Titanium frame needed; custom or off the peg?

Whereas you’re simply annoying because you’ve nothing constructive to add. I’d be grateful if just those with relevant information/experience posted here, thanks.

Oh… I’d also add that you want to make sure that if you’re going to provide preferred measurements for the frame that you want to make sure there’s no ambiguity over how they’re taken. I sidestepped that one by simply providing a (cracked) frame that I liked. Good luck!

And rather than being annoying, I was trying to be constructive and point out that your relationship with your frame builder is worth cultivating if you want them to go the extra mile for you. Just a thought.

the thing is, you likely have a very long list of ‘requirements’ but no idea how to turn this into something good. A good builder will take these requirements, understand which compromises to make and use their skill/ experience to create something brilliant.

Or you trust your own ability and tell them exactly what you want.. but unless your a frame designer what’s the point in that? they’re almost definitely better at it than you are.

You’ll get the best outcome if you have a clear idea of what you want and then trust the builder to turn those ideas into something good.

Its the same with architecture ( my own field) let the designer do his/her own job, otherwise just hire a far eastern pipe welder. Just don’t blame them if it’s not all that you’d hoped for 🙂

btw, I’m only commenting as I have just been through a similar situation myself and my builder was brilliant.

I will be using a retired frame as a reference, as it’s a near-perfect fit, and has ideal geometry. The builder can use that as a starting point, and work from there.

“You’ll get the best outcome if you have a clear idea of what you want and then trust the builder to turn those ideas into something good.”

I’ve been saying this al along. People have either ignored me, misunderstood, or assumed I don’t know what I’m talking about. Which is their problem, not mine.

I almost wish I did want a steel frame, as there are so many more options than Titanium. Companies like Field, Saffron, Donhou and many others make some gorgeous frames.

http://www.fieldcycles.com/gallery

can’t be arsed to go through cherry picking quotes but that’s not how it sounded, hence the replies.

good luck on the search though!

Brant; have you made many Titanium frames?

From On-One Tinbred, On-One CX, On-One 456 Ti (10/10 in What Mtb) to Ragley Ti, Td1, On-One Ti456 Evo, Planet X ProRoad, Titus Fireline Evo, On-One Pickenflick, to the double figures of Pact frames, as well as custom frames along the way for Doddy from MBUK and MC from CRC.

A few. Yeah. Certainly in the thousands.

Pact offer full 3d modelling of our frames for sign off by customers.

We have a dodgy website and are a bit odd though.

This customer seems happy. But apparently we are related
https://t.co/zXNtQW8ufm

Lolz

So, you’ve personally made thousands of titanium frames then Brant?

I suspect Pact won’t be making you a bike.
I have an inkling this won’t upset either party overly.

Robin Mather used to advertise that he made Ti bikes. A Ted James would be very cool. Personally I wouldn’t have V brake bosses and disc tabs. Also I wouldn’t be tempted to go for 953 over ti. For a steel bike Demon Frameworks look awesome.

So, you’ve personally made thousands of titanium frames then Brant?

Hi, I’m sorry, I should have clarified. I’m a bicycle designer. I design frames, and then work with fabricators with detailed specifications and dimensional drawings to get them to weld and form things to our agreed specification.

I haven’t made a frame since my last one in 1988.

bartyp – Member
So, you’ve personally made thousands of titanium frames then Brant?

I think you’ll struggle to find a UK builder who has….

“I haven’t made a frame since my last one in 1988.”

So you’ve never made a Titanium frame? Ok. I’ll get advice from people who actually have, thanks. I’ve no doubt you’ve got lots of experience in ordering and importing Far-Eastern manufactured goods, but that’s not what I want. Thanks for your input though.

“I’m a bicycle designer. I design frames, and then work with fabricators with detailed specifications and dimensional drawings to get them to weld and form things to our agreed specification.”

