so you get a number to start at, but I really don’t buy it being anything like correct.

Various interweb experts claim it’s “within 5-10%” of Power meter captured power, not totally sure where that is plucked from of course…

That’s terrible accuracy. When doing z2 rides by power a 2W increase Vs HR over a regular ride was a great improvement. Over the course of a couple of seasons I went from about 205W to 230W. So two years of training could be obscured by a 10% error!

Off road it’s even worse because estimates know nothing of train conditions. Oh, you’ve lost 15% of your FTP you’re de-training! No, actually it rained a lot last night.

Yeah, you’re better off using RPE and HR to train than that.

In fact, I’d say 75% of how I use my PM is after the ride rather than during these days.
The main one being kj of course.

Recovery rides are HR based, endurance rides are calibrated against the ‘talk test’, tempo is probably more power based as HR will vary a lot across the effort and Threshold is a bit of both.

Thanks @Molgrips I was going to ask why power meters weren’t useful off road…your last post seems to cover it. I don’t own a road bike, and TBH I was just looking to see if there was  a better  “training” method than doing by HR, but I’m just doing it for interest rather than need for an event, so having looked at power meter prices…I’m not interested any more!

Thanks; especially @cookeaa, lots of useful info in your post.

if you can fit one onto your bike, a rival axs chainset with power meter built in is £250, bodge a front mech on to keep it in the 33t ring and bobs your uncle 🙂

@NickC If you can get an old copy of Friels MTB training Bible, it’s basically his other book re-written for folks who definitely don’t have a PM.
In fact, I think some of the tables and explanations in there are better than in his regular Training Bible.
(Loads dirt cheap online)

I think the most important aspect for Mtb’ers is incorporating some kind of steady state work to get that endurance going. It doesn’t need to be roads though- Rich and I rode endurance on the ridgeway on our mtb’s the other week.

endurance rides are calibrated against the ‘talk test’,

Well, that in turn is based on power, as long as you have had a lactate test.

I think the most important aspect for Mtb’ers is incorporating some kind of steady state work to get that endurance going

Yes, get yourself a big Enduro sled and fit the biggest tackiest tyres you can, then come to a South Wales unofficial bike park. You will spend hours winching your way up fire road!

Seriously though MTB is really really bad for base training. The bike park idea is as good as it gets.

so because all the training gurus are likely on here.. a question..

I’m early 40s and have a max heartrate of 185bpm (I’ve really pushed as hard as I can a whole bunch of times, and can’t get it any higher). This roughly corrolates with my age.

however, I can hold highish heartrates for quite a long time – eg I can do 40 mins at around 175bpm and 4 hours at an average of 162bpm (both big efforts, both measured on a chest strap)

if I wanted to get into training, where should my zones be? the percentage of hr thing doesn’t appear to work for me unless my max is well over 200 and i’m just not good at getting there 🙂

Percentage of max HR is pretty inaccurate as you’ve discovered.

You want to know your threshold heart rate which you can find with a big long steady climb that takes 20 mins or so. Then work from that.

Yeah, I calibrate it (talk test) against a PM as it’s easier to follow a number (especially indoors) but I could just concentrate on following it by RPE.

That’s kind of the point re. switching to training rather than just riding isn’t it- you are going to need to adapt the riding you do at least a couple of times a week.
But as I say- it can be fireroads or byways. It doesn’t have to be tarmac.

Also what following Friels book will illustrate is perhaps as if not more important than the zones you’re riding in- the weekly, monthly and quarterly ebb and flow of overload and recovery.

You want to know your threshold heart rate which you can find with a big long steady climb that takes 20 mins or so. Then work from that.

any reasons it has to be a hill rather than just as quick as I can go along the flat? the longest hill near me is ditchling beacon, and I can get up that in 5 mins (not at threshold heart rate, for sure) – I’m not aware of anything that gets above 200m of elevation gain this side of london 🙂

Nope. Any hard consistent effort will do. Friel recommends the average HR from the last 20 mins of a 30min effort. Maybe look for a local ten mile TT route?

ta, I’ve got one of them from last week (although not really a TT route – and it was on my watch, hence why there’s a jump from the first half to the second half I think)

https://www.strava.com/activities/9349762685/analysis/257/835

surely a 175 threshold is way too high if my max is 185 though?

