However, most people WANT to eat meat and that is the hard bit to get over

I’ve mused over not eating meat for as long as I can remember, but have never made any actual attempt to do so, let alone a serious one. Quite odd thinking about it, but you do what you’ve always done, and anything outside of that can seem a scary place.

Then I watched the Game Changes, and Forks over Knives. Which provoked enough thought to actually say, you know what, I’m just going to give it a try…

The weirdest thing to me, is that it’s taken no effort. I’ve not missed anything or felt like I’m missing out. I’ve not even thought about it much. Everything is as it was.

I’ll probably continue to eat meat occasionally, maybe once a week, once a month, who knows…

But from someone who ate meat with almost every meal, even the concept of meat-free Mondays brought me out in a sweat. It seems I feared the idea that I WANTED to eat meat. Yet, the reality is I’m actually not all that bothered. It’s been eye-opening.

Fantastically apt username sir! 🙂

I did find it interesting but always good to read/look at other stuff.
I think if you are on a plant based diet you just got too be so MUCH more on the ball with what you need to eat etc

Joe Rogan talked about it with chris kresser, it is long, maybe not SFW

Also https://tacticmethod.com/the-game-changers-scientific-review-and-references/

“There are a handful of studies included in this film that are pilot studies consisting of a very small collection of test subjects and most of the results have not been duplicated. These studies almost all conclude with something along the lines of “further investigation is needed”. The filmmakers leave this out.”

I gained weight on a plant based diet.

Well, respect for that! 🙂 I need to make some lifestyle changes – a veggie diet seems like a good one for many reasons.

Carry on with the research but it is very clear that your body can be fueled without eating meat so nobody NEEDS to eat meat. However, most people WANT to eat meat and that is the hard bit to get over.

Us human beings are remarkably adaptable. We are essentially nature’s apex omnivores. We can readily survive on a primarily meat-based diet, or a primarily plant-based diet, or anywhere in between. And in the modern Western world we’re fortunate enough to have the luxury of choice here.

I’d never preach diet to anyone, but the cold hard fact is that what we “normally” eat is purely cultural. Whether it’s meat with every meal; whether that meat is lamb rather than horse, dog or rat; or whether we sack all that off and live on rice, leaves and soy sauce. Far too few people never give it any thought, and a drum I’ve been banging at work for like 15 years now is that “we’ve always done it this way” is the worst reason to do anything.

Take a moment to think about what you’re eating, whether you want to, and whether you have to. Then you can be confident and proud of your decision whether ultimately that’s a raw food diet or eating kittens. Anything else is (ho ho!) gravy.

Many arguments for veganism aren’t against eating meat, they are against inappropriate, inhumane and environmentally unfriendly practices.

It’s gotten confusing. I only know this because other half is vegan and would probably be ignorant otherwise (to my shame) – but ‘veganism’ (strictly speaking) is akin to ‘humanism’ ie it’s a philosophy and ethical lifestyle choice (including diet, obviously).

Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

The Joe Rogans of the world have shifted the focus to a different thing, ie food choice, ie. ‘vegan diet, ie ‘plant-based’, ie ‘vegan food’ – by shifting the argument away from the meaning of veganism to one of discussing plants vs meat, athletic performance arguments and health deficiencies etc. The internet can very quickly and effectively change the meaning of words. See also the recent argument over the term ‘jungle drums’. Or not

Many can disagree all day over the definition/meaning of ‘cyclist’ or ‘motorbike’. Prevalence of the internet now as maybe our primary means of societal/group communication it sometimes feels as if language itself became so excessively fluid that ’nothing’ means ’anything’ until later today when it means ‘something’ until tomorrow.

I gained weight on a plant based diet.

Me too, but because I have an unhealthy mind that seeks ‘comfort’ in carbs and sugar. I don’t blame the veg, I was getting this big on doner kebabs and beefburgers. Quit the kebabs and burgers, upped the chips and biscuits. Turning it around recently by cooking more (still economical) healthy and balanced meals from scratch. Just hope not too late as my immediate family recently diagnosed with diabetes. (Also biscuits, bread and taters-fiends)

even the concept of meat-free Mondays brought me out in a sweat

I could, OTOH, imagine an Inuit worrying like that 😅

Great post Cougar.