Which is pretty much what I’ll be doing. Conversations with actual frame builders I’ve had so far, suggest what I want isn’t actually that difficult, so it will be quite easy for them to work with my ideas. Which is encouraging at this stage. We’ll be working with a pretty tried and tested ‘design’, so it’s more about tweaking bits here and there and ‘personalising’ it really. I’ve been looking into anodised graphics on the frame for example; Firefly do this, and I’ve learned this could be possible with my frame. Utterly indulgent, but why not?

During my research and talking to others, I am now going to be having some conversations with a lad who’s just starting out in (steel) frame-building, with a view to setting something up with him and possibly others. Potentially a very exciting project!

, I am now going to be having some conversations with a lad who’s just starting out in (steel) frame-building, with a view to setting something up with him and possibly others. Potentially a very exciting project!

Sounds very exciting, and the point I was at in about 1988.

All the best with your quest.

Whoever gets to build your frame will be a very lucky boy (or girl).

2nd Hand?? I have a Rock Lobster Team Ti going spare very soon. Should take 700c wheels with road tyres can verify if interested. Disc brake only.

Size 19″ and VGC

So you’ve never made a Titanium frame? Ok. I’ll get advice from people who actually have, thanks. I’ve no doubt you’ve got lots of experience in ordering and importing Far-Eastern manufactured goods, but that’s not what I want. Thanks for your input though.

I’ve got rather unpleasant mental image of teeth being thumbed in brant’s direction.

This whole thread seems to have been a bit like that from the OP though.

Which is a bit sad as a lot of the ‘help me with my design’ threads end up with a lot of interesting technical discussions and a story that you can see develop through to a completed bike.

imo the design(ergo the designer) is more important than the builder.

tweeking an existing frame with their ideas is how my 2 buddies ended up with a bike that was unridable- basically the changes they requested made the BB too low on one bike and the head angle too steep on another.

“imo the design(ergo the designer) is more important than the builder.”

I like to see it as a collaboration between people with different, yet complimentary skills. I’m currently building a ‘scrapbook’ of possible features/details, which I can present to whoever will be building the frame, for discussion. They may tell be that X isn’t possible, but Y and Z are. Somewhat like how designers, architects and engineers work together to realise projects. I have a good idea of what I want, the builder will be able to advise on possible issues and alternative solutions.

“tweeking an existing frame with their ideas is how my 2 buddies ended up with a bike that was unridable”

I’d essentially be wanting existing geometry to be replicated, knowing that it will work for me, but be open to suggestions as to how translating this into Titanium will work best. So it’s quite a conservative build really.

“This whole thread seems to have been a bit like that from the OP though.”

I think a few people have lost sight of the fact that it’ll be my bike, not theirs, and are unable/unwilling to be more objective about things. Seems to be a lot of opinions, yet not so many actual experiences.

Currently thinking about how to accomodate mudguards and a pannier rack around a disc mount. Many designs make this very difficult r even impossible,but there are solutions round this:

Can I be the first to point out that the fence is in need of some form of treatment…

As I have never had a uk built custom titanium touring frame built to my exact specifications I am unable to comment on this thread.
I’m sure there are lots of people on here that have though.

Seems to be a lot of opinions, yet not so many actual experiences.

dismissing brant’s input because he doesn’t actually wield the blow torch seems a bit like telling Gordon Murray you won’t buy his car because he didn’t personally slop the resin onto the carbon and wheel the chassis into an auto-clave.

There’s a lot of good advice on this thread, perhaps a less rigid approach to achieving the end result you want would pay dividends.

anyway, I’m oot.

Titanium frame needed; custom or off the peg?

the latter please

I’m neither a designer nor a builder but here’s some free advice; don’t choose a brake mounting solution until you’ve thought about cable/hose routing and don’t fit a cable-operated disk caliper to a mount in that position.

it’s a custom frame, why not just mount the rack further up the seat stays?

anyway, you should drop the ‘tude. I’m out too.

With respect to rack mounts, you can fit Axiom racks to conventional disk braked bikes as they fit with an “L” shaped bracket which hangs the rack over the back.