Not necessarily. You may be surprised how much higher your HR could go in the right circumstances. Max is fairly irrelevant for training zones anyhow.

My threshold is about 176bpm and my max about +20 but I’ve rarely been there this year.

Rotor are doing some very keen prices direct at their EU store.

Amazing high quality cranks made in Spain. I’ve had a one arm crank system for must be 7 years and still going well on my MTB.

Just got 2 in power (2 sided) for practically half price.

https://www.rotorstore.eu/product/rotor-2inpower-direct-mount-mtb-crankset/

You will pay duty but still good.

(This is MTB)

https://intervals.icu/ uses 98% of your best 20mins heart rate to estimate Lactate Threshold Heart Rate. It notifies you of improvements, but leaves it to you to change metric in settings, as heart rate can be affected by a number of non-performance factors.

any reasons it has to be a hill rather than just as quick as I can go along the flat?

Theoretically no, but somehow in real life I find they are pretty different activities.  I’ve no idea why, probably psychological but also something to do with your pedal stroke which I think is different. But yes if you have no hill then try and choose a proper flat road.  Undulations mess with constant power efforts. If you’ve never ridden with power, it is astonishing how much your power goes up on the slightest rise and disappears on a descent even if you are trying to keep it even. Sticking to say, 220W for me requires absolutely dawdling up hills and smashing the living daylights out of descents.  Whilst producing the exact same power.  It’s very strange.

surely a 175 threshold is way too high if my max is 185 though?

No, that’s about where I am these days. Max HR is governed by different things than threshold HR.

I think the most important aspect for Mtb’ers is incorporating some kind of steady state work to get that endurance going. It doesn’t need to be roads though- Rich and I rode endurance on the ridgeway on our mtb’s the other week.

Ah cool, I’ve started doing a longer commute which is 18 miles each way off road – more or less completely flat, it’s mostly an old railway line and keeping it in Z2 as much as I can, I do this twice a week, so I get 6 hours or so of pretty steady state riding.

Sounds ace 👍🏻 😀

That’s terrible accuracy.

Well yeah, but it’s ~£450 cheaper and lots of us are just nodders wanting to dabble in and gain a more general understanding of our cycling power.

Ultimately PMs are still expensive, temperamental tools for “Serious” (i.e. racing at the sharper end) cyclists not jolly punters who are at best merely curious…

Well yeah, but it’s ~£450 cheaper and lots of us are just nodders wanting to dabble in and gain a more general understanding of our cycling power.

Sure, but I don’t think that’s accurate enough to be of any use. You may as well train with HR.

If you have a turbo with accurate power (and you actually like using it for training), then a power meter isn’t that important for most people imho. Definitely not if your focus is MTB. The two pillars of ftp-raising training regimes, Z2 and VO2max, do not require any power-monitoring outside, and you get yourself calibrated in general terms on the trainer.

Rpe is a very effective way to train IF you’re experienced with the quantitative approach. Some very strong riders will ‘just train by feel bro’ but you need to have been through the numbers for that to work.

Sure, but I don’t think that’s accurate enough to be of any use. You may as well train with HR.

Kind of my point, accuracy isn’t such a concern if you’re only looking to chart upward or downward trends whilst, as you said, using HR as your main training tool.

Having said that I did find myself having a wee browse of 4iii LH arms earlier, I’d say those border on “affordable” at around the £250-300 mark.

had time for an hour today, knew I’d still be carrying some fatigue from Sunday, but it my only option to get out before Friday,  thought about sitting on the turbo and watching the tour, but blasted round for an hour, and despite having to fish a wasp out my helmet as I was riding and a stung forehead, I put 2:02m  into my quickest time round a 34.5km loop from 2021 (@38.4kph) and +12w for an average of 277w for 53:37 and that’s at 11bpm average less, 172 v 183bpm,

so still very slightly incrementally increasing across the board, which is nice

Nice work!

