Thinking of flying to J’Burg and having a look about South Africa for our summer holiday – is that a good idea? What should we go and do and see? 🙂

Beautiful place to visit – from what I hear from my Afrikaan friend … not a good place to live.

Had great times in Durban and country around there and Cape Town. Cheap, no jet lag, good biking, safari etc. Not sure I’d go to Joburg, got a bit of a more edgy rep. Cape Town on the other hand, great place.

Family have lived in Joburg, Cape Town and Durban over the last 40 years.

I’d like to visit, but I’d be very careful where I went, and I definitely wouldn’t want to live there.

Gone to joburg with work 3 or 4 times. It’s ok. Some genuinely nice people. Really good food and wine.

I was paying I’d go to Cape Town area, more touristy, nicer scenery. Plus wait and go in our winter obvs.

Never personally experienced anything dodgy, everyone’s got nasty stories, but there are other places I’d be more worried about.

South African here. Best place in the world. Itinerary : Fly to Joburg. Taxi to Four seasons. Have cocktails overlooking Zoo lake. Next day fly or drive to Nelspruit. Stay in Beetleloop guesthouse. Get some locals for a bike ride. Ask proprietor. Go for walk in national Garden. Book trip to Kruger National park(2hour drive) See big five. Not a given. Back to Joburg. Stay another night in a nice hotel for a really reasonable price. Fly to Cape Town. Two days two nights in Cape Town.Do some bike tours.do some wine farms and road cycling around the peninsula. Go to Stellenbosch. Stay two nights. Do some morewine farms. Explore further away. Decide inland or coastal. Inland:Work your way around Robertson, Worcester Oudtshoorn. Coast: Take the N2 and stop on the mountain at Elgin for a break after Sir Lowrys Pass. Then stay in Hermanus at the Marine. Some bike loops which are fun. Next day drive through the Overberg. Make way to George or Knysna. On the way stop at Swellendam, Rivers

Dale and for a big Sunday lunch Albertinia. Go to Plettenberg Bay. Feel like a million dollars. KEEP GOING! 😁

Echoing the above, amazing place to visit, probably wouldn’t want to live there.

I’ve been to both ends, Capetown approx 20 years ago for a fortnight (did a lot of travelling around the area), and Joburg (again did a lot of travelling round) for a fortnight too.

Capetown and surrounding area is more touristy, in as much of a way that a country with such inherent political and social issues can be. Joburg isn’t! Joburg is a real cultural shock in many ways, but once you’re out of Joburg itself, most of the surrounding area is very much like any other big conurbation the world over, but with a wealth of things to do and see. SA is an incredible country, so much history (and most of it quite violent and bloody!), so much corruption, so many lessons for everyone to learn from (shame they’re not so good at learning from their own lessons!). In the 4 weeks I’ve spent there in total, I never met anything but incredibly friendly and welcoming people, however… The week before me and my ex GF went to visit her Dad (he lives in Benoni, just outside of Joburg, near the airport), their local corner shop was held up at gunpoint for all of the cash in the till (about £50 max), and once the robbers had taken the money, they shot and killed the shop owner anyway… And these stories aren’t few and far between! EVERYBODY in and around Joburg knows people who have been killed by armed gunmen, more so than we all know someone who has been affected by Cancer!

Anyway…

If you’re going… The Western Cape and the Garden route are stunning. It’s quite an established tourist route, so you shouldn’t come across any real problems, and it’s genuinely one of the most beautiful places on earth! I travelled all over the area in the 2 weeks I was there with mates 20 years ago, would love to go back one day!

