There are good teachers and there are free loaders …

Put it this way if you pay nearly £4K per term to attend the school and the teachers (few of them) are not up to scratch (no, the kids are really good kids who really want to learn), then the school really needs to get rid of those lazy no good maggots. I mean the class size is only 15 and the teachers cannot even deliver a coherent lesson … Jesus (in Spanish) … they should simply get out of the profession to lessen the damage to the future generation. Go somewhere else where the damage is minimum …

On the other hand good teachers are themselves worth their weight in gold. These are the teachers who are patience and with very good knowledge of the subject(s) they teach. In my view these teachers should be paid or rewarded handsomely i.e. 50% more at least, and should be well look after by not destroying their motivation to teach.

Not everyone can be a good teacher and some are just there because they have the qualifications but the heart is not there.

However, parents are to be blamed too at times …

Maggots! You find them everywhere. 🙄

longest post ever

So the complaints from teachers appears to be that they are underpaid (more so every year in real terms), don’t get bonuses, pensions are getting cut and they work long hours.

I don’t see many stating its a job pretty much for life, regardless of ability (and from personal and anecdotal evidence from teacher mates/family there appear to be some shite teachers around). No mention of the 16 odd weeks holiday I notice either.

A better question would be how many of the underpaid teachers would be on significaly higher wages in the Private Sector. I know a number friends who work as teachers, some good, some i would actively intervene if my child was going to be tought by them. None were remarkable at uni (one never went to uni) and fell into teaching as a job because they werent accepted on any other graduate scheme. I went into private services having obtained better grades, busted my balls and am on a very similar salary to lots of them. Only difference i might get a 4k bonus if things go well, but more than likely i’ll be made redundant shortly after. Oh and yeah my pension sucks as well.

So to summarise, some teachers (the bad ones) are over paid whilst the good ones may be getting slightly underpaid for their worth. (Althouth my mates a head of maths, hes obviously doing well and gets paid 50k plus, the same as a senior manager at the place I work so not a tippence), If they want bonuses they should accept the performance management that goes with that culture, and on the flip side the far far higher number of redundencies due to letting the poor performers go.

You could obviously also try to find a different vocation with the fantastic skills you have, good luck finding one paying as much…

edit – Lets not compare the salaries of a teacher with those at the top of banks, lawfirms, the medical professions etc. Lets compare them with the junior and middle management level roles in the private sector as that is undoubtably where the vast majority would be.

How “undoubtedly”?

Massively distorted – businesses (sic) being kept alive that under most normal circumstances would have gone bust => highly uncompetitive market, oligopolies (loosely defined) etc.
But a masterpiece in devising a system that transfers money from (largely) low income segments of the population to a very small subsegment and, in the wonderful multicultural society that we are, to people from multiple countries and races….which in most normal circumstances would lead to uproar. But since its such a national treasure the absurdity is allowed to continue. Pity that so many people are drawn in by it all.
But at least there is freedom of choice if not a free market!

Not sure if you’re talking about football or state education.

On the pay issue, it’s true it’s a free market. The best teachers soon realise that they could earn a lot more with less stress and no threat of violence doing something else, and leave the profession. Would I have been able to stop working at 42 if I’d continued to teach in the UK? No way. Would I have been physically aggressed and had my car burnt out on the car park? Possibly/probably, it happened.

For many teachers it’s a vocation like being a doctor should be, and pay isn’t the issue. For others it’s a life style and financial choice. Many teachers of my generation ended up in the job because the training was free (profitable if your PGCE included maths or science) and the starting pay was quite attractive. A few years of teaching on the CV and simply being older opened up a host of better paid jobs, and the best teachers left. They didn’t just go to better paid jobs, a dynamic teaching couple I knew left to start a climbing equipment business.

I would argue that UK teachers weren’t/aren’t paid enough because the best of them left the profession years ago.

In France I’ve noted that a good number of teachers enter the profession having already made it in life and wanting a second lower-key career. My wife’s colleagues include a fighter pilot, an engineer, a civil servant, an aerobics teacher, a business woman; the best, by choice. But then in France the rest of the population doesn’t spend at least half an hour of any social evening slagging off teachers.

So anyway does anyone know how pay compares in private schools. I have friends who have summed it up as “more pay, less shit” and the pension provision is often the same. So are we overpaid? Given shortages in my subject and others I’d suggest no but comparison with the all knowing private sector seems the only way to find out.

I only consider professions to be divinity, medicine and law, anything else is simply labelling themselves a profession to gain greater credibility.

Well then, that’s why Finland is at the top – if your logic is applied to state education in the UK. (In Finland, from what I gather, teachers are all post-grad before entry into the profession, have a 1:1 non-contact to teaching ration and are held in high esteem.)

