@stcolin sure it’s tendonitis? Could it be a nerve trapped in the knee? My physio has me do “nerve flossing” to keep that at bay.

Top tips for an ankle sprain?

Almost a year to the day since the last time, I rolled the same one again. Hard enough to graze the skin where that knobbly bone on the outside met the floor.

I was on a mountain and had to walk 8km to get home which I think did it some good.

Last time the physio had me trotting on the beach as soon as I could bear weight, but never really saw it through as we went into Spanish lockdown two weeks later (no outdoor exercise for 3 months). Never really found out if it worked.

Unfortunately people who swear shoes are ‘narrow’ don’t understand it’s the volume that’s the issue, so shoes like Inov8 and VJ sports may be narrow, but they’re still very high volume.

Controversial maybe but if you want people to comment on volume and not width then maybe you should be clear.

Controversial maybe but if you want people to comment on volume and not width then maybe you should be clear.

Agree with this.
I have low volume but wide feet. Volume is not required at all.

Thanks for the advice for Mrs K, she will give some of that a try.

bit of ‘injury’ advice please.

bought some proper running shoes (brooks) after advice from here just after christmas, and tried running again after oooooh many years (im now 56). really looked forward to it, new shoes, new earbuds for a bit of music while i run….
i tried doing what id done before which wasnt a great deal tbh, just less than 4 miles. no prob. went out a few days later, same distance but down then up a hill and my knee started hurting. i guess from the ‘hammer’ as you try to stop yourself from going too fast downhill.
since then its never been right. and to make matters worse, my calf also started playing up. left knee is always uncomfortable but not painful, right calf starts off fine, but then starts ‘making itself known’ after about 15 mins. gradually gets worse and if i carry on too far its really painful. its then tight for a day or so then right as rain after. until the next run etc etc.
it starts off in the calf, but the pain actually then comes from underneath (soleus?). i then noticed my ankle in the bath a few days later and could see a big bruise just yellowing out and a swell around the ankle. i had no idea it was there and had no pain. i can only think that something went in my calf and thats what the bruising was from? pic below, but the bruising isnt where the pain was, thats why i think it was probably worse beforehand…..

left it another week or so then tried another short run this morning to test my legs, still exactly the same.
gentle jog, in fact very gentle, short strides as longer ones hurt more, knee uncomfortable but not painful, nothing from the calf, 15 to 20 mins into it ‘hmmm is that the calf just starting to niggle?’, yes it is, no problem tho, gentle gentle, slowly getting more pronounced so i went back home early before it was really painful. the niggle started in calf area but the ‘uncomfortableness’ developed underneath it again.
tightened up now and im sure itll be fine by tomorrow but just annoying that i cant get going with this. i just want to run and listen to music 😀

talking to mates they say a rule of thumb is if the pain doesnt get worse keep going (ok, thats the knee sorted), but if it does then stop (thats the calf stopping me then).

that about right? any suggestions to help me get going again? should i do lots of small runs to build up the soleus? or totally leave it a few weeks?

thanks

It’s probably your calf just not being happy at you making it do things it’s not used to doing.
I’d be getting on a foam roller and possibly adding in some compression too, to see if that makes a difference. You’re going to have a degree of discomfort as you build up and even when you’re competently going further you can still get issues if you do a harder/longer session.

Each time you rest, the calf is going to revert back to former state in terms of how it will react to a run, so you may want to try and do more frequent shorter efforts than a longer less frequent run. Shorter/longer will all be relevant to what you’re doing now.
I guess this is the whole point of walk to run in that it slowly gets you doing longer stints so your body can adapt.

She said “My feet are very skinny (OH calls them skeleton feet!) and low volume”. That’s fairly clear isn’t it?
My point was that people always focus on the ‘skinny’ (read: narrow) and disregard the ‘low volume’ aspect, which results in inappropriate suggestions like Inov8.

I’ll leave this forum to your bickering and pedantry now.

