About 41 mins today for the Harrogate 10k on a lumpy mixed course. Really enjoyed it, a lovely run along paths and country lanes. Happy enough with the time (2nd vet50) considering I’ve not been training, just jogging around a bit.

The Greensand way is always a good bet. I know the section from Ightham to Oxted very well from my mtb riding. It’d all run very nicely too I expect.

Chevy chase fell race yesterday.

20 miles, 5000ft of climbing. So hard. Died on my behind the last 5 miles, quads were battered, went to a run walk, and just went backwards.

Today has been ‘interesting’…

It’s weird how expectations change.
Did a half yesterday, sneaked just under 90 minutes and was not happy with how it went. Felt stodgy from the start and couldn’t really get in any rhythm. Held on to the pace, but I was on the edge all run.
12 months ago I did the same event and was absolutely chuffed to break 90, this year I did an almost identical time and wasn’t at all satisfied.
Standards have gone up.

I’ve got some of those trail shorts that can carry water – you can stick two 250ml soft flasks in the back. It’s not a bad idea and they’re not uncomfortable with the flasks, but tbh 500ml is a bit of a no-man’s-land when it comes to carrying liquid: it’s not enough for a long run, but for anything under an hour I wouldn’t carry water anyway (and that’s living in central Spain, with proper heat…) I suppose it’s quite nice to be able to wet your mouth when it gets hot, but from a hydration PoV they’re pretty useless.

When I want to carry water I use a waist belt with bottle holder. Do all my long runs with this (it also has a pocket for food and keys etc). Took a bit of experimentation to find a waist belt that works for me, I have to do it pretty tight but it’s round my hips so isn’t uncomfortable.

500ml is ok for me in winter, even for 3h runs. In summer, well I don’t do 3h runs 🙂

The key with hydration is to plan your routes to pass a church or 2. Every church in the UK has an outdoors tap that is perfect for wetting your whistle and topping up any bottles.
I carry 2 500ml bottles for longer runs, but on a hot day I’ll get through those so a church or 2 is perfect for a top up.

Every church in the UK has an outdoors tap that is perfect for wetting your whistle and topping up any bottles

I did not know that, thanks.

It’s weird how expectations change

Isn’t it just. From running 2 marathons and hoping to do more, to not being able to run 10m. I don’t even have expectations now.

Standards have gone up.

Speak for yourself. I am revising mine down almost yearly……

How did everyone else’s weekend go?

I completed my first Ultra on Saturday, in fact it was my first marathon too 🙂
Finished the Lakeland 55km* in a little over 12 and a half hours. It was brutally hot with no shade or breeze for large swathes of it. My mate had to drop out at the 39km checkpoint due to the heat, he wasn’t alone by the sounds of it with MR teams helping some of the participants off the mountain with heatstroke.
Mega pleased with finishing it, I had a shitty build up to it with my own illness, stress from work, and my dad getting the big C.
That won’t be my last ultra, already thinking about which one to do next

(*It was actually nearer to 59km)

@spawnofyorkshire I was at Lakeland Trails too, probably saw you at some point.

I did the 100km route, really pleased to get round in just under 17 hours. Even managed a sprint for the line to the cheers of the crowd in the park. Great atmosphere and fantastic support from the feedstations and checkpoints. I’ve never drunk so much flat coke in my life!

It was a killer in the heat, I just couldn’t drink enough and struggled to keep eating.

My feet are shredded from the heat, my left ankle is swollen like a potato (twisted it after about 25km…) and I’m still struggling to walk downstairs. It was awesome.

This was my third ultra, did the 55km last year, got Lakes In A Day in October again. Already plotting for next year.

Anybody got tips for ultra foodstuffs? What keeps you going?
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I did a 100 mile ultra in the Basque Country, it was also bloody hot. Fortunately the heat and lack of rain meant the usual mud was more or less absent 🙂

Finished in 38:25 – I could probably have got round a bit faster, but I was with a mate and he was suffering from GI distress and that held us back a lot. He DNFed after 115km. I was never going to be bothering the podium contenders, so the final time doesn’t matter in the slightest.