“more pay, less shit”

I’d say more pay (circa 10%), different shit. I don’t get abused half as much as a I used to but the pressure for performance is slightly higher and the days are a lot longer. 6 Day week, probably half a dozen Sundays a year too. On average I reckon I am on site around 15-20hrs a week more now than when in the maintained sector (but I bring little home now whilst I used to before – simply because in term time now I’m mainly at home only to eat and sleep during the week). But then I get 4 weeks more holiday – swings and roundabouts.

So longer hours but more holidays and 10% more pay so it would seem we are underpaid? Can we close the thread now please.

Just for the record, as far as I’m concerned I don’t have an issue with the salaries received by teachers. I did a good number of jobs prior to becoming one, some good and so not so, and I personally think teachers get a relatively fair deal.

My issue is with the teacher-bashing. Try the job, see how challenging it can be, and then comment. There is a fundamental lack of understanding by parents as to the complexity of the role, and the constant ‘shifting sands’ that come with it through policy change.

Being an Education Advisor is far more beneficial to my health…! 😉

So longer hours but more holidays and 10% more pay so it would seem we are underpaid?

I’d say in relation to the private school system, the maintained sector pay is verging on about right to slightly underpaid. It was my experience that in the maintained sector there were plenty of folks “burning out” because of the stress – here there about the same number burning out but because they can’t handle the hours any more and keep their marriage/family life going. The divorce rate is amazing!

Overall though – taking into account the leave periods, the pension and the salary as a total package it’s a fair deal.

Pay £ Pay £

Dont you go into teaching as a calling? A passion to nurture and develop young minds?

The primary focus from you and your unions seems to be pay and conditions NOT standards.

6th? Is that all?

But then in France the rest of the population doesn’t spend at least half an hour of any social evening slagging off teachers.

Such a Utopia France must be
You seem to spend a good bit of your social time time slagging off the UK and telling us all how this, that of the other is so much better in France.

Dont you go into teaching as a calling? A passion to nurture and develop young minds?

= you should be paid less because you care about your job. Conversely, people who do really vacuous and pointless jobs should be paid more because money is the only reason they could bear to do them.

Again no profession deserves being beyond criticism. They should all be accountable surely?

No one suggested they should but generalisation of everyone in a profession because of one person, place or incident is.

The primary focus from you and your unions seems to be pay and conditions NOT standards.

Well that’ll be because that’s what Unions are there for the employee not the service provided. Although they do fight to keep a service if it supports the workers.

It’s very therapeutic, Jota, especially when it’s raining.

16 odd weeks holiday

Really? just 25% out, but hey some of your best friends are teacher etc…As to money, I had my own shopfitting firm,it was only last year when I was promoted,that I started earning more than I made 10 years ago plastering Boots stores.

Convert how do that contact hours compare?

Overall though – taking into account the leave periods, the pension and the salary as a total package it’s a fair deal.

Do we factor in expensive holidays for life? That’s effectively a pay reduction.

Also, I couldn’t do my job without a room at home to work in. That ups my house price.

Don’t know about the holidays – do we also factor in the teacher training days?

http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/74990/teachers-on-staff-training-dash-to-wedding-party

Don’t know about the holidays – do we also factor in the teacher training days?

“Staff were given that hour and a half of staff development time to research things for our golden jubilee celebrations.”

“They could do that research on or off site, and whenever they liked. Some decided to do it straight away, and others decided to do it after the wedding. It was all agreed with the school governors and is all above board.”

Yes, it simply coincided with the wedding, pure coincidence 🙄

and from personal and anecdotal evidence from teacher mates/family there appear to be some shite teachers around

Can you name a profession that doe snot have some shite people doing it?

The problem is parents only care about their child [ obvious why] and want the best for them. The more pushy a parent is the more they notice it is a [largely] one size fits all delivery model and their little precious wont be the focus of all the teachers attention. Some relaise this and are ok and some think this means the teacher is bad. There are of course some teachers who are just shit but I would not take a parents word for it as they oftenknow little about educationand are some way from objective.
It is fiar toi say bad teachers are not managed our the profession though but I would assume this is an issue in may workplaces not just teaching.

I only consider professions to be divinity, medicine and law, anything else is simply labelling themselves a profession to gain greater credibility

Well you are applying it in a very narrow manner

The primary focus from you and your unions seems to be pay and conditions NOT standards.

The primary focus of OFSTED is standards not pay and conditions – its like both organisations have different roles and remits within the education sector or something.
If the education system is rubbish it would be hard [ barring ideology] to say the fault lies with the unions rather than those who make,deliver and imnpose the sturcture, the training and the delivery of education.

Yes, it simply coincided with the wedding, pure coincidence

No one is suggesting it wasn’t planned.

