Just been told that swapping my van wheel front to back might cause vibration. As new tyres are balanced off the vehicle and don’t go on the same bolt holes when removed for MOT or servicing inspection, this is a crock of shit isn’t it?

Utter b*******.
Was this from someone who was selling tyres by any chance?

If you put the front tyres on the back they will just be as balanced as they were before, and your new front tyres will balanced also. So everything’s good.

this is a crock of shit isn’t it?

Yes.

They’re chatting shit

Utter b*******.

+1.

If I’m replacing the front tyres on my van, I swap the older rears onto the front and have the new tyres put on the rear. Means they don’t get too old and the potential for cracking etc, and also I’d rather have understeer than oversteer to deal with (taking it to the extremes).

Sound, cheers. I’ll swap them myself then because they also bloody slow and I can’t be arsed wait longer than necessary. 🫤

It surely cannot be a balancing issue for exactly the moon logic you describe.

It could be something to do with camber / alignment I suppose? If it is though, that would suggest a problem with the van rather than the wheels. I think.

It could be something to do with camber / alignment I suppose? If it is though, that would suggest a problem with the van rather than the wheels. I think

Would make sense, but as they didn’t even go and look if the rears are wearing out oddly, (and they’re not) doubt that was a thought.

Well, naming and shaming time, for anyone on NE Wales. ATS Euromaster, Fflint. This is the advice on their corporate website.

When replacing two tyres on your vehicle, we recommend fitting the new tyres to the rear and moving your partially worn tyres to the front.

Only used them as the most local Blackcircles fitter, (who already sent a fitter satisfaction survey!) so they won’t be receiving an exactly glowing report. 🤬

The local tyre shop would not swap the wheels front to back on my wife’s SUV as he said the wheels were ‘coded’ and I would get a dashboard warning light. I am half tempted to swap one side myself to see what happens…

don’t go on the same bolt holes when removed for MOT

How TF do the fitters know which bolt holes they are balancing for in the first place? A wheel can be refitted onto one of four (or more) after balancing.

How TF do the fitters know which bolt holes they are balancing for in the first place?

Fair point. 😁

I have heard that with modern suspension and steering geometry you tend to get very different wear patterns front to rear and swapping them around can cause issues. It also tends to mean all four tyres will need swapping at the same time which may not be ideal for you.
Just what I’ve heard..

The local tyre shop would not swap the wheels front to back on my wife’s SUV as he said the wheels were ‘coded’ and I would get a dashboard warning light.

This is more than likely true on the basis we are talking about a modern SUV with a true TPMS system.

He just didnt explain it very well. He means the tyre pressure monitoring system. Within each wheel is a sensor and the car has to be told whcih sensor is Left Front, Left Rear, Right Front, Right Rear.

Moving the wheels will mean either the pressures shown will not be in the correct places OR the sensor will go out of range of the receiver.

You just need to correct it, which may be ‘coding’ but may also just be something you can do from the cars on board menu.

You may also not have tyre pressure monitoring on your car in which case hes talkign arse.

I have heard that with modern suspension and steering geometry you tend to get very different wear patterns front to rear

Which is exactly why you should regularly swap them around!

(if its a square setup of course, many cars are not!).

Its not a complete crock of shit, but probably is in your scenario if quoted by National Tyres.

On-wheel balancing is a ‘thing’ and normally recommended by manufacturers as it allows for the tolerances of the wheel centre bore and the hub, and I think also as it includes the brake rotor in the balancing.

My Iveco van has (had, as I removed them) a pin on each hub that locates into a hole on the wheel that ensures the wheel and hub are always clocked correctly, so the studs/bolts always go back through the same holes in the wheel, keeping the wheel and hub assembly balanced and minimise radial run-out.

When replacing two tyres on your vehicle, we recommend fitting the new tyres to the rear and moving your partially worn tyres to the front.

I can’t work out if they wouldn’t fit the new tyres to the rear despite their own advice recommending it, or if you don’t agree with them insisting on fitting new tyres to the rear?

Have had cars where we’ve done a front to back swap, on tyres that look normally worn, produce really pronounced pulling to one side. Swap them back and all sorts itsef. But upsetting balancing as a result? Nope.