As for Joburg and surrounding areas… Well the obvious thing to do is to get a few days in the Kruger Park on a Safari…Yes, it’s about 300 odd miles away, but that’s only a 4hr drive out there to be fair. We did 3 nights and 3 1/2 days Safari in the Kruger, staying in 4* accommodation with amazing guides every day, for about £300 each (the Rand was at 24 to the £ back then though, might not be the same now), and it was honestly the most amazing experience of my life! Take a DSLR with a decent zoom lens, and take lots of snaps! As for Joburg, well we did a few bits in and around the area, but the thing that will stay with me the longest was the Mandela Tour and trip to Soweto. We spent a full day (picked up from our accommodation about 8am, dropped off at 6pm!) visiting various historical landmarks including the prison where Mandela was held for years prior to being sent to Robben Island, a trip up the Telkom tower so we could look out over the entire of Joburg and the surrounding area, a trip into Soweto and to see the house where Mandela lived and the Apartheid museum… I guess you need to be into culture and history like I am, but it’s worth it. As for other things to do… Well Sun City, about 3hrs drive North West of Joburg, is fun in a “mini Las Vegas” kinda way. Spent one night there, and most of 2 days, enjoyed the water park, had the best steak I’ve ever eaten in one of the many restaurants there, didn’t bother going gambling to be fair, wasn’t bothered by that. Also did a trip out to the Cullinan Diamond Mine, which was an eye opener! A 21st century operation, with 18th century values… They have snipers in lookout posts trained to shoot to kill, should they see any employees or visitors attempting to steal any Diamonds from the mine!!!

If you’ve got any more specific questions, by all means drop me a message, I’ll be happy to share more info if I can.

Every South African I’ve met has told me a tale that’s put me off going there.

I’ve not met that many but I’m never going.

Had one of my best meals ever in Stellenbosch at a vineyard called Tokara. Wonderful place. Did the garden route for 10 days and flew out of Port Elizabeth. Some great places to stay on the coast.

Ive been a few times. Only adds up to a few months mind. Lovely place and great people. Best trip was overland from Capetown thru the wine region then up thru Namibia. But I wouldnt choose to go back to Joburgh.

Quick list of my favoured tourist spots after a couple of trips and with family connections to Cape Town for many years….

Kirstenbosch Gardens
Table Mountain
Simon’s Town/Boulders Beach
Orchard Tea Rooms and Farm Shop on N2 for breakfast
The strip of coast along towards Mossel Bay/Knysna is lovely
Hermanus to see southern right whales (if going at right time of year)
V and A waterfront in Cape Town (aquarium is decent if you get a wet day)
Spier – raptor rescue place
Cape Point if you have time but not a lot there

First time round we had a couple of days in the Sederburgh. Very peaceful apart from the sodding guinea fowl.

We did stray into a couple of mildly uncomfortable places. Generally people are pretty ok but you do need to keep your brain in gear if you’re stopped somewhere less affluent in an urban/suburban area.

Be prepared to see abject poverty even in somewhere fairly well developed like Cape Town.

Beautiful country. I loved it but it’s really got some very serious political and other problems.

You might like Pondoland. I only spent time there under the brutality of the apartheid regime so no advice, Jo’burg was not a memorable city. Botswana felt a lot safer.

Anyone got any recommendations for who to use for a spot of mountain biking around Table Mountain? Looks like ill be there next weekend

Jamie at Cape Velo. Used him a fair few times, really nice bloke, can supply road, gravel and mtbs.

My folks won a luxury holiday to south africa a couple of years ago, and ended up doing the garden route and a bit of sight seeing in Capetown and surrounds. It was Exodus they went with.

This was their holiday idea of hell. The type of holiday they would never in a million years have considered doing for all kinds of reasons if it wasn’t free, and even then they considered not going.

They actually had a pretty good time. This is really high praise indeed because normally in my family we look forward to my parent’s entertaining tales of holiday woe. We think they seek out sources of frustration (crap hotels, crap hire cars etc) so they have something to chew on rather than turn one each other.

An old girlfriend was South African, they lived near Jo’burg

The whole family moved to the UK because how bad Jo’burg was and it was spreading out of the city to the suburbs, tales of their friends being car jacked and killed on different occasions

Having to always keep an eye out for anything dangerous about to happen, didn’t dare use their phones in public etc…. she said it was horrible place to live but enjoyed going back for holidays as it was a nice place apart from the violence

I did a three week cycling trip about 15years ago. Still to this day one of the best holidays I have ever done.

Fabulous country to visit, I flew into Cape Town and cycled the garden route and visited a lot of the big vineyards.

One of my best mates should be landing sometime soon (maybe already has).
He just spent 7+ months in Africa with a lot of that in ZA as they have family there.
He seems to have loved it .. hopefully we will actually catch-up in person this week.

Every saffa I know loves to tell you what a wonderful country SA is, yet none of them want to live there… They’ve all emigrated.

The GF’s aunt has lived there for 25 years and are now looking to return.

alpin

Member
Every saffa I know loves to tell you what a wonderful country SA is, yet none of them want to live there… They’ve all emigrated.