I gained weight on a plant based diet.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I’m guessing that this was just “plant-based” and not “whole-food plant-based”, the later of which being what The Game Changers is promoting (although the distinction could definitely be made clearer in the film). Replacing processed meat with processed vegan food isn’t going to bring many benefits, nor is including loads of plant-based oils in your diet.

Another documentary worth a watch is ‘Diet Fiction’. This is focussed on the health aspects of a plant-based whole-food diet. It’s more balanced than some, acknowledging that there’s nothing wrong with incorporating a small amount of non-processed meat and dairy in your diet. It is also much clearer than many documentaries in making the distinction between veganism and a following a whole-food plant-based diet. Many of the experts interviewed will be familiar to anyone who has watched a number of these documentaries (and the narrator/director/filmmaker is the same as ‘Food Choices’) – it’s up to you and your own research as to whether or not you think they are trustworthy or just promoting their own agenda.

Great post Cougar.

Why thank you. (-:

Really, there’s way too much ****ery (on both sides of the argument) about other people’s dietary choices, from the largely fictitious “preachy vegans” to the defensive omnivores who pop up hilariously going “yes but bacon” every time there’s a veggie thread. Why should anyone care what someone else eats? One thing I’ll give the vegans in their favour though, at least they’ve given it some thought.

A couple of years back, I went out dahn sarf for a curry with my then-team from work. Halfway through the meal, my boss suddenly went, “where’s your meat?!” I told him I was veggie, and it was like I’d just announced that I was shagging his 15-year old daughter. I was cross-examined by the entire table for like the next half hour, meanwhile I was sitting there just wanting to eat my vegetable madras in peace. Why should they care, what business is it of theirs?

I get that some people like to eat meat, whether that’s by choice or simply by cultural default. But with every meal? That I just don’t get. It’s essentially just habit, right? Someone started a thread not so long ago asking about being vegan for a day. One day! I mean, as a Northern lad I like chips a lot, but I wouldn’t think a spag bol was incomplete without them. The notion that I’d have looked at my boss that night and gone “where’s your peas?!” would just be nonsensical.

People are odd.

incorporating a small amount of non-processed meat and dairy

Quick question, if you don’t mind? How would you define “processed” (and non-) in this context?

I see a lot of talk (and vilification) of “heavily processed” foods, by which I take to mean things like ready meals laden with salt and sugar. But isn’t all meat pretty much “processed” by definition? Even if you buy say high quality lamb, it’s hardly still warm from the sheep. Hacking it into lumps and wrapping it in polystyrene and cling film is a process, n’est-ce pas?

What’s “non-processed” dairy? Raw unpasteurised milk? You don’t just squirt butter and cheese directly out of a cow.

Genuine question, where do you draw the line here? At what point does it become good / bad?

I watched Game changers recently, I felt it was a very male attempt at converting males to veganism. Overtly so, it’ll make you strong, fast, give you more erections. It felt a bit like a party political broadcast on behalf of someone.

Interesting, in some respects, but hardly the be all and end all of the debate.

For reference I’m following it up with the Masterclass series on BBQ by Adam Franklin, got to have some balance in life!

Quick question, if you don’t mind? How would you define “processed” (and non-) in this context?

Bad choice of words on my part. Maybe minimally-processed would have been a better description. Dairy, as you rightly point out, is fairly heavily processed but again the (my) general rule would be the less processing the better. So milk is better than butter/cheese, a pork fillet is better than bacon/sausages, etc.

Of course, butchering and packaging is a ‘process’ but it’s not changing the nutritional quality of the product, which is what we’re really talking about here. A carrot doesn’t stop being a whole-food if it comes in a plastic bag, for example.

This chart gives a good summary of the differences between vegan, plant-based, and plant-based whole-food diets. Personally, I’m vegan but also try to limit oils and highly-processed foods. Removing oil from my diet is the part that I find the hardest, but I try to use as little as possible.

Removing oil from my diet is the part that I find the hardest, but I try to use as little as possible.

Oil/fat is a pretty essential part of your diet, why are you trying to eliminate it?

