Titanium frame needed; custom or off the peg?

I don’t have an ‘attitude’, other than knowing what I want.

So you’ve never made a Titanium frame? Ok. I’ll get advice from people who actually have, thanks.

You may think you don’t have an attitude, but that’s certainly how you come across in your posts.

It’s a very neat and tidy looking set up though. Another thing I need to consider, is whether to use post mount or ISO disc mounts. Most calipers seem to be of the former these days, so maybe better to use them, as I’d rather not be faffing with adapters and stuff. Any thoughts on this?

Post mount got to be the way, and if you want 140mm or 160mm or 180mm etc make sure that it’s designed for the rotor size you want. For example, I like how the Magura Thor forks I had were design to run 180mm rotors from the start.

Unlike my longer travel 36’s and Pikes that a designed for 160mm rotors, and need an adaptor for anything bigger – and most people run bigger than 160mm rotors on the front on bikes that take 140-160mm forks.

People could offer thoughts and experiences rather than being deliberately antagonistic. I’d be interested in looking at cable/hose routing options, types of braze on for mudguards, bottle cages etc. I think a bottle opener is essential:

“Post mount got to be the way, and if you want 140mm or 160mm or 180mm etc make sure that it’s designed for the rotor size you want.”

Probably 160mm maximum really. Won’t need as much braking power as something like an enduro style MTB for example. Maybe even 140mm on the rear, as I’m not that heavy. Point about post mount noted.

People could offer thoughts and experiences rather than being deliberately antagonistic

I’m sure people would be very willing to, if you would drop the attitude.

Is this some sort of elaborate troll?

New member, only thread they’ve posted in.

Ignores all ‘thoughts and experience’ from people with years of industry knowledge doing exactly what they want (solving problems in frame design).

I think it’s a precursor to a frame building joint venture, as alluded to previously…

The Shand droupouts look very flexible, and although it might be expensive doing it all in Ti, there isn’t any reason why the black part shouldn’t be aluminium to reduce the cost. Also easy to incorporate a split in the rear triangle should you want to try a belt-drive in the future.

Post mount is so much simpler for centring callipers without the need for shims. I’d also say that they’re possibly a bit more forgiving in the way the braking forces are transferred to the frame.

Adding V-brake mounts seems a little counter-intuitive to me if starting with a blank canvas and designing in disc mounts. They look very ugly if not used, far more so than not using a calliper brake mount for example.

Cheers, Rich

Ah – this is free consultancy then? 😆
What’s that phrase about a camel being a horse designed by a committee?

I only sort the cable runs on my steel frames once I have a complete frame and dummy parts build to experiment with. Otherwise you need a lot of frame design experience or a very complete / detailed 3D CAD model to get it perfect first time.

For continuous runs of outer cable, I currently use little lengths of brass tube (so it doesn’t rust) silver soldered to the frame at specific locations. I guess you could do something similar in (welded) Ti.

I’d say the most skilled frame designers are ones that can successfully prototype, doing it all remotely via email and drawings alone – there are so many minor issues / cock-ups. And so many possible combinations of components and frame sizes. Even things like UK brakes being on opposite sides can affect hose runs if you are trying to mass produce.

I seem to remember the Spanner site had a fair few people that seemed to be doing MK2 versions of their first frames with all the tweaks they didn’t get right first time.

Good luck. Plenty of built in rack ideas on the Tout Terrain site.

shands variation looks good but needs a tensioner or EBB to go rohloff.

that troll looks awful.

Im a fan of the whole lot sliding together through a sliding drop out as the wheel can be removed and put back in the correct place without readjusting your dropouts/wheels/brake etc IF running a rohloff is a posibility for you…

Or what about the salsa swing drop out – that does similar but even neater imo although with less adjustment.

“it might be expensive doing it all in Ti, there isn’t any reason why the black part shouldn’t be aluminium to reduce the cost”

Good point. Definitely something to consider. Of course, certain dropout designs may be patented, so other builders may be prevented from legally using/copying the same design.

“Adding V-brake mounts seems a little counter-intuitive to me if starting with a blank canvas and designing in disc mounts. They look very ugly if not used, far more so than not using a calliper brake mount for example.”

Yeah, it’s a conundrum. But as I’ve said, I have some very nice V-brake options, as well as a lovely set of Hope/Mavic wheels which I’d like to continue using. A disc brake mount won’t look too obtrusive or ugly if I’m using v-brakes, and gives an option for the future.