Anybody got tips for ultra foodstuffs? What keeps you going?

Food and drinkwise I’m quite happy with how it went. My basic strategy was:

* Make sure I emptied at least one of the soft flasks by the time I hit a feed station, then fill up with water
* Important: Eat something savoury in the feed stations (usually a ham n cheese sandwich, with a bit of tomato)
* Eat more in the feed stations (usually melon/watermelon, orange, banana etc)
* Have a coffee / coke, and more water

then on leaving the feed stations:
* Walk for a few minutes to settle the stomach. All that liquid sloshing around made me feel slightly nauseous, but the feeling passes quite quickly.
* Wait an hour then start eating, aiming for something like a couple of gels or a Cliff bar every hour
* Salt tablet every two hours
* Alarm on my Garmin reminding me to drink every 20 minutes

Seemed to work quite well and I didn’t suffer any significant GI distress, and my wee was fairly clear coloured which is always a good sign.

Anybody got tips for ultra foodstuffs?

I mix (not all at the same time, but alternating between) some bars I know work for me (Tribe or Clif, usually), gels or Clif Shotblocs, and then savoury snacks, usually mini veg samosas/empanadas/wraps etc. One bottle of Tailwind, one just of water. It really is a case of ‘what you can stomach’, though.

I struggled with the food at the feed stations. I’m lactose intolerant, but the volunteers didn’t know what was dairy free or not so i ended up with the only savoury things i ate being a few crisps or peanuts. Next one i’ll carry my own food to make sure i eat properly.
I mostly got round on gels and a few jelly babies (plus two opportunistic callipo’s!!)
I had a bad period when my stomach cramped up, but i forced myself to keep drinking and had a couple of gels and it sorted me out. I had electrolytes in my flasks the whole way round and never felt anything bad in that regard

@doom_mountain – congratulations on the 100km! Fair play in that heat

@mogrim – amazing stuff doing a 100miler in spain in summer.
I can barely comprehend how i got round my course let alone something bigger

Little bit different one, but similar.

I did the Saunders Lakeland Mountain Marathon (SLMM) a couple of weekends ago. For those who’ve not done/heard of Mountain Marathons before, they’re usually two days of long-course orienteering, in pairs, in mountainous terrain, carrying your overnight camping gear and food for the following day. Saunders is a bit more civilised than some (like the OMM I’m running later in the year) as it’s summer and you can pre-order beers, soft drinks and milk for the overnight camp.

Me and a mate were running in the ‘Harter Fell’ class, but both of us were not long off the back of Covid – him 3 weeks, me a week – so we were just taking it steady. Only aims were enjoy it, finish, and not break ourselves. Course ended up being 23.5km/1,450m ascent on day one and 17.5km/920m ascent on the second, starting from Eskdale and overnighting up at Wasdale Head. We achieved the aims, though I flagged pretty badly about two-thirds of the way through Day 2, climbing out of Miterdale I had a proper low and had to pause to recover a bit. We’d been absolutely mid-pack (45th out of 90-odd pairs) at the overnight camp, but dropped down to 53rd after day two – still not bad all in all. Biggest positive was clean navigation despite being up in the clag for a fair while on day one, and steady movement without too much faff time.

https://i.imgur.com/VPxwvXN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ehdO0vT.jpg

I’m normally pretty good with my food and drink. I think with the heat I completely lost my appetite and even the ‘usual’ snacks (Clif bars, Quorn sausage roll, malt loaf, various jellies) were tough to eat.

Feed stations were good though porridge, soup, noodles were life savers!