I’d be tempted to go shorter.
Probably something like 5 minute warm-up, run 15 minutes, 5 minute cool down.
And do that for about the next half dozen sessions before slowly working back up in distance/time. Avoiding that downhill for now too.
4 miles is 6.5km, which is quite some distance to just jump back into, you can afford to build up to that a bit more.
People with decent fitness from other activities like cycling are probably more at risk from joint injury – their cardio fitness writes cheques that knees and ankles can’t afford.

I’ll leave this forum to your bickering and pedantry now.

Wow, if you think this thread has bickering on it you need to read the rest of the forum. This thread is about as sane and helpful as it can be.

I’ll leave this forum to your bickering and pedantry now.

Maybe thats best

@sadexpunk your age is against you… (I am also 56 so share your pain) There is a very helpful video here that someone posted earlier. The swelling would be best treated with ice and its unlikely to be the calf issue (particularly if it is settling after few days) I would suggest lots of calf raises and strengthening exercises, regulalrly through the day

Latest update in my search for the elusive “like a Nike Pegasus 36 but not a Nike Pegasus 36” continues. At this rate, non-essential retail will be back open and I’ll be able to head to the Nike Outlet and raid their shelves.

Anyway, the latest to arrive are a pair of ASICS Novablast (£68 on Amazon).
First impressions were positive, looked great, felt really comfy on the feet, a slight rocker feel, very impressive.
Day 2 of wearing them around the house started to give me a question or 2. The toebox is wide which I like, but HUGE in volume, great for some, less good for me.
Then I lace them up to run in. Normal lacing was giving heel lift before I’ve left the house to a runners knot was used. This helped, but by gosh they had to be done up tight for my foot to feel even slightly secure.
They are very bouncy, not overly stable but are good fun to run in and have loads of energy return. They are also really comfy on the foot, feel like running on clouds, just super soft and compliant, I really liked the feel. But I couldn’t get over the movement of my foot in the shoes, they just didn’t feel secure at all, no matter how I laced them up. I wonder if half a size smaller would work, but 11.5’s seem hard to find.
8 miles later and they’re back in the box and on the way to the post office.
Conclusion is they could be a great shoe for someone with a high volume foot but be prepared to crank the laces up tight. If the next version reduces the volume and sorts the heel lock out I’d buy them without hesitation.

So, next up is some New Balance Fresh Foam 1080v10, on their way in the next day or 2.

Keep your eyes peeled for the next installment where I tell you why Peg 37’s are a poor younger sibling of the 36. I’m sure you can hardly wait…

sadexpunk your age is against you… (I am also 56 so share your pain) There is a very helpful video here that someone posted earlier.

thanks, just watched it, very informative and bears out previous advice on here, namely loum’s….

I’d be tempted to go shorter.
Probably something like 5 minute warm-up, run 15 minutes, 5 minute cool down.
And do that for about the next half dozen sessions before slowly working back up in distance/time. Avoiding that downhill for now too.

and alanf’s…..

so you may want to try and do more frequent shorter efforts than a longer less frequent run. Shorter/longer will all be relevant to what you’re doing now.
I guess this is the whole point of walk to run in that it slowly gets you doing longer stints so your body can adapt.

i’ll definitely do that, when the soleus eases up again. im pleased thats the advice rather than a long rest.

The swelling would be best treated with ice and its unlikely to be the calf issue (particularly if it is settling after few days) I would suggest lots of calf raises and strengthening exercises, regularly through the day

swellings gone now, i didnt even notice it, it looked worse in the photo.
i usually do around 50 single leg calf raises with a bit of weight every other day, so strengthening is sorted. and yes, i wont be going downhill again for a while.