Yep thats the crux. We have friends from Stellenbosch … and the pictures we have seen are amazing; absolutely stunningly beautiful place to live, and these friends are from wealthy land owning families there. However, they were (recently got permission to stay) desperate to stay in the UK .. up the run down South Wales valleys actually!!
South Africa is not a good place for whites or Afrikaners at the moment; the young and educated have been leaving in droves the last few years.

My ex FIL lives in Johannesburg. He was a retired policeman.
Every house has barbed wire around the top of the 8 foot garden walls. All the windows on the houses are covered in iron bars. Inside the house every bedroom and hallway has an iron gate as a secondary door to keep people out. I had never seen anything like it, it felt like living in a prison.
Everyone owned dogs to protect their house, but according to my FIL rat poisoned steaks would get thrown over the garden walls to take the dogs out, after which the assailants would break into the property, steal what they could, and rape any woman found inside at the time.

Another recommendation for Cape Town: stay at the Cape Dutch style De Noordhoek hotel. It’s part of a farm village complex with bars, cafes, shops and restaurants and right at the foot of the infamous Chapman’s Peak, which is the biggest climb on the Cape Argus Cycle route. Hire a bike and enjoy it. De Noordhoek is quaint, clean, affordable and in a great location for exploring the Cape.

On emigration, yes, it’s true; there are many young professional South Africans working in London and anywhere but SA. If you are a white male your chances of employment are very slim. My agent has just emigrated to New Zealand with her hubby and kids and won’t be going back. They are a well-educated family so that’s four more brains that have left and the calibre of the colleagues she left behind isn’t great.

I’ve popped down for the weekend a couple of times for windsurfing events and liked what I experienced. The awareness of what existed outside my little bubble took the edge of it to a degree. I am a shallow **** though.

GF’s aunt had her dog poisoned a few months back. No break-in, though.

My great uncle was out there for years due to his health. His place was like Fort Knox.

My cousin is married to a saffa. Arrogant wot not.

Also, there generally seems to be an undercurrent of racist attitudes.

Which reminds me…..

Been several times to the Western Cape and to Kruger NP. Never bothered with Johannesburg because I don’t like cities, but we will go at some point to see the apartheid museum and possibly Cradle of Humankind. SA is the most affordable place to do a safari in a true wild ecosystem (self drive in Kruger NP) and August is an excellent time of year, see the thread: https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-safaris-then-tell-me-about-them-please/

As a tourist, in the touristy parts of the country (or really most of the rural and not industrialized parts) it has incredible natural beauty, still has very wild parts with incredible wildlife, and very friendly people. Penguins, whale watching, mountains, wine and food, sea views, pristine and isolated white sand beaches, and iconic and less-well-known African wildlife, it is glorious.

It also has a huge disparity of wealth that unfortunately the last n years of Government haven’t dealt with. Yes crime is an issue, particularly if you wandered into a rough township, but why would you do that? There is still (understandably) huge social disconnect because of apartheid. The Western Cape is the most ‘multi-cultural’ and progressive area – politically they vote on policies. Most SA’ers I have met outside of SA are products of apartheid. White Afrikaners who emigrated because the place is ‘going to the dogs’ compare life now to when their Government and police force brutally kept the blacks under control by destroying their houses, forcibly removing them into squalor, ensuring their education told them repeatedly they were worth less than white people, and then beat and murdered blacks on a whim. But for the whites, life was good. There is a reason SA’ers tend to emigrate to Australia. Not every white person agreed with apartheid of course and they too were persecuted by the regime. You can’t really have that level of state control and not have repercussions that last decades, and unfortunately the Governments since have just not dealt with the social inequality that was forced upon the majority of the population. I do find the prison-like houses and racist guard dogs a very odd thing and can’t imagine feeling that afraid of everything and everyone – the attitude is very like the US Americans ‘needing’ to carry firearms to make themselves ‘feel’ safe – when actually they are no safer. You can’t have the disparity of wealth that exists in SA without having people aggrieved or persuaded by the promise of untold riches who will turn to violent crime.

I personally think spending my $$ on reputable and ethical tourist businesses and the national parks / conservation system is preferable to not going there. I really have never felt unsafe. I apply the same street-smarts in Cape Town as I would in any city anywhere in the world and I believe the chances of me being robbed or threatened are about the same as in a UK city.

