Suella! Braverman!

Cruella B is into Sea Shanties now..

I’ll have a little Rishi
On a little dishy
When my sh*tstorm’s in…

So it’s not really a ‘stretch’ to suggest

Well, you’ve clearly made up your mind already.

There was no threats of legal action that I saw and I was on the thread the whole time. It was closed because of baseless slurs being made that were potentially libellous and the mods could not be arsed with dealing with a messy thread like that.

The thread was closed immediately after I reported tomd for falsely accusing others of anti-semitism. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that. Personally I think it would have been better for the mods to do what they usually do in those circumstances but instead they chose to close the whole thing down.

Well, you’ve clearly made up your mind already.

No, just putting it out there. I think we can all agree that politicians like a good publicity stunt. And this is exactly the sort of thing, had it gone according to plan that someone like Gove would do. The rest of the day hadn’t really gone the tories way, so why not engineer something that might regain a little bit of sympathy? A democratically elected member of Parliament, being attacked by an angry ‘mob’, would have played very nicely into their hands, wouldn’t you agree? It was immediately seized upon by the right wing press, anyway.

It’s not impossible.

And this is exactly the sort of thing, had it gone according to plan that someone like Gove would do.

Er, it did go to plan, you even point it out further in your paragraph!

It was immediately seized upon by the right wing press

Moderator comments get deleted, but the comment about a temporary closure referenced a threat of legal action and came just after this of comment of yours, which in the most charitable reading at least raised that prospect:

You can have whatever opinions and thoughts about me you so choose, I have no control over that. But should you choose to voice those opinions in a public arena such as this forum, then you risk staying into the territory of defamation and slander. So please consider this.

I also wish it hadn’t been closed, but there’s no point ignoring the many posts and temporary closures that led to its eventual permanent closure.

Anyway, I’ll drop it now, because I do enjoy your posts for the most part. I think they’re thoughtful and considered even when I don’t agree. And I very much appreciated your comments yesterday.

Back to Cruella…

I think you are wildly overestimating this government’s ability to plan something like this on the hoof, to get a minister of significant seniority to engage with it, and to then carry it out with the connivance of the cops all for the benefit of a couple of headlines, if it all comes off as planned, and doesn’t go horribly wrong

I think it looks like Gove walked into a station without thinking about what might happen because Gove walked into a station without really thinking through what might happen. 

Benos – in no way or form is that a threat of legal action.   The continual baseless slurs are potentially libelous and the person making those slurs would not stop.   He made those slurs against a number of folk

“when in a hole stop digging”  Hattersleys law

Moderator comments get deleted, but the comment about a temporary closure referenced a threat of legal action and came just after this of comment of yours, which in the most charitable reading at least raised that prospect:

There is nothing in my post that threatens legal action, as you have alleged. This is a fact, echoed by others. You have decided to deliberately misconstrue, then misrepresent what I’ve said. This, I find offensive. But it serves as an example of the ‘oneupmanship’ that is all too present in internet debates. You have failed to argue effectively against my words, so you choose instead to attempt to create a false narrative that better suits your own views. Yesterday, I asked that people try to build bridges rather than dig trenches. I am sure that ultimately, we both, and hopefully everyone else on here,  want a peaceful outcome to this tragedy. So let’s instead try to find common ground, rather than constantly look for ways to undermine one another.

I think you are wildly overestimating this government’s ability to plan something like this on the hoof, to get a minister of significant seniority to engage with it, and to then carry it out with the connivance of the cops all for the benefit of a couple of headlines, if it all comes off as planned, and doesn’t go horribly wrong

I think it looks like Gove walked into a station without thinking about what might happen because Gove walked into a station without really thinking through what might happen.

I don’t think I’m ‘overestimating’ this government’s ability to be utterly mendacious and manipulative. They are past masters at creating such stunts. It could just have been the idea of one or two advisers; ‘let’s try this see if it works’. As for Gove; he is far more intelligent than you appear to give him credit for. There is no way he would not have thought this through. Plus, he’ll have been surrounded by security the whole time; a politician of his stature and lack of popularity would never be allowed to just wander about on his own without a security detail.

But as I said; it was just a thought, I’m happy to accept I could be wrong.

But as I said; it was just a thought, I’m happy to accept I could be wrong.

Certainly sounds like it 🙄

Certainly sounds like it 🙄

Well, you’ve clearly made up your mind already.