I’m getting things back in track again now as I work out of my back spasm. Still have a morning stretching routine which I think may need to be permanent now.

Had a hardtail session locally on the weekend – no structure – just sprinted round like my hair was on fire in bursts on the fun bits – then churning out the slight gradients. All fairly flat around Ashton Clurt and Leigh Woods. Did pop down a few bits of steeper off piste and the climb back up but not a lot of climbing. Felt good though.

Z2 turbo on Tuesday night for an hour just to keep things moving.

Commuted yesterday on the road bike – still in the novelty stage with the power meter. Current on real-time power – am I better smoothing readouts slightly with 3 or 10 second power to make it more useful to try and hold a level of power?

Did quite a bit further than I needed – instead of taking the direct route I went a roundabout way both ways on the Bristol-bath cycle track. Just need to get the backpack off my back – think I’m going to pick up an Ortlieb quick rack next payday and look for a waterproof pannier – laptop is heavy on my lower back. Sod the aero – the huge backpack ruins it anyway.

Just smashing out some weights before work – feels good to be back on it. Lost some strength but feels like it’s going to come back fairly quickly.

3x 10 dumbell cheat press 22.5kg dumbbells

3×10 Dumbell chest flyes 10kg dumbbells

3×10 dumbell pullovers 20kg dumbell

3×10 dumbell overhead tricep extensions 20kg dumbell

3×10 bench dips

Personally, I use 3sec practically all the time.

3 second here as well,

Cool, will switch my garmin to 3 second power.

Commuting once a week on my bike now – means Garmin is having a guess at ftp based on my commute, as is Intervals ICU + garmin is attempting riding dynamics information. I’m not convinced it really knows when I’m stood up or sat down – doesn’t seem right that info.

Garmin thinks my ftp is 217w, intervals thinks 227w based on my commute this evening and TrainerRoad is guessing 242w I think. I feel reasonably fit considering the time off I had – and Strava is saying my fitness is in the way back up again.

Going to start a new turbo block soon – although might only manage 1-2 sessions a week as I’m mtbing and bike commuting at the moment. Will ramp test at the start for context on where I am vs where I have been.

Im enjoying beasting myself on the road bike at the moment, apart from my Hope RX4 being an arsehole on the back and leaking out the pistons (I think). Hoping new seals will fix it – otherwise it’s going on eBay and a shiny new Ultegra caliper is going to find its way on there.

jumped on Zwift the other night for an hour Z2, my sub had lapsed somehow, so I did 1hr up Ventoux and still have 12.5km left, don’t think anything else is as climby is there?

rinsed myself outdoors today, for an hour and twenty ish, 51km loop, with 3 punchy climbs (4 min, 90 seconds and 5 mins) in quick succession in the middle before it loops for home, did 299 for 26 minutes during (intervals guessing at 290w FTP) and 274w for the 1hr 23m, nicked the KOM by 2 seconds, but knocked 3m 19s of my previous best from 2020

last week was a shorter week, at 4 1/2 hours in 2 rides, just don’t have the time, and I’m deffo knocking on the door of where I can get to with the hours available I reckon, but hovering around 300w, for 20 minutes (at 42) isn’t a bad place to be

Eight climbs of various length/gradient throught the new Zwift portal feature, includes Tourmalet and a few others already done by this year’s TDF.

how far is it to the portal though?

After a weird likely fatigued and possibly long Covid / post viral fatigued year and after some rest, I did a flat Zwift race yesterday with the intention of holding onto the pack for 20 mins to simulate a 20min ftp test.

I made it to 15 mins then excruciatingly backed off, and whilst appreciating its not true test format, I recorded a 20min ftp of 234w or 3.0 wkg.  To think, before March I posted an FTP of 3.8wkg.

🙁

I start proper training again on Sunday, and with some low volume but sharp efforts on weekdays with some endurance volume over the weekends I perform a proper FTP test in 2 weeks in order to inform a plan ending at the Gorrick Halloween event.  Hopefully it improves slightly!

@kryton57 – hopefully it’ll come back quickly!