@mogrim that sounds awesome, great time for 100 miler. What event was it? I’m keen to do somethng a bit more adventurous. Thinking about the Lakeland 100(mile) next year…

@pyro that looks fantastic, I spend a lot time in and around those hills : )

Far too hot, far too long for me. Kudos for anyone who can manage that stuff. Roll on winter!

@doom_mountain

What event was it?

It was Ehunmilak: https://www.ehunmilak.com/en/

Happy to recommend it if you fancy a long race in north Spain – it’s handily close to San Sebastian and Bilbao which makes getting there easy, not to mention they’re great places to visit if you’re going with the family. They have three races: the 168km race I did, a 98km ultra, and a 42km marathon.

After the stories of ultras and mountains above, it’s back to reality here in the Midlands with a mid-week 10k race.
Pan flat course and the main goal is to beat my clubmate. It’s also a chance to see if the Adidas Takumi Sen 8’s are all they’re cracked up to be.
I’m expecting it to be hot.

@lunge – I really like the TS8’s, I’m sure you’ll go well in them despite the temperature. Good luck

the main goal is to beat my clubmate

😀

Same here. Local 5 miler (Tony Barnes 5) in Sefton Park tonight. A few weeks of ok training and a regular 30mpw so interesting to see how I fare against a couple of club mates and any other V55’s. My 25:50 PB from a few years ago wont be revised….

Jake Wightman – what a run! Superb.

WRT food for Ultra’s

My staple is white bread peanut butter and jam, or pb and marmite butties, supplemented with Haribo Tangfastics and flapjacks. Gels every now and then and cold pizza is nice, but if its overcooked its too dry, I find it easier to get the butties the right consistency.

I find SiS / High5 / Mountain Fuel gels seem to be the best for me, they’re quite watery, but things like Torq and PowerBar gels are too thick and too strongly flavoured. Caffeine ones can give you a boost when required but it can be easy to overdo them.

I’ll chuck in a couple of electrolyte tabs on really long runs (6 hrs +) but tend to find they make me feel ill / dehydrated (I know they shouldn’t) so prefere to drink water and trust / imagine that I’m getting my salts through food.

At the other end of the spectrum, I’ve been running and slowly increasing my distance / speed over the last couple of years. Goal has been to avoid injuries and keep consistent and finally ran my first 10k in 37 years ! ( 55 mins so can hopefully only get faster !). Not very far of fast compared to all you mega runners on here but thanks for keeping me inspired

@claudie well done and your approach is very sensible, well done for holding back and not overdoing it too quickly, that is a sure fire way to get injuries. Consistency over a long period of time, injury free is better.

FWIW I spent the last 2 years prior to this one running a lot, I clocked up 2000 miles in each of those years which still isn’t loads compared to some, but is hard to maintian. I then got an injury last winter which put me out of proper running for a good few months and its taken me ages to get back to near my weekly mileage targets.

Ergo I’d have been better off maintaining 50 – 60 km per week than 50 – 60 miles per week as I would have been less likely to have been injured, I’d probably be better rested so faster racing, and my overall mileage in the last 2.5 years would probably have been the same.