On car balancing is a right pain and really nothing in that system should be out of balance to start with, unless the brake rotors have been in the sea (it’s not a transit custom is it?).

I guess my Iveco van is set up for it as Iveco are predominantly a heavy truck manufacturer, and I think on wheel balancing is more common for HGV’s. That, or its got a sporting pedigree as it seems they also use it in motorsport to get things perfect 🙂

Balancing wise bollocks.

Though some folk don’t Balance rears so if you swap you can get a judder.

By Michelin recommended thing is old tyres on the front to promote safe understeer

I don’t rotate tyres as I end up with 4x at one time not 2x

But its why you’ll end up replacing all four tyres at the same time rather than spreading the cost over a longer a period. That’ll be a big deal to many people.

Did they offer new helium in the tyres? Better suspension and MPG i hear…

IME most replacement small vehicle tyres are balanced on the wheel rather than to a corner so I don’t see that argument. I haven’t seen a tyre balanced on the car for 20 years
Peculiar tread wear is usually some kind of a problem that needs investigation rather than a reason to not swap tyres around
You can get a situation with rear tyres never wearibg out on lightly loaded FWD vans and getting binned for reasons of age. I’m happy that my indy garage decides for me

But its why you’ll end up replacing all four tyres at the same time

I don’t follow that, if you’re referring to putting new tyres on the rear and worn rears on the front, which is what I do. Fronts wear out, so then you have part worn fronts and new rears, again the fronts are the first to wear out. That will always be the case, because the fronts start off part worn and wear faster. Assuming it’s a FWD drive car, it’s so long since I had a RWD I don’t know which end wears fastest.

Did they offer new helium in the tyres? Better suspension and MPG i hear…

No, the poster in the waiting room recommended it because it leaks out slower. 🤣

You can get a situation with rear tyres never wearibg out on lightly loaded FWD vans and getting binned for reasons of age.

This is actually one of the reasons for wanting to swap them. They’re 4 years old and getting noisy, I want to run them close to winter, then change them.

The local tyre shop would not swap the wheels front to back on my wife’s SUV as he said the wheels were ‘coded’ and I would get a dashboard warning light. I am half tempted to swap one side myself to see what happens…

He’s right, you’re wrong*, modern cars measure the tyre presure and throw up a warning if its out of the specified range. If you swapped front and rear then then at best the system would see the incorrect pressure (assuming like most cars there is a few psi difference front-rear).

*Unless some specific system has a way of figuring out which wheel is where on a car, but that’s not how the ones I’ve encountered worked.

I’m just pricing up a new set of tyres online. The website is trying to flog me a £30 bag of glass balancing beads, but seeing as they are already adding on the fitting charge I’m not sure what the benefit is! How about a white tyre marker pen to outline my lettering 😂

Glass balancing beads? FFS that’s a whole new world of extra-planatory bollocks. I hope you were joking? Please tell me you were.

What about the different camber between the front and rear, does this not cause the tyres to wear differently?

I’d not risk it, but then I’d also not buy remoulded or budget tyres.

After a bit of googling, it is actually recommend by Goodyear.

https://www.goodyear.eu/en_gb/consumer/learn/rotating-your-tires.html#:~:text=Tyre%20rotation%20is%20the%20process,unless%20the%20manufacturer%20states%20otherwise.

If a tyre manufacturer says its ok then I’d take their word for it (and follow their guide)

No, the poster in the waiting room recommended it because it leaks out slower.

That would be nitrogen, not helium.

Nitrogen molecules are slightly bigger than oxygen molecules, so pure nitrogen leaks through the rubber more slowly than air. Helium doesn’t form molecules except at close to absolute zero, and helium atoms are much smaller than oxygen molecules.

If a tyre manufacturer says its ok then I’d take their word for it (and follow their guide)

A dearly departed rally driving friend of mine taught me about the importance of doing this.
He worked for Michelin for many years and told me how they learnt in training by watching a trained driver do a demonstration of the impact of putting new tyres vs on the front.

I now have to explain this every time I get my car serviced as

On my Mitsubishi ute/pickup if i have the more worn tyres on the rear it handles terribly and the traction control operates with the mildest provocation.

That would be nitrogen, not helium.

Ah, read helium brain assumed nitrogen because I’ve not heard of helium inflation. But a bit of internet research suggests idiots have tried it!