I’d be getting on a foam roller and possibly adding in some compression too, to see if that makes a difference.

ive just got a roller but dont know any exercises, any good ones youd recommend, and for how long?
and what does ‘some compression’ mean?

thanks for your help

People on here must hate you punk….telling you to buy a roller.( I am kidding, they work)

I probably shouldn’t advise what’s good in terms of roller exercises and I generally only do my calves as they are usually the area that gets a bit tight.
I tend to just slowly go up and down across the whole length for maybe no longer than 3 minutes and you’ll know if you are hitting the right spots as your eyes will want to water.
Usually after a hard hill or speed session I’ll do a roller session, and then probably for a couple of days after as well just to keep things in check.
In terms of compression, this is very anecdotal but I tried some recovery compression leggings (they are a specific thing) more out of curiosity then anything hoping they might aid recovery in some way. I was a bit sceptical but went ahead and in my opinion they definitely make a difference. Not in a ” wow my legs feel amazing” way, more of a “my legs feel pretty normal”, but when that’s come after a 20 miler the day before, that’s not a bad thing. Don’t feel you need to have special compression attire though. I’d maybe try something you already have and see if that helps in any way to make your legs fresher. Recovery is a massive thing and often much overlooked.
For context, I’m 46, have been seriously running for about 10 years and have run every day for the last 648 days and probably averaged a 60 mile week over that time.

another useful rehab tool for ankles is one of these or similar:

Kabalo BLUE Stability Disc Wobble Cushion Balance Pad with Free Pump Included!: Amazon.co.uk: Sports & Outdoors

made quite a difference when I mullered my ankle back in january.

People on here must hate you punk….telling you to buy a roller.( I am kidding, they work)

yes ive had a play on it, it can be excruciating in some places (sideways roll on quads) and i have to stop immediately, but i can roll my calves quite easily with no discomfort whatsoever.

What type of roller comes recommended, or, can you recommend a roller please?

I have one already but it’s totally smooth, but quite firm. From how that feels I imagine the knobbly one must be torturous but perhaps they are softer with more give?

Also have a la cross ball which I quite like, good for targeting specific points.

Still new to rolling etc so uncertain how to do it properly or of I’m seeing results from what I’m doing.

just revisiting a post i made a couple of months back when just starting, i mentioned experimenting with 2 apps on 2 different phones for comparison (strava and komoot)

today, strava said id done 4 miles, komoot said 3.7. zooming in on the runs, i can see strava has me all over the place, in fields, in the road, its waaaay more ‘zigzaggy’ than komoot, so not as accurate. that sound normal?

answer was…..

Strava doesn’t measure your distance, your phone does, sounds like one phones GPS is unreliable (fairly common IME).

so ……it looked like one phone had better GPS.

weird thing is, mondays pootle round the village i just used the same phone and opened both apps, thought id compare them that way, so same GPS.

strava logged pretty accurately

however, komoot didnt start logging the run until my furthest point around halfway. i didnt stop or play with the phone in any way, its just a straight line to where it must have started picking GPS up. weird eh?

Interesting gps results. I use a garmin watch then upload to Strava and it seems fairly consistent for most of my runs. Get the odd flutter. I turn of the Russian satellite and just use gps which seems to help. Maybe both apps were a bit processor intensive running together?

I do find that parkruns on twisty courses come up a bit short, probably due to tree cover and tight turns. This bodes well for when Parkrun returns as I’m doing 5k based on when the watch beeps to say it’s finished – the last km is always longer but I don’t think this is down to gps!

I’ve found Altra shoes – like slippers, pain free and fast enough. No more black toes.

@sadexpunk Kudos from Reg Varney. Nice.

One pair of shoes arrived this morning, immediately discounted due to weird bumpy bit under heel which i guess is meant to serve some sort of purpose but just feels like there’s stuff stuck in your shoe! Back to the drawing board

Anyone done MAF training before?
Have been trying it recently and have found that i can run much more frequently than if i was going full tilt.
Am just finding that my running feels horrible as i am trying to stay at our below 140bpm.
If anyone has done it please tell me that the speed and form comes back

There was someone earlier in the thread that was trying it. Seemed positive about it. Can’t remember how far back, sorry.

I’ve been using MAF for around 7 weeks now. I asked here  and his website is very useful. No need for the book I feel.  I started it due to lack of running events and by default my miles were dropping off. Now I MAF run every day with a dog just so I  can cover more distance in a day than by walking. Last night I did 11 miles . I like it because it never really beats me up, the run is just a lot slower.  Yes it feels weird at first, especially almost walking the uphills. I’d say I’m getting used to it now. My plan is to continue with it until Park Run begins again and really open the legs there as a test to see if MAF has added anything. By chance my last few Park Runs this time last year I was recovering from injury so I’m hoping to better those times. Not very scientific I know, but I’m only a recreational runner.  I established my max HR using the protocol from a link on here to the British Cycling website on a borrowed friends indoor training bike and HRM. I think it feels accurate for me.