I’m not a fan of calipers between the stays.

And drop the attitude. Most framebuilders have waiting lists, the good ones stretching into months/years, they don’t need the grief that comes with comments like “And quite frankly, if you’d turn down £2-3000 worth of business just because the customer’s a bit fussy or annoying, you’re an idiot” when there’s already queue of people beating a path to their door.

There was a thread on frame builders not so long ago, Bespoked popped up and commented they were turning down “framebuilders” for Bespoked Bristol who were just starting up and had little more than an instgram account and a fancy web page, is that the quality you want to work with?

“dismissing brant’s input because he doesn’t actually wield the blow torch seems a bit like telling Gordon Murray you won’t buy his car because he didn’t personally slop the resin onto the carbon and wheel the chassis into an auto-clave.”

Personally, I feel that Brant’s approach isn’t one that’s going to attract my business. I’m sure it’s very successful with many others, yet Brant isn’t one of those who I’ll be talking to regarding having a frame built. I would say that perhaps just a little bit of investment in a simple website might, in my opinion, give off a more ‘professional’ approach, which in turn would instil faith in the products, but it seems Brant is’t interested in such attention to detail. That’s fine. As for ‘dismissing his input’; I’ve merely stated I would rather get advice from someone who actually builds Titanium frames, than someone who doesn’t. I think that’s perfectly fair really.

“don’t choose a brake mounting solution until you’ve thought about cable/hose routing and don’t fit a cable-operated disk caliper to a mount in that position.”

This is interesting. Care to elaborate?

“it’s a custom frame, why not just mount the rack further up the seat stays?”

It all depends on the rack design. Currently looking at Tubus Ti and Blackburn. But keeping things more ‘standard’ gives more options. The Tubus Fly looks very nice, but might put the panniers a bit high. The Logo Titan might be a better bet, although it’s a bit heavier. But as I’m not planning on doing any ‘heavy’ touring, the Fly might be perfect.

“And drop the attitude.”

I don’t have an ‘attitude’, other than knowing what I want. And that turning down any business just because a customer seems a bit ‘fussy’, is bad practice. Thankfully, no-one I’ve spoken to so far seems to think I am in any way fussy or annoying, and have been only to helpful to listen and give advice. I think a few posters on here cold learn something from them.

“With respect to rack mounts, you can fit Axiom racks to conventional disk braked bikes as they fit with an “L” shaped bracket which hangs the rack over the back.”

Not quite as elegant a solution, but a possibility, yes. I’d be mindful of extra fittings shaking loose though, and concerned about the rigidity of the set-up.

“I’m not a fan of calipers between the stays.”

Again, I’d be interested to read your thoughts on this. Quite a number of frames, custom and off the peg, have such mounts, so I’m sure they can be perfectly effective. I am considering aesthetics, and this does currently look like a good solution.

As for ‘dismissing his input’; I’ve merely stated I would rather get advice from someone who actually builds Titanium frames, than someone who doesn’t. I think that’s perfectly fair really.

Not really, the ability to weld and the ability design aren’t necessarily linked. Infact it’s as simplistic as the division of labor, check the back of a £20 note for the quote, “the great increase in the quantity of work that results”.

Again, I’d be interested to read your thoughts on this. Quite a number of frames, custom and off the peg, have such mounts, so I’m sure they can be perfectly effective. I am considering aesthetics, and this does currently look like a good solution.

It irks me because designers/builders claim it takes the stress away from the seatstay/dropout, and removes the need for a brace between the stays. When IMO having the brace is spreading the load between the two, not just swapping from one to the other. Either way it’s unlikely to be an issue on a road bike. But as others have said is also brings compatibility issues. Plenty of bikes with those mounts, particularly when they first appeared, had issues with only fitting certain brakes with certain disk sizes. That’s the kind of issue that could be resolved during prototyping but on a custom frame you never get that chance. Which is where the Brant’s of this world come in, designing a bike that works first time as he’s designed a lot (some of which didn’t work), then passing on the job onto someone who can weld but doesn’t necessarily know the nuances of brake clearances.

