Given the brexit shambles, I think there is one thing the SNP should definitely do.

And that’s to take the position that after we’ve negotiated separation from the UK, we’ll put it back to the people for approval.

It’d be a kinda silly stance to be for a second vote on brexit, and for a second vote for independence for them not to take this position.

Essentially. The next independence referendum shouldn’t be asking for independence, it should asking to negotiate a full separation settlement before going back to the people of Scotland for approval.

I think this would also make people sit up and think, that’s reasonable and could persuade a good few to change their current position and shift the current minority position(that hasn’t really moved in the last 5 years.)

Thoughts?

The next independence referendum shouldn’t be asking for independence, it should asking to negotiate a full separation settlement before going back to the people of Scotland for approval.

I don’t understand what you mean. Could you try again please.

Ah right. Gotcha, yes indeed. Not a bad idea that.

if your lucky you might get 15 retweets and some likes, the irony meter gif could come out though along with a pick of Alex.

I’m hopig Brexit will kill off the idea of Scotland breaking away once and for all.
Two possible outcomes:
1) Brexit is a success, UK prospers after opening up to the rest of the world. In that case why would we want to leave?
2) Brexit is a failure, which shows that the idea of leaving an even more deeply entwined union is a really bad plan.
.
I fear that your idea will appeal to Sturgeon though, she seems to be in favour of making people vote again and again and again until the y give a result she likes. To be fair, that does back up her European credentials, they seem to like making people rerun a referendum until they give the answer that the powers that be wanted, most recently Ireland with the Lisbon treaty

I’m hopig Brexit will kill off the idea of Scotland breaking away once and for all.
Two possible outcomes:
1) Brexit is a success, UK prospers after opening up to the rest of the world. In that case why would we want to leave?
2) Brexit is a failure, which shows that the idea of leaving an even more deeply entwined union is a really bad plan.

Is the air breathable on your planet, or do you have to wear a suit?.

Indepndence for scotland seems the only way out of this mess to me. No real need for a second vote on a deal either IMO – its not as if we will be negotiating or that there are varients of independence.

Essentially. The next independence referendum shouldn’t be asking for independence, it should asking to negotiate a full separation settlement before going back to the people of Scotland for approval.

Do you mean, before having a referendum that would most likely reject Scottish independence. You’d spend months and months in acrimonious negotiations, before having the referendum to tell you you needn’t have bothered?

Indepndence for scotland seems the only way out of this mess to me. No real need for a second vote on a deal either IMO – its not as if we will be negotiating or that there are varients of independence.

Presuming you want to stay in the EU, you’d need a hard border though and there’s no way the majority of Scottish voters would vote for that.

I’m with Andrewh on this. I voted no for independence and remain for Brexit and I would again. Both were ‘miss sold’ and this Brexit carry on just shows what a mess sorting independence would also be.

Independence was missold? What about ‘if you vote yes, you’re out of the eu’?

How’s that working out for you?….

gauss1777

Do you mean, before having a referendum that would most likely reject Scottish independence. You’d spend months and months in acrimonious negotiations, before having the referendum to tell you you needn’t have bothered?

Yip, completely remove the element of brinkmanship, tbh it really shouldn’t take that long if you just let the lawyers deal with it. Rather than play it out as a public pantomime.

, they seem to like making people rerun a referendum until they give the answer that the powers that be wanted,

Remind me is May return the bill for a third vote because she got the answer she wanted the first time?

Do you think we’d all be enduring this colossal bullshit if brexit had been carried 90/10, or 80/20? Obviously not – It would be done and dusted absolutely no sweat. That is your answer for Scottish Independence (as if it needed saying). You can’t squeak your way over the line on this sort of monumental issue, you either carry it with a crushing majority like all other successful independence / secession motions in history, or you don’t waste time trying because events are not yet in your favour.

Sure I even read something sensible by the OP along these lines – you need to wait to win. NS has to realise she’s, at the outside, John the Baptist for independence. Preparing the way for the one who holds the key to the Promised Land. Not counting tenths of percentage points to put a leave poll at 55% and go to the country.

I remember discussing whether they should have had a solid proposal before having a referendum, before we had the Scottish one. I cba to find the evidence but I’m sure it was because they weren’t allowed to have negotiations before they had a memorandum from the people

“Nobeerinthefridge
Independence was missold? What about ‘if you vote yes, you’re out of the eu’?

How’s that working out for you?….”

?? I didn’t vote yes, or want out of the EU.

Are you saying that would have happened? Because I don’t believe Sturgeon and the rest had any more idea what would happen than the EU leavers if Scotland had got independence.

The UK might have it’s issues, but to my mind it’s a pretty good place to live and the EU has worked out pretty well overall.

No, what I’m saying is that we were threatened with being out of the eu if we voted yes, lots of folk shat themselves at this when they wheeled oot some Franco-crazed anti-catalonian Spaniard, and the rest is history.

Irony of ironies.

aweeshoe

Member
I remember discussing whether they should have had a solid proposal before having a referendum, before we had the Scottish one. I cba to find the evidence but I’m sure it was because they weren’t allowed to have negotiations before they had a memorandum from the people

I’d think the SNP should campaign on the OP, and gain a proper mandate for it, rather than just as a footnote, it should be their main policy in whichever next election.

To be fair, the SNP published a white paper, some of which was rightly rubbished, and this obviously influenced the vote.

Of only the Whories had published a Brexit whitepaper….

longdog

…The UK might have it’s issues, but to my mind it’s a pretty good place to live…

Looked at the DWP death list recently?

Oddly, I’ve not looked at any death list ever, but I stand by my opinion that the UK is a pretty good place to live as it is; some people just don’t realise how good they have it.