Bloody lovely run this morning. 10 miles before anyone else woke up, morning sun, and a few hills.

Cheers @lotto going to stick with it for now as like you say i find that i am feeling absolutely fine after a run now.
I guess will see how it goes later in the year.
I think it said that it takes 3 months or so before you see major effects

I’ve not been following MAF religiously but I’ve adopted the ethos in the majority of my training. I’ve found it doesn’t leave me feeling beaten up and able to train more frequently. I think the accumulated volume of mileage resulting from MAF does eventually make everything ‘click’ in terms of finding faster shorter distances feel much easier. I’d recommend speed work and hills if you want speed but if you find MAF works then stick with it. 👍

Bloody great conditions out there today, planned a 6 miler or so but it was so good that we kept adding bits on and ended up at 11. Love it.
The dry and tacky going reminded me that I’m in need of some regular trail shoes once my x-talons get put back in the cupboard for the summer. Does anyone have thoughts on inov8 trailtalon 290 vs roclite 235? Or any variation of the above. Trailtalons would be my gut feel for my local mixed paths and woody rocky singletrack + small sections of roads, however (all being well) I have a long race in the brecon beacons in the summer and I’m wondering if the extra protection (ie. Rockplate) in the roclites would be a benefit? Thoughts and or experiences are most welcome

Tried following MAF in the past.. – Didn”t work.

The thing that people miss about MAF is it isn’t really about the heart rate. it’s about controlling and minimising variables and tracking data so that you have a baseline, and can make adjustments accordingly.

The heart rate in the book is only supposed to be rough guidance and is supposed to be corrected for the individual.

Whilst MAF training pace is supposed to be slow, it is important to understand the context. – Slow is a relative term.

If you look at the detail of the book MAF was developed based on athletes running on a track.

MAF requires an aerobic pace. That means the pace is slow relative to the typical race or training pace of a college athlete who has probably been competing in 400m – 1500m events. People who tend to be quick but lack endurance.

If you are running at a steady pace on a track then there are no accelerations or sudden direction changes, and the surface is perfectly flat. It is relatively easy to keep a constant heart rate. So heart rate is a good reliable indicator of effort

If you are running in the real world there are constant changes in direction, undulating surfaces, gentle slopes etc. This causes effort to varyand your heart rate to increase. – It means that when you limit your pace to achieve the suggested MAF heart rates you will slow down a lot.

My point being that running at MAF heart rate on a track or perfectly flat surface is not what I would call slow at all. It’s quite a hard effort. – (just more of a hard marathon than sprint.) On a track the pace for me at maffetone heart rate was almost identical to that recommended by most other training systems.

But when not on a track, I found myself going very, very, slow when trying to train in accordance with MAF heart rate. – I would end up significantly changing my stride or walking. It wasn’t due to a major lack of fitness. It’s a problem with the way MAF and heart rate monitors work.

Another problem with MAF is that there are alot of variables that affect heart rate other than how hard you are running, e.g. variations in temperature, if you are scared or excited for any reason, when you last ate, caffeine, undulating terrain, etc etc. All less of an issue in a consistent training routine on a track in sunny Florida.

And heart rate monitors rely on a minimum effort to make you sweat. – A problem in a scottish winter, if running slowly. Even when they do work there is a lot of lag, between you slowing down, your heart rate dropping and the display updating.

Note that whilst their training pace may have been slow, Maffetones athletes raced relatively frequently. – That racing trained them to go fast.

I agree with most of Maffetones, training philosophy.But it only works if all of the variables can be strictly controlled.

If you have access to a running track, turbotrainer or treadmill,or are cycling on an obstruction free road, then I can see how Maffetone would work well.

But otherwise I would just aim for most of your running to be at a moderately easy pace.