Christ. Can you just form your own chat space to duke it out and leave this thread on track.

Gove as a matter of course wouldn’t have a security detail, he isn’t in a sensitive office nor has he been. The general rule is that he is not be entitled to use ministerial transport if he is on constituency business. With the amount of roadworks in South West London at the moment it would have been much quicker to travel by train.

Gove is often seen on public transport and in public places alone without security.  I actually applaud him for it. 

How can it be a resignation letter when she was sacked?
She was very politely asked to resign.

Am I right in thinking that MP’s can’t be sacked as such as they are elected, but they can have the whip withdrawn, essentially kicking them out of the party but they would still be an MP?

But in this case Braverman resigned from her position as minister for tents and small boats in cabinate (so remains a tory back bencher), under threat of removal of whip?

Gove as a matter of course wouldn’t have a security detail

And Gove as a matter of course would have known that Victoria Station would be chock-a-block with pro-Palestinian demonstrators.

I don’t buy into this theory that all Tory politicians are idiots.

Christ. Can you just form your own chat space to duke it out and leave this thread on track.

Controversial & religious content detected. I’ll fight you!

I think it looks like Gove walked into a station without thinking about what might happen because Gove walked into a station without really thinking through what might happen.

The heil reports him as having got out of a official car, due to road closures, and having started to walk home before being followed and booed by protesters.
Since, reasonably, he didnt want them following him home he then went into the station to find some cops.
So whilst not great behaviour there doesnt seem to have been any real threat.

Maybe it was Mossad? Part of their campaign to undermine the pro-Palstine movement by being a bit shouty and generally beastly to poor old Michael Gove?

Makes you think…

so she’s a wee bit annoyed

?BREAKING: Suella Braverman ATTACKS Rishi Sunak

"You have manifestly and repeatedly failed"

"You never had any intention of keeping your promises"

"Someone needs to be honest: your plan is not working. You need to change course urgently" pic.twitter.com/IGsKDjUIIo

— Politics UK (@PolitlcsUK) November 14, 2023

If you make such an accusation, you have to be able to back it up.

I did.

As for the original Palestine thread getting closed; that is a moderation decision I disagree with, I have to say.

Many people would seemingly agree. It’s a shame the threads had to be closed, whether it was the wrong decision is a different matter. But if people demonstrably cannot play nicely then this is why they cannot have nice things. I’d refer you back to TJ’s earlier post, he was on the money. The moderators aren’t paid staff, they do it out of goodwill and out of love for the site. If a thread turns into a pain in the bollocks to keep on top of then it will get closed because sometimes that’s the only option left; it’s the same with bans, if you’re asked to stop doing something and you persist then there’s little else they can do. This is Wheaton’s Law in action, not censorship.

I’m glad discussion about this horrific war has been allowed to continue on this thread at least.

It’s almost like that totally negates your original accusation that I can’t back up calling someone out for claiming that we’re not allowed to talk about things, isn’t it.

This discussion belongs in a separate thread IMHO. I’m mildly surprised that it hasn’t been closed already due to the wild topic drift.

the pro-Palstine movement by being a bit shouty and generally beastly to poor old Michael Gove?

Not only beastly but also terribly British. They chanted : “Shame On You!”

Oh how that must have wounded him.

Having read braverman’s letter …Ho! Ho!

You can’t help but love her final sentence – “I will, of course, continue to support the Government in pursuit of policies which align with an authentic conservative agenda”.

I take it that means she will be voting against the Gov on everything.

OOF!!!

That’s the Tory civil war officially declared then 😂

Vote of no confidence on Friday then?

Surely that was the inevitable result from the day he appointed her

“They are what people voted for in the 2016 Brexit Referendum.”

Did anyone miss the bit about “protecting biological sex”, turning away international students, and increasing wage thresholds for work visas in the referendum?

I’m staggered at the promises she claims Sunak was prepared to offer to get her to take the job. And her being an already-sacked-by-Truss cast-off. He must have been desperate, to promise to make primary legislation immune to pretty much all legal challenge.

It’s enough of a step on from the conventional ‘you’re a bit shit, I’m off’ letter that he should be considering withdrawing the Conservative whip from her in the name of party discipline. But of course he won’t do that.

so she’s a wee bit annoyed

With the language used I can’t see how she can retain the Tory whip.