There are problems and problem areas, but look around the world; is it really that bad?

Longdog -its a lot worse than it could be and a lot worse than our european neighbours.

I despair at what our dysfunctional political system has given us. the damage of the extremist hard right governments have done is incredible and non of these hard right government have every had a majority of votes but our dysfunctional and corrupt political system has allowed the hard right to run roughshod over the needs of the country.

I love scotland dearly but I am likely to leave it to live in mainland europe as I want to live in a progressive society where people don’t die because their benefits are cut, where we don’t have beggars on the streets, where the old, the sick and the vulnerable are well looked after.

I’ve looked we have food banks and a Draconian benefits sanction regime. We have a right wing government,led(I use the term advisedly) by someone who thought driving vans around asking immigrants to go home was a good idea. Those are just short term things though.
Long term we have a culture of cost cutting, and not investing in our industries and services. A government system that is overwhelmingly dominated by one part of the Union. Our politicians are still overwhelmingly drawn from a privileged class. They are elected by system which discourages collegiate working and compromise. The media is largely right wing and it’s difficult for the public to have any effective redress when misrepresented by the media. Yes independence can be better

Joe, in answer to your question, I think that sounds very good, I’d go with that.

In general though, this thread will go down the ubiquitous rabbit hole, especially once eatthebreid sees it’s here.

I’m out. 😊

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not happy with the government or lots of social policies at all. I’ve suffered with the benefit system in the past and I’m suffering at the hands of the struggling NHS right now. But, I’d still rather be here than anywhere else.

I guess I’m generally lucky to be in a bit of a bubble where I am living right now (Shetland) and luckily both me and my wife in a good job.

Scotland deserves a chance to express their Independence preference after the UK leaves the EU. It’s obvious that the rUK has let Scotland down with the ref vote to Leave. Scotland is overwhelmingly Remain and the Scottish people deserve a say in their future. The same applies to NI + Wales.

Presuming you want to stay in the EU, you’d need a hard border though and there’s no way the majority of Scottish voters would vote for that.

No hard border, “technology” will solve ANY border issues.

I’m sure that the SNP have learnt an awful lot from Brexit.

Brexit was won by selling an impossible fantasy to people who wanted to see things get better.

Inevitably that dream has now hit reality.

Independence would have to be sold honestly, it would have to take time, planning & be done on the best possible terms with rUK. Be wisest to do a 2 stage ref & let people decide on what is actually the end point, not the fantasy.

You can’t just scrape victory by conning the desperate & gullible, or you’ll end up in the sort of mess the UK is in now.

I’m sure that the SNP have learnt an awful lot from Brexit.

How to conduct themselves in the House of Commons with a bit of dignity  and as a concerted group?

….unlike the two larger parties.

Nobeerinthefridge Believe me I enjoy typing the same thing over and over about as much as y’all enjoy reading it.

I’ve had seven years of constitutional arsebanditry navel gazing and lies from politicians of all colours with all encompassing agendas and flag wrapped simple answers to complicated issues.

A turd wrapped in a flag (of any colour) is still a turd.

Eatthebreid(that’s a keeper) 😆 me old mucker, given that the Independence question isn’t going to go away. Do you accept my proposition as a viable solution to the question? (One way or the other).

it doesn’t matter, none of it matters, the windbags in power will just get their way everytime because the people don’t matter.

We’ll go out of the EU with no deal and spend the next 30 years picking up the pieces. I doesn’t matter that we were sold a lie by xenophobes, racists or cheap drink purveyors who look a bit like Doc Brown. Scotland will be told no second independence referendum and to get back in the corner until we need to test out a new poll tax on you, take the profits of your exports, store our knackered nuclear subs or destroy any industry you still have.

No matter what happens, this is the United Kingdom of England (or at least the south bit from Hertfordshire down) and you will obey or you’ll get the hose.

seosamh,
I appreciate that you’ve put a new wrinkle on an old question, but I agree with the others who have said that it would not be practical.

Look at Brexit (oh god how I wish I would never have to say those words again), and just imagine how the “post vote” negotiations would go. The closer the margin (of any independence vote) the worse the recriminations and grandstanding would be. There would basically be a long period of continued campaigning, rather than a practical consideration of what is going to happen.

It would be better to try and find some honesty in the campaign stages so that people actually knew what they were voting for, but I think we’ve all seen that the state of the press and the standard of political debate in the UK (including Scotland) would make that all but impossible.

Requiring a supermajority for a major constitutional change (> 50% of the whole electorate, or maybe 60% of those who vote) would be simpler and avoid most of the disadvantages of the current “50% plus 1” of those who can be arsed turning up which has served us really badly recently. Your cooling off period would not be required, because the super majority would be unlikely to be swayed enough by passing events to change the overall direction of movement.

I think that both things (your cooling off period or a supermajority) would make independence less likely, but more likely to be a success if it happened.
(and more acceptable to people like me who think its a bad idea)

For example I have always been in favour of proportional representation. But when we had a referendum on it courtesy of the lib dems in 2011 the result was 67% against. Its a dead subject.

Thats what the scottish independence campaign should be aiming for. Not scraping across the line on a result that could change in a few weeks.

EDIT: Call me what you like, but I still prefer pudding.

tjagain
“I love scotland dearly but I am likely to leave it to live in mainland europe as I want to live in a progressive society where people don’t die because their benefits are cut, where we don’t have beggars on the streets, where the old, the sick and the vulnerable are well looked after.”

Interested to know where you would go? Serious question btw. MrsT has some health issues and would benefit from living somewhere warm. We have considered moving and are now recently retired. However the cost of health care is an issue we need to consider. Diabetes care, complicated by psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis
Writing from Cyprus