Hydration: I’d strongly recommend not doing what Mogrim did- setting a watch and target to drink fluids and pushing specific volumes of fluid at checkpoints. This trail leads to hyponatraemia, cerebral oedema, fitting and death. Please don’t set hydration targets for ultras, especially in the heat. Drink to thirst. Trust me, I deal with this a lot.
Colour of wee is not a good guide to how well hydrated you are; metabolite water is being produced all the time when exercising and can mislead you.
Food: practice eating real food for ultras. It’s way too individual to give specific advice. instead, look at what others use and try out options when training. Personally I’ve been known to eat proper butcher’s pies, another vote for veg samosas, carrying small packs of cooked sausages & boiled potatoes. Strong savoury flavours can help at times, like a spicy relish or pickle to add to food.
I’m a fan of eating real food on ultras but particularly, eat early to stimulate gut activity before it has a chance to shut down on you. Make sure you empty your lower intestines regularly and early so that you have somewhere to send processed food as it leaves the stomach.
Salt tablets are mostly snake oil and rarely required, even in a hot climate. You’ve a lot of free salt available in the body tissues which damps out changes, providing you are not over hydrating.. The tiny amount of salt that is present in the tablets that you can stomach will make almost no difference. Enjoy a packet of crisps or nuts if you crave salt, it’ll deal with the craving and do you way more good; the oils are a good energy source.
Isotonic drinks are misnamed, they’re not genuinely isotonic to human blood. They are more dilute than you are, so just dilute you further. Most runners have no need to waste money on these and misunderstanding them is potentially dangerous, see above.
Finally and apologies for the long essay and mild lecture..
Avoid all forms of Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs). These are very dangerous in ultra running, doubling down on the kidney insult that comes from exercising hard for prolonged periods. This can frequently lead to rhabdomyolysis that when untreated can lead to catastrophic kidney failure and without prompt and appropriate treatment, a very poor outcome.
Examples are Ibuprofen, Naproxen, Diclofenac and all associated products taken orally.
If I find runners using these at Scottish ultras without prior clearance, that’s an instant DQ and sent home.

This weekend I’ll be on duty at the Highlander, last one standing race at Blair Castle in Perthshire. It should be really interesting to see how many laps of the backyard format we see at this event, the culmination of the Home Nations series. There will be up to 200 starters. Should be fun. See you next Tuesday..?

Despite conventional wisdom I did a long run last saturday ahead of a long race on saturday. I ahve done nothing since. Will it do me any benefit to go on a run before the race on saturday, or should I just enjoy my recovery week?

Will it do me any benefit to go on a run before the race on saturday, or should I just enjoy my recovery week?

Almost certainly no. The time between completing a training session and receiving the benefit from that session is much more than a week. Any training you do this week may help you in 2+ weeks time but is likely to have a detrimental impact on a race in a few days. If this race is part of a bigger overall plan then it may be a good idea to train through it and largely ignore the result. If it is a major goal all you can do now is rest and maybe jog a few miles the day before. You cant put anything else in for Saturday.

Thanks, was wondering if an easy ‘recovery run’ would be of benefit, I figure my body will naturally flush out any lactic acid over the restful week.

My (misguided) strategy for the long race was that I hadn’t been able to build up enough long miles over the winter, so thought that by incorporating the race as just another long run within my overall training plan. I’ve been doing long / hard runs every week for a while now, and I’ve always seen week on week improvements doing that. I’m aware its not optimal, but you knoww hat a lot of runners are like.

Thanks, was wondering if an easy ‘recovery run’ would be of benefit, I figure my body will naturally flush out any lactic acid over the restful week.

No way I would go for a whole week before a race without a run, no way at all, my legs would feel very stodgy.
I’d be doing at least 2 runs the week before an event, maybe 3. Mid-week I’d be doing a 45 minute run very easy just to keep the legs moving, I’d then do a much shorter run 24 ish hours before which had a few strides throw in.

I’m an advocate of doing something before a big race, for instance if I have a marathon I will try and do a reasonably quick parkrun the day before (if the race is a Sunday) and the day before that something like 12-15 miles at a reasonable pace. In years gone by when I’ve tried the 2 days/3days rest before races, I’ve seemed to be sluggish to get going and not performed as well as I can, so getting the legs moving in the days before I find works better for myself. Obviously this may not be optimal for others.
It’s worth noting thought that I have been running every day for the last 3 years and 2 months, and prior to that I had done an 8 month streak before getting bitten by a dog and having to stop for 3 weeks. Prior to that was maybe 5-6 days a week for about 3 years. The other thing I find is that I run better off higher mileages. So in a marathon build up I will steadily get better and more importantly feel stronger (but probably more tired) as the training goes on. My taper weeks will probably drop to about 55-60 miles from maybe 80, so its not a massive drop. I figure that as the body is used to going long then to drop it too much can’t be great for performance.