I wander around central Cape Town carrying a laptop bag and have never felt threatened or even the centre of unwelcome attention. The worst assault I’ve suffered was when some bloated land whale in a meeting at Woolworth’s head office, busy texting during my presentation, suddenly stopped texting, looked up and sneezed violently twice in my face showering me with spray. Next morning I awoke with a sore throat, the last thing you need on a business trip.

Not sure about Joburg, but we visited Cape Town in Oct/Nov and were a bit shocked by all the electric fencing etc. Hermanus was less security conscious and then a few nights in Franschhoek, which had hardly any security. We then flew to Durban and onto Thula Thula game reserve in Zulu country, before flying home via Joburg.

We didn’t have any ‘moments’, but you are certainly made very aware not to make any assumptions and to take the ‘safe’ option wherever you are.

Watched Louis Theroux ‘Law and Disorder in Johannesburg’ the other night. My God do I never want to go there. Good watch though.

I apply the same street-smarts in Cape Town as I would in any city anywhere in the world and I believe the chances of me being robbed or threatened are about the same as in a UK city.

I doubt that very much given the crime stats

I have family there. They used to live in Joburg now in a gated community outside it. Armed guards, patrol dogs, never leave home without a gun or an armed guard

TJ Joburg and Cape Town are completely different.

Rockape, not surprised you felt happy in Franschhoek, the place is dripping in money!!

Amazing place ..had a 3 week holiday as our belated honeymoon with my ex wife 38 years ago when I was 24 years old ..stayed one night with friends on the outskirts of Jo/burg before the four of us toured the country ..
Things have changed somewhat in the intervening period ..the first thing that happened within an hour of dropping our bags off was that Chris had me to a gun club where he wanted to make sure that I could handle his handgun should the need arise..
We headed north first up to the Northern Transvaal and Kruger ..
Unbelievable amounts of wildlife spotted ..and a close encounter with a herd of elephants the big daddy of the herd was none too impressed with us (we drove around without guides in a VW Golf )..spotted just about everything we wanted to see except a leopard ..
Then headed down country to Cape Town taking in caves & ostrich farms among other things along the way..” survived the cable car up Table Mountain”and still have the t-shirt to prove it ..
Headed up the Garden route towards Durban but had to cut things short when we ran out of time and made a dash back towards Jo/burg for our flight home ..
Too many great memories to recount them all here ..but just go ..its a truly beautiful country ..

SA is an amazing country but don’t make the mistake of thinking that crime in SA is the same as crime in the UK. In the cities or in the country.

No it’s very true crime in SA is far worse than crime in the UK, particularly violent crime. But for a tourist walking in or visiting touristy areas, you have to see the stats in that context. When there was a rise in street theft / muggings in Cape Town CBD and one tourist was mugged on Table Mountain there was a huge push by the Police and National Parks to have more officers on the street, guided group walks etc. The authorities realise how important tourism is. What I am saying is you generally don’t feel unsafe in tourist areas; but I don’t walk around at night (except the V&A waterfront), don’t visit a cash point alone, and am aware of the latest scams. There is a possibility I’ll be mugged for my phone. It is far more likely I’ll be in a traffic incident when driving and so you do have to be wary (and again I don’t drive at night and know what routes I am taking).

Yes regarding the tourist areas, we did the 2.5 mile cliff walk in Hermanus, there and back….spectacular walk, spotting Whales along the way. I was shocked to see three Security guys along the route with walkie-talkies, sitting there.

It was just a bit surreal, when we hadn’t seen any likely threats, but then I suppose there may have been issues there in the past and the authorities want to ensure there is no bad press. We booked a restaurant 300m from our guest house in Capetown and were advised to get a taxi home. We did, but was looking carefully for any ‘threats’ on the way back and it was all quiet and peaceful.

I briefly lived in Cape Town during the 1980s when it was a f***ed up mess mainly because a large swathe of the non-white population were turfed out of their homes and left to fend for themselves in the Cape Flats area, which is basically a desert. We had segregated train carriages, beaches, schools etc, that sort of thing. If you haven’t read Tom Sharpe’s first two novels, then I recommend them as a window into the mindset of the time.

I remember thinking that the topography would lend itself to mountain bikes, one day I may go back for a visit and a pootle.