And quite frankly, if you’d turn down £2-3000 worth of business just because the customer’s a bit fussy or annoying, you’re an idiot.

That all depends how much wasted time and effort the builder has to put into it and the likelihood that you are bound to be unhappy about something to do with the frame/experience and post about it all over the internet.
And the £2-3K of business may only make the builder a few hundred in profit in which case they could in fact be very clever in turning down your request.

Especially as they’ll likely already have a waiting list, Still, that’s the advantage of going to someone with no/little experience – they won’t argue with you, will have no waiting list and will happily take your £2-3k for the privilege.

Just caught up with this thread. Please, please keep us updated with the project, this thread has all the hallmarks of turning into a STW classic.

I’m not a frame designer, but I will give you a bit of free advice. You keep asserting that you know what you want and get all grumpytrousers with anyone who dares disagree with you. That’s fine – as you say, it’s your money and your bike. But as evidenced by this thread, you don’t really know what you want. You’re set on a course which will ultimately get you exactly the bike you ask for, of this I have no doubts, but that’s a world away from the bike you actually want. Have a think on that.

As a random example; you want a money-is-no-object do-everything frame that’ll potentially set you back several thousands of pounds and last you for the best part of the next two decades, and yet are basing immutable design decisions on random components you happen to have lying around. Seriously?

“Still, that’s the advantage of going to someone with no/little experience “

I’m not going to anyone with ‘no/little experience’, I’m going to be using the services of a framebuilder/s with many years of building frames behind them.

“you … get all grumpytrousers with anyone who dares disagree with you.”

This isn’t actually true, but if you want to think that, go ahead. I’ve actually taken several points raised by other posters, on board. Yes, I have had different opinions with certain individuals, but as it’s going to be MY bike not theirs, I’m entitled to do so. One or two posters have suggested ‘don’t do this or that’ without actually explaining why. Some of the ‘advice’ on this thread is contrary to what several actual frame builders have advised, therefore I’m inclined to go with what people who actually make bicycle frames advise, rather than with those who ave no experience of this.

“You’re set on a course which will ultimately get you exactly the bike you ask for, of this I have no doubts, but that’s a world away from the bike you actually want. Have a think on that.”

You have no idea what ‘course’ I’m on, the conversations I’ve had with various skilled and experienced people, the knowledge and experience I already have from working in the cycle industry, or indeed anything about me other than what you’ve decided to interpret on this one thread. Your only input to this thread appears to be to try to antagonise me. Have a think on that.

“you want a money-is-no-object do-everything frame that’ll potentially set you back several thousands of pounds and last you for the best part of the next two decades, and yet are basing immutable design decisions on random components you happen to have lying around. Seriously?”

Yes. You may think that’s a ‘risk’, but it’s one that I’m willing to take. I’m basing such choices on what I know to work for me personally. I have a far better idea of what that is, than you do.

“you don’t really know what you want. “

I have a pretty good idea, backed up by several people who know about framebuilding. It’s the fine details I’m trying to get worked out. This thread has been very helpful in certain ways, and I understand that on the internet, you will always get those who think they know better, and need to express their egos a bit. Fortunately, I’m able to filter out the wheat from the chaff.

Ok. I’d like to put this nonsense to bed. I appreciate any positive input from those with ideas and experience of having a frame made, and for those who simply want to shout ‘you’re wrong’ at me, I suggest you find another outlet for your energies. Thanks.

“I only sort the cable runs on my steel frames once I have a complete frame and dummy parts build to experiment with.”

This is very good advice. I have been thinking about what components will be used, and any possible alternatives that might come into play. This is something I will of course be discussing with the frame builder.

and I understand that on the internet, you will always get those who think they know better, and need to express their egos a bit.

Anyone got a link for a new irony meter? Mine’s just exploded.

” I understand that on the internet, you will always get those who think they know better, and need to express their egos a bit.”

🙂

EDIT. too slow I see!

Which frame builder are you going to use?

Who was that bloke who was a director of the surf/bike brand importer who used to come on here and try and wind people up every now and again until he got banned again?

“Which frame builder are you going to use?”