Hydration: I’d strongly recommend not doing what Mogrim did- setting a watch and target to drink fluids and pushing specific volumes of fluid at checkpoints. This trail leads to hyponatraemia, cerebral oedema, fitting and death. Please don’t set hydration targets for ultras, especially in the heat. Drink to thirst. Trust me, I deal with this a lot.

That’s kind of ignoring the bit where I said I was also taking salt tablets regularly. Plus gels with sodium in them. And savoury food at every checkpoint. I stick by my advice, it’s *very* easy to get dehydrated while running in warmer temperatures.

I note you’re talking about ultras in Scotland, where your maximum temperatures are probably close to my nighttime minimums. That might also play a part…

Colleague: Tim Noakes, ‘Waterlogged. The serious problem of over hydration in ultra running’.
He works in South Africa, which has been known to be quite warm, eg at the Comrades, where Tim works with Chris Ellis.
Hot conditions tend to enhance the problem rather than diminish it.

Tim Noakes on the Serious Problem of Overhydration in Endurance Sports

From nutrition to pre-race rituals the key thing is that there’s plenty of knowledge out there, but you need to work things out for yourself, and practice these things in training.

One thing I forgot to mention on the food for ultra’s is its not just about what food you like after 14 hrs, its about training your body to be able to digest food after that amount of time. Although plenty of people can run a marathon on an empty stomach, if you’re training for a 6+ hr event you need to practice eating whilst running, so you may even need to force yourself to eat something counter-intuitive (like a pork pie / butty) on a much shorter run.

Mogrim, I’m not singling you out here; I have similar conversations to this with many dozens of ultra runners every season. I’ve been treating sick runners with overhydration every year since first meeting it in 2004. this has been in every sort of ultra event in all sorts of conditions, including events held in the mid 30’s C, so I know what I’m dealing with.
Up here in Scotland, I’ve been promoting awareness of these issues and trying to educate runners year after year. Hyponatraemia used to be commonplace; I’d once seen 4 confirmed cases from among 80 runners on a hot, humid race that started at 18C at 0100hrs and by 24 hours later, the field was in bits.

Similarly, 15 years ago Rhabdo was common. Education of the community has reduced the frequency, particularly through avoiding NSAIDs but it still comes up frequently enough. I had two confirmed cases at the West Highland Way race in June this year, from a start line of 195. At least now we have point of care blood analysis in the field and at the finish line, so both of these serious issues can be diagnosed within a few minutes. Thanks to the support of Siemens Healthcare and their EPOC units.

Mogrim, I’m not singling you out here; I have similar conversations to this with many dozens of ultra runners every season.

I don’t feel singled out, I just don’t agree (100%) with you 🙂

I think there’s two points I mainly disagree with: I think you’re overly dismissive of the utility of drinking to a plan given how easy it is to get dehydrated on a summer ultra, and overly optimistic about the availability of savoury food.

I’d also point out that I’m usually carrying about a litre of water between aid stations, which isn’t a huge amount to drink in the 1:30-2 hours or so it usually takes between them.

I think we’ll just have to agree to differ; all of the scientific & specialist medical community now endorse ‘drink to thirst’ in place of drink to programme. Bear in mind please that I issue exactly this advice in my role as lead event medic at all of our ultras, as do my colleagues overseas.
The only people pushing a programme of drinking are the likes of Gatorade.

It is far, far safer to run slightly de-hydrated. Over hydrated will kill you, while dehydrated will not. You’ll simply stop, long before it becomes terminal, whereas you can continue to run and drink more fluids past the point where recovering the runner is any longer possible.
In fact, as Noakes’ research has proven at the Comrades, running dehydrated and slightly overheated isn’t a huge problem for humans, it’s what we’re designed to do.
500ml/ an hour has in the past killed runners.