It is impossible to know what she is up to but it is clear that she isn’t too concerned about the damage that publicly denouncing their leader might do to the Tory Party.

Perhaps she is looking at a post general election breakaway right-wing party. I reckon that she has now comprehensively destroyed any chances of her becoming leader of a united Tory Party.

Perhaps she is looking at a post general election breakaway right-wing party. I reckon that she has now comprehensively destroyed any chances of her becoming leader of a united Tory Party.

Look at the way that even so-called ‘moderate’ Republicans fell into lockstep with Trump, and remain there, in spite of everything. There are very few of them who were prepared to say no to him, and they were swiftly purged.

If she can somehow become leader of the Conservative Party, the same could happen here, and she could command the loyalty of the vast majority of its MPs, as well as the solid support of the geriatric arseholes who make up the membership. All she needs is for it to go to the members. I thought she might not have the numbers, Sunak certainly thought that, so we’ll have to see if enough of them are dumb enough to put their letters in.

The Parliamentary Party is not so important at this point. In a year or so it will be in disarray, and severely reduced in size, at which point whoever holds the reins sets the direction. Even if she performs badly during the election, Braverman can claim that she arrived too late to stop the massive defeat (the letter basically says it), but she’s prepared to stick around to make the necessary changes and lead them to victory in 2028.

He must have been desperate

think it was part of the deal for her to back him in the post truss leadership election, thwarting a possible return for Boris.

The ERG made the decision not to back anyone as a block… so getting key people from that grouping (assuming others would follow their lead) to back anyone other than Johnson, to stop him getting the numbers among MPs, was key to avoiding a run off involving the ex-PM… especially one that went to the members (who, impossible though this seems to the rest of the country, could very well have voted for him to return as leader and PM).

If she can somehow become leader of the Conservative Party

I can’t see how that can happen now. You can’t compare the Tory Party with the US Republican Party, quite apart from anything else there are no primary elections. Any Tory leader needs substantial support from parliamentary party.

Braverman is helping to guarantee that the next general election will be a total disaster for the Tories. The Tories number one priority will be to try and unite, they are generally quite good at that. Braverman will be seen as totally divisive.

Any Tory leader needs substantial support from parliamentary party.

I come simply from the experience of thinking no sane MP would allow Liz Truss to get to the final two of a Tory leadership election.

Boris spent a good while undermining his leader and generally being totally divisive within the party, and it paid off nicely for him.

Perhaps she thinks her best chance to become leader is this side of an election, not after it? I can only see her popularity with members fading now she’s out of government… but she’s still far more popular than Sunak… for now. Also, post election, there could well be far fewer of the MPs that might support her than there are now. Who knows? Toppling Sunak might be her only path to being leader… even if it looks unlikely to distant observers.

EDIT: The Tory party doing the unlikely has become almost normal.

I can only see her popularity with members fading now she’s out of government… but she’s still far more popular than Sunak… for now. Also, post election, there could well be far fewer of the MPs that might support her than there are now. Who knows?

Quite possibly this is the only moment, which is why she’s pushing it over the edge. But then again, after a crushing election defeat the argument that ‘we would have won but we just weren’t authentically Conservative enough’ will also be quite attractive. Her rivals will be painted as ‘more of the same’.

EDIT: The Tory party doing the unlikely has become almost normal.

It’s hard to conceive the scale of its dysfunction from our position.

that letter is better than I could have hoped for.  Hopefully it will swiftly move on to more letters of no confidence, snide briefings to client journos and further chaos. Boris must be furious that he resigned now 😉

Under normal circumstances I know this would be a bad thing for government, but the best thing we can hope for is that they do ‘nothing’ until the next election, considering everything they touch turns to shit. Legislative Inactivity and infighting can only be a good thing for us.

also. It’s entertaining.

Legislative Inactivity and infighting can only be a good thing for us.

Depressing but true. There could certainly be worse times for this to happen, and it might stop them breaking so much until they’re gone. Hopefully.

Toppling Sunak might be her only path to being leader… even if it looks unlikely to distant observers.

She’s not going to replace Sunak this side of an election, why would she want to take over then be responsible for a tory wipeout? She could however force his hand to hold an election, in which she would then benefit by him losing massively and then saying I told you so. All it needs is a few dozen tory MPs to abstain in a confidence vote.

Never underestimate how much some people want to be PM. Even if only for a short while.