Not sure yet, although I have one or two ‘favourites’ so far, based on the conversations I’ve had with them. Definitely won’t be using on company, as their attitude was rather condescending and it seemed they weren’t interested in deviating from their own limited palette of designs. As it’s actually a rather simple design brief ultimately, it looks like it will come down to whoever can sort out the fine details the best. I won’t be naming names just yet, but will be making a decision in the next couple of weeks or so, and get some money down on it. Considering what’s involved with a custom build, I think the actual costs are pretty reasonable actually, certainly when considered relative to many other items.

bartyp – Member
“as their attitude was rather condescending and it seemed they weren’t interested in deviating from their own limited palette of designs.”

Oh the iornings.

It was SurfSales, although they seem to be mostly closed down now. Maybe he has time on his hands?

You have no idea… anything about me other than what you’ve decided to interpret on this one thread.

Sure, and I wasn’t claiming otherwise. How could I?

Your only input to this thread appears to be to try to antagonise me. Have a think on that.

Heh. Don’t flatter yourself, I don’t really care sufficiently to waste time intentionally antagonising you. I was actually trying to help you avoid potentially making a very expensive mistake.

But again, you’re assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is “antagonising” or otherwise unqualified to comment, and that’s not going to make a great impression when people who actually do this stuff professionally are offering you free advice. The ones shouting “you’re wrong” that you’re instantly dismissive of (did anyone actually say that?) might well just be Internet warriors of course, but alternatively they might actually have a point.

Ho hum. Anyway. I sincerely wish you all the best with your build and look forward to reading the rest of the story.

Which frame builder are you going to use?

I dunno, it all got confusing somewhere arround these comments:

I’ve merely stated I would rather get advice from someone who actually builds Titanium frames, than someone who doesn’t. I think that’s perfectly fair really.

a lad who’s just starting out in (steel) frame-building, with a view to setting something up with him

But in all seriousness:

Probably 160mm maximum really. Won’t need as much braking power as something like an enduro style MTB for example. Maybe even 140mm on the rear, as I’m not that heavy

Don’t underestimate braking forces on the road. An Enduro bike, or even a DH bike is braking from 25mph and limited by the traction of the trail surface. And the speed is continuously scrubbed off by the rough trail doing a lot of the work. A road bike you’ll be braking from 50mph+, with far more grip, and you lose almost no energy to the roughness of the road, and if carrying panniers you’ll be carrying 20% more weight too.

It was SurfSales, although they seem to be mostly closed down now. Maybe he has time on his hands?

That’ll be our Graeme, if you need a quick reminder. He crops up like a fart in a lift every so often, we deleted his latest alter-ego only a month or so ago. He sent us an email in response telling us how shit we were and how rubbish the site was, then promising that he’d return at some point. Which presumably made some sort of sense in his head, I have no idea.

and here we are 😉

Oh yeah, and he accused the forum of dying out – the day after the busiest day the website had ever seen, with some 92,000+ visitors. (-:

‘Custom rack’- would be very nice, yet very expensive, especially in Titanium,

A custom frame isn’t exactly cheap, a rack would be a small percentage of the overall cost.

But…why not have the rack incorporated into the frame rather than an accessory? That would be the most “elegant” solution.

Something like this, but obviously much nicer and in keeping with your frame rather than just looking like a welded on extra:

😯

wow, that ‘could’ be more ugly I suppose, but you’d have to try really really hard

Not quite as cool as a radball frame though

My eyes!!

Pffft!

This, however;

have you been in my garage waswas!

Lets not derail the thread ^^, it has all the hallmarks of being a beaut.

Interested to know who the builder is as I wasn’t aware of that many in the UK that specialise in titanium which I thought (quite possibly incorrectly) was a lot more finicky to weld well than steel.

wow, that ‘could’ be more ugly I suppose, but you’d have to try really really hard

In fairness I was thinking more along the lines of Jones rather than Cube 😉

I stand by my suggestion though.

turboferret – Member

If you are going to have a rack on there full-time, why not build the rack into the frame? I took quite a bit of inspiration from Rob English when putting together my bike – load of fantastic stuff on his site.

I wondered what had become of ‘Bob’ English. Went to school with him and shared a DT Class at A-Level. I remember he built a Ti seatpost which failed and a recumbent built out of a cannibalised regular frame. Nice chap and gald to see he has chased his dream.

OP, out of interest is the frame that your basing your new design on, made from Ti?

Is that fixie-thing supposed to wheelie everywhere? Otherwise the geometry, flat pedals and 1:1 gearing make no sense!