Yeah I’d agree with your observations and I’ve considered all the variations myself. My dog runs are on three routes. So easy for me to consider variables and analyse accordingly due to the variations. The weather as you observe in Britain is variable, this I cannot control and accept as life. Diet, caffeine etc considerations I have effectively eliminated with running at the same time and on a controlled diet. I feel MAF can be achieved by mortals outside of laboratory conditions in Florida, plenty of testaments to back this up too. If you can make a bastardised MAF program successful for you, does it really matter to the recreational runner that you are not 100% compliant with strict protocol.  If it makes you get out and run, winner winner chicken dinner.

I try to do a similar thing to MAF from the 80/20 running method. I worked out a heart rate when I change to “tempo” and try to stay below that. For me it is around 147-150bpm. After I while I got to feel the change between easy running and working harder so can back of automatically.

My running did change after applying this boundary – this time last year every run was pushing fairly hard and if I was slower on a segment I’d get disappointed. Now I’m happy to cruise along, go longer, and not feel beaten up.

The heart rate obviously varies from day to day depending on fatigue, heat,
Coffee, etc. Some days I can keep it below 140 for a bit, others it hovers around 150 but can feel the same.

The more I did it, the lower the heart rate got for a given effort – that must be good.

I’m probably like most people where I naturally increase the pace on a run until I am working hard. I now consciously slow myself down to keep it easy. I enjoy it as it doesn’t feel like a chore. Of course, you can always do fast bits in the middle, like going for a segment, recover and carry on.

Has anyone heard of or tried the 496 challenge?

Running everyday for a month with day 1 being 1km, day 2 – 2km, working up to 31km on day 31.

I watched this 496 challenge vid of a semi well known adventurer chap called Sean Conway completing the challenge. He made it look easy but the last week is back to back half marathons and more.

Long story short is I’ve decided to give it a bash in March. I’m on day 7 today and all is well………unsurprisingly given up to 7km a day isn’t hugely strenuous. Motivation is high and I’m absolutely buzzing for it, however the furthest I’ve ever run is about 30k so I’m fully expecting to bail before day 31

Wish me luck!

That sounds like a crazy challenge. Should have done it in feb!

Re. Maf, my normal 5k route is about as flat as it can be. But i take the point on hr being more than just running speed. Will keep going with it for now as i think it is good base work and will do some other faster runs too

Has anyone heard of or tried the 496 challenge?

No, but that sounds right up my street. Might have a crack at that.

Today’s discovery is that the trail aren’t quite as dry round here as I hoped. And that wearing white road shoes was a really bad idea…

What next for me? Since Dec I’ve got my 5k time down from 28.17 (first 5k since secondary school – very long time ago ha) to 21.20 which I’m happy with. Where do I go from here? Try to go faster? Or start doing longer runs?

Also, any recommendations for a thin hoodie to run in? I already have a decent shell for wet days but want something that breathes a bit better

That’s a really good time and improvement.
Next obvious challenge is to go under 20. Probably as much work as you’ve already done. But the bigger question is what do you want to do? Distance, speed or both…
I find longer runs good for the head, feels like there’s more time, less rush, and can settle into enjoying them more without pressure to be targeting something.
And something lightweight with vents

Vanilla, very impressive. I’d likely be pushing to 10k. 5k is great as a quick thrash but adding a bit of distance opens up the area you can run in, what you can see and gives you more time to think.

Sub-20 5k is also worth a look, particularly as parkrun returns in June.

A sub 20 5k is a great target but depends what you want from it. It became a bit of an obsession with me – 26:30 parkrun October 2019 and I managed to do it last weekend. There was no reason for it other than I got it into my brain as a target, but it could have been anything.

How much faster do you think you can go? Finding another 16 seconds a km sounds easy enough, but when you’re already in a world of agony it’s not so simple. Hill reps, intervals and slow runs should do it.
Were your splits even? How did you feel at the end?

Longer runs are a good challenge as you get older as speed obviously goes down. Train for an ultra in the autumn?

First 10k ever run in my life today after starting running mid January when the pools closed, fairly slow but felt fine apart from my feet which now have blisters.