Like the difference between hiring a bricklayer and an architect.

If I was paying £3k for a frame I’d have the disk on the seatstay and I’d have a custom rack made to mount above it.

Note to O.P Brant designed On-Ones and Ragleys and I think some Planet X stuff too. You may not want to buy a bike off him but he always has good advice/ideas on threads like this.

Surely custom rack is the answer as done by Firefly, 44 Bikes (in steel) and I would assume many others.

And isn’t getting a frame made out of titanium with features such as the brake optionality so it can be repaired anywhere a bit counter intuitive?

If you are going to have a rack on there full-time, why not build the rack into the frame? I took quite a bit of inspiration from Rob English[/url] when putting together my bike – load of fantastic stuff on his site.

Brant had some very useful input on the design of my frame; I certainly would be ignoring the offer of advice from someone with so much experience.

Cheers, Rich

During my research and talking to others, I am now going to be having some conversations with a lad who’s just starting out in (steel) frame-building, with a view to setting something up with him and possibly others. Potentially a very exciting project!

Lord help us!

“It irks me because designers/builders claim it takes the stress away from the seatstay/dropout, and removes the need for a brace between the stays. “

In fairness, they probably know more about what works and what doesn’t, than you or I do. And There seem to be many builders and companies who do just this, so I’d imagine it’s been tried and tested sufficiently. I take your point about caliper compatibility though, that is something to consider.

‘Custom rack’- would be very nice, yet very expensive, especially in Titanium, and as racks are things that tend to get bashed around/are a bit vulnerable, I think standard mounts would be more sensible, although I am contemplating having a custom rack made.

Turboferret; is that your bike? It’s beautiful. I suppose a built-in rack would be a minimal weight penalty, and save weight over a bolt-on version. Definitely something to consider. I’d be a little concerned about it getting bashed around though.

When IMO having the brace is spreading the load between the two, not just swapping from one to the other.

It’s a good point and varies from frame to frame. However over stiffening a joint can cause more problems than it solves. There have been instances of spectacularly badly applied stay braces on frames over the years.

Brant had some very useful input on the design of my frame; I certainly would be ignoring the offer of advice from someone with so much experience.

Hope those chainstays are holding up at that ovalisation point I was worried about.

Brant had some very useful input on the design of my frame; I certainly would be ignoring the offer of advice from someone with so much experience.

Hope those chainstays are holding up at that ovalisation point I was worried about.[/quote]

I am pleased to report that the frame is holding up nicely 🙂

This is the mounts at the back end of my bike, although I’m not using a rack:

The brake mounts aren’t quite as I had envisaged, the one on the seat-stay being a bit clunky and industrial looking, but they do the job OK.

Cheers, Rich

It’s a very neat and tidy looking set up though. Another thing I need to consider, is whether to use post mount or ISO disc mounts. Most calipers seem to be of the former these days, so maybe better to use them, as I’d rather not be faffing with adapters and stuff. Any thoughts on this?

“And isn’t getting a frame made out of titanium with features such as the brake optionality so it can be repaired anywhere a bit counter intuitive?”

I’m agonising over this. I have XTR and Avid Ultimate V-brake options, and v-brakes are pretty ubiquitous these days, so there’s greater chance I’ll be able to find spare bits in an emergency. This would of course necessitate wheels utilising rims with a braking surface, but there’s little or no issues or weight penalty there, so not a problem. I could have removable v-brake pivots, although this would still present an aesthetic compromise.

Really like this design from Shand, utilising a modular dropout system which can be changed for a Rohloff hub fitting. Very versatile, but I suspect would come very expensive in Titanium.

Fascinated by this mad dropout as on a friend’s Surly Troll, allowing all sorts of wheel/hub combinations, but it looks heavy and a bit overkill.