 We are essentially nature’s apex omnivores

That would probably be bears tbh. Polar bears, for instance can eat seal liver at a quantity that would kill most other animals, including us. I will say also that an entirely meat diet will probably kill you eventually (but will make you blind and deaf beforehand) a solely plant based diet won’t.

(my) general rule would be the less processing the better.

Right, that makes more sense. I’m not sure as it’s as simple as “processing = bad” though. I mean, the very act of preparing a meal is “processing.” Rather, it depends how you “process” something, which is kinda what I was getting at in my previous post.

Eg, most people would say orange juice is good for you but it’s basically just sugared water, you might as well drink Irn Bru. But is steak mince inherently worse than steak because it’s been processed into little bits?

This chart gives a good summary of the differences between vegan, plant-based, and plant-based whole-food diets.

I’ve only skim-read that article but I haven’t read so much quackery in one place for some time. Isn’t Klaper the bloke who was telling people that his diets would cure cancer or am I thinking of someone else? I’ll bet good money he’s got a few books to sell in any case.

Oil/fat is a pretty essential part of your diet, why are you trying to eliminate it?

From that article, they’re suggesting for example if you want olive oil, eat olives instead. /shrug

That would probably be bears tbh. Polar bears, for instance can eat seal liver at a quantity that would kill most other animals, including us. I will say also that an entirely meat diet will probably kill you eventually (but will make you blind and deaf beforehand) a solely plant based diet won’t.

That’s the thing. It’s been long understood that a balanced diet is healthiest, up until recent years where people like Gillian McKeith could make lots of money out of claiming otherwise. With the proliferation these days of a huge variety of foods, people in the developed world are living longer than ever before. Sure, that might be a spurious correlation and other factors like better medicines are surely contributors also, but if there wasn’t some correlation we’d all be dropping like flies. And yes, coronary disease is still a #1 killer but I expect that’s in no small way due to a lack of portion control and other lifestyle choices. My point, really, was that we are quite remarkably adaptable creatures when it comes to food.

A restrictive diet such as veganism can be as healthy as being an omnivore, and in the cases of omnivores living off a diet of KFC and Monster Munch washed down with a gallon of wifebeater it’s not difficult to be more healthy than that sort of regime, but as soon as you start cutting out great swathes of food groups you have to be just a little bit careful.

Everything in moderation, and you’ll be reet. Trust me, I have the same qualifications as Ms McKeith.

Oil/fat is a pretty essential part of your diet, why are you trying to eliminate it?

It’s not about removing fat from the diet. A large proportion of my calories still come from fat. It’s about focussing on nutrient-dense foods.

I’ve only skim-read that article but I haven’t read so much quackery in one place for some time. Isn’t Klaper the bloke who was telling people that his diets would cure cancer or am I thinking of someone else? I’ll bet good money he’s got a few books to sell in any case.

Agreed. I meant to link to just the chart, which (despite its source) gives a good overview of the distinction between diets.

Eg, most people would say orange juice is good for you but it’s basically just sugared water, you might as well drink Irn Bru. But is steak mince inherently worse than steak because it’s been processed into little bits?

Except at least orange juice contains vitamins and fibre vs. sugared water. And no, I don’t consider minced steak to be any worse than steak.

Most of the fibre in an orange is in the pulp. I don’t know offhand how much is in a glass of (smooth) OJ but it’ll be way less than the fruit itself. (Ie, I was actually agreeing with you here.)

Watched this over the weekend. Interesting stuff. Had heard a bit about it but was very surprised by how many high-profile people were on-board (Arnie, Djokovic, Hamilton, etc). I’ve been having one or two meat-free days a week for a while now but this has prompted me to try being mostly veggie for a bit and maybe have only one or two meat days (or meals!) a week instead. (He says with a sausage casserole bubbling away in the slow cooker 😂)

I’ve messed around with vegetarianism for years, but never really committed. The lure of convenient meat was too strong.

I was going through one of my contemplative phases when I watched this, on the Sunday after it aired, and haven’t eaten meat since.

I know there are major problems with the documentary, but there was enough to make me commit, and I haven’t missed meat even a tiny little bit.

On the plus side, the symptoms of my ulcerative colitis are all gone. And as I also cut out cows milk, surprisingly so has my allergy to our dog.