I have tomorrow and Friday off for “training days”, but the training was done over five evenings after work, so I’m riding my bike instead.

I also get one extra day off per year for report writing, but don’t write reports on that day. In fact, there isn’t one specific day which is that day off.

Similarly, I use some of my weekends and holidays for work though I’m not required to.

Hora you are an idiot.

Expensive holidays for life is a pay reduction????

Perhaps the holiday periods are expensive because that’s when the vast majority of workers can only go on holiday? ie have kids or works shut downs?

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/liverpool-wirral-supply-teaching-agency-944728902?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/guaranteed-supply-teaching-944748858?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/year-4-primary-teaching-job-944745097?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/birmingham-primary-teaching-job-year-6-944724457?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/newly-qualified-primary-teachers-required-944767374?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/early-years-teacher-nursery-944736502?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/year-7-teacher-primary-experience-required-944749137?src=search

Hora you are an idiot.

You don’t have to be a qualified teacher to know that! 😀

Just joshing Mark 😉

Expensive holidays for life is a pay reduction????

Perhaps the holiday periods are expensive because that’s when the vast majority of workers can only go on holiday? ie have kids or works shut downs?

😉

Poor teachers are overpaid
Good teachers are paid correct salary
Fantastic teachers are underpaid

/thread

Can we not just go with the “how does it compare to the private sector” method? When do I get my 10% rise?

Can we not just go with the “how does it compare to the private sector” method? When do I get my 10% rise?

When you move to the private sector 🙂

I think we should negotiate on a per student basis. They get 10% more for half the kids…

Convert how do that contact hours compare?

😆 I think our contracts are probably a bit iffy. There are no contract hours/ annual hours in there. There is a specific percentage of a full teaching load you are expected to do (with the number of lessons that is expected of a FT teacher in the handbook); a list of other duties that are expected; and then the rest is covered by a lovely catch all “whatever extras as deemed necessary by the headteacher” It’s fair to say the headteacher expects his pound of flesh! When we added another week to the academic year a couple of years ago there was a right old load of consultation (quite rightly) necessary for support staff for the change in their T&Cs. Teacher representatives asked if we would also be consulted and were politely pointed to their contracts and told to go swivel.

Can we not just go with the “how does it compare to the private sector” method? When do I get my 10% rise?

You can have my rise for this year aa – 0.8% [if we hit our targets]

That’s how our contracts work too.

There’s a notional number of hours per year which are directed time, but there’s no real agreement as to what constitutes directed time.

We work on a 23.5 hour per week teaching timetable and we’re expected to be in the building on 195 days of the year.

I was meaning how many lessons a week I teach 26 fifty min a week.

Number of lessons is not bad really:-

36 X 35min subject lessons a week (less if you have a responsibility)

There is also a compulsory:-

3hr per week of contact time with tutees
2hrs of sports teaching per week (I actually quite like this bit)
running 2 early evening activities (5.30pm-6.30pm)
running 2 late activities (7.30pm-9pm)
2 X being on a boarding house (9pm-11pm)
2hrs of staff meetings per week
2 assemblies per week (about 7-8pm depending on day)

There is the occasional stuff too – week day duties, weekend duties, departmental all-in weekends, whole school all-in weekends.

You also have to compulsorily go on one school trip in the school holidays – normally about a week. Could see that as a nause or a cheap holiday depending on your outlook. The other difference is training days/prep days/entrance exam days at the beginnings of the terms happen in the holidays which chips away about another week and a half.

As I said before the it’s swings and roundabouts – the day to day pace is slower but the day is longer. A bit like running a marathon rather than sprinting the 100m.

RichPenny – Member
Hora you are an idiot.

You obviously fell down the education tree.

Can you name a profession that does not have some sh*te people doing it?

Nope, but I also can’t think of many jobs that you can so easily get away with being incompetent. The number of teachers sacked for being no good every year is tiny. (Thats not to say I think the vast majority are incompetent btw!)

Poor teachers are overpaid
Good teachers are paid correct salary
Fantastic teachers are underpaid

^^^
I agree with this absolutely

The thing I just don’t understand is why teachers in general appear to think they get a rough deal. I’d say the pay and benefits are just as attractive as private sector roles requiring similar hours/pressures/intelectual and educational entry requirements.

The thing I just don’t understand is why teachers in general appear to think they get a rough deal. I’d say the pay and benefits are just as attractive as private sector roles requiring similar hours/pressures/intelectual and educational entry requirements.

Despite us getting around 10% less than private school teachers? Who get the same pension, may do more hours a week but get longer holidays!

Despite us getting around 10% less than private school teachers? Who get the same pension, may do more hours a week but get longer holidays!

Is the role identical? If so then surely if you wanted 10% extra pay youd be working in a private school. If not identical, do private school teachers have to do something else to earn 10% more?