Suella! Braverman!

It looks as if there might actually be some very good news for Rishi Sunak on Wednesday:

https://www.standard.co.uk/business/rishi-sunak-inflation-pledge-interest-rates-bank-of-england-halve-october-oil-prices-israel-gaza-b1119900.html

The latest City expectation is that inflation on Wednesday will come in at 4.8% according to Refinitiv, or 4.7% according to Bloomberg.

Unfortunately for Rishi Sunak because he has decided to focus so much on something which was never going to be achievable the good news on Wednesday which affects ordinary voters lives, and was always going to be easy to achieve, will be completely overshadowed by Rwanda and arguments over whether the UK should withdraw from the ECHR.

I have no doubt that most voters are more concerned about inflation than ECHR membership.

I don’t think Rishi Sunak is stupid but he is clearly not a brilliant strategist

Jeremy Quin says he has resigned as paymaster general, a minister in the Cabinet Office. He says he wants to focus on projects in Horsham, his constituency, where he had a majority of 21,127 at the last election.

Another one gone.  Got to be approaching double figures now

Did the isreali government not bring about the end of the palestinian authority that created a more moderate leadership?

No.

Absolutely they did. Israel created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO. They were very successful.

Why is this being discussed when it is a forbidden topic?

Israel created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO.

This is why it’s hard to discuss this stuff on a forum. Would you want this nonsense appearing on your website?

The Israeli government back then kept channels open with all parties in Gaza, no matter how opposed to Israel they were, or if they backed terrorist attacks (back when talking without prerequisites was was accepted as the route to peace). They did not create Hamas.

Ha ha ha Cameron must now be the best candidate they’ve got to replace sunak. I don’t know if it’s legally possible but he’s surely the most competent in government at the moment

Wee Ruthie must have fo’d the FO

Just when you thought you were scraping the barrel, someone had a look underneath

BP I think you’ll find that a lot of those allegations against Hamas were quietly dropped by journalists and politicians because there was no evidence for it. Also, what you refer to as ‘collateral damage’ is also referred to by the perpetrators as ‘mowing the lawn’.

Would you want this nonsense appearing on your website?

Why not? The Wall Street Journal don’t have a problem with that “nonsense” on their website:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel’s destruction.”

Obviously not everyone likes the truth but I wouldn’t necessarily put STW in that category, would you?

The rise of Hamas was possible because of actions taken (and not taken) by Israeli governments.

I really appreciate your comments, @brownperson, and it’s a shame to see you getting some pushback for them.

The rise of Hamas was possible because….

Read it article.

Edit: To be fair to the Israelis it was at a time when the CIA was financing and arming Osama bin Laden and Margaret Thatcher was supporting Pol Pot.

It just seemed like a good idea at the time.

Read it article.

It’ll say what I said. Dialogue between the Israeli government any and all players in Gaza (while seeking a peaceful future) including the hardliners of Hamas, emboldened and empowered them… gave the more extreme elements political legitimacy. Helped them grow. But it is not the case that they… “created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO”. But well done for inserting that conspiracy theory into this thread.

But it is not the case that they… “created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO”

That is exactly what the Wall Street Journal article says.

Maybe a strongly worded email to the WSJ demanding that they remove that “nonsense” from their website?

I’ve read it now. It’s a good piece… if you read the whole thing. Worth a read. It doesn’t say what you say it does… unless you choose to ignore 90% of the words.

I’ll pick a select phrase from it…

“Israeli officials who served in Gaza disagree on how much their own actions may have contributed to the rise of Hamas. They blame the group’s recent ascent on outsiders, primarily Iran.”

…and add that I think the actions of Israeli officials greatly contributed to the rise of Hamas… but it is simply not the case that they… “created Hamas to undermine the secular and left-wing PLO”. That’s conspiracy theory nonsense of the oldest kind. The roots of Hamas are well known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

I don’t think the phrase shuffling the deckchairs on the Titanic is fully adequate now to describe this Tory party.

It doesn’t say what you say it does… unless you choose to ignore 90% of the words.

Well you choose to ignore these words:

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades.”

I think they are quite important. And exactly the same point as I was making.

Guys   may i humbly suugest that this gets dropped?   Its into arguing semantics already

Apologies for starting it

It comes to something doesn’t it, when you see Cameron and think “well… that’s probably the least worst option.”

The issue was the muppets who succeeded him pursuing some idealistic dream brexit rather than seeking compromises.

Well, that was arguably an issue but it sure as shit wasn’t the issue.

Guys may i humbly suugest that this gets dropped? Its into arguing semantics already

TJ now with the antisemantic views.

antisemantic views

I don’t know whether that’s the best thing or the worst thing I have ever read.

Apologies for starting it

Was it you??

t Thatcher was supporting Pol Pot

Did’nt know that it ‘s not much of a surprise though

Apologies for starting it

Was it you??

TJ started Hamas?!?! Quick tell the Wall Street Journal and M<t Cohen that they got it wrong.

This is why I alway come to STW for my world news updates.

TJ now with the antisemantic views.

🎩👏

Post of the week right there

TJ now with the antisemantic views.

Im not keen on vests either so i am an anti semmit

This is why I alway come to STW for my world news updates.

More Hamas related news updates……in two weeks time it will be 2 years since the Tories decided that Hamas are terrorists:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/islamist-terrorist-group-hamas-banned-in-the-uk

I don’t know whether that’s the best thing or the worst thing I have ever read.

To be fair, I’ll take either.

It comes to something doesn’t it, when you see Cameron and think “well… that’s probably the least worst option.”

A safe pair of hands. It’s not as if we can leave Europe twice, is it?

Cameron must now be the best candidate they’ve got to replace sunak. I don’t know if it’s legally possible but he’s surely the most competent in government at the moment

If this is possible then it’s fairly terrifying as I can see him winning the next GE or getting close enough to prevent Labour forming a government.

It is “possible” for David Cameron to become PM again, it just requires the King to ask him to form a government. It’s been a very long time since there has been a PM from the House of Lords though.

It just shows how ridiculous the whole House of Lords nonsense is and why Starmer should stick to his pledge to “Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations”.

Edit: I don’t see how or why Austerity Dave would be an electoral asset for the Tories. There is overwhelming evidence that voters want change, not failed former prime ministers from the past dug up.

So you have switched from what was allegedly happening on pro-Palestinian demos to what has allegedly happened in Israel. That’s quite a leap. Still, it is a forbidden topic on STW.

I haven’t ‘switched’ from anything. I just feel it’s important for impartiality in respect of victims of war. It is well evidenced that hostile forces often use rape and sexual violence against prisoners. There have been eye witness accounts of rape from October 7th. In fact, Israeli women’s groups are concerned with the lack of evidence gathering regarding this. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/israel-womens-groups-warn-of-failure-to-keep-evidence-of-sexual-violence-in-hamas-attacks

It has been well evidenced that the IDF has used rape and sexual violence against Palestinians too. We must not be partisan when it comes to concern and compassion for victims, any victims. Analysis of suffering must have equivalence. No life is worth more or less than any other. 

I am not concerned with being on the ‘right side’; I find such reductionism abhorrent and counter-productive. As I’ve mentioned previously; my partner is Jewish. Anyone who comes for her, comes for me also. The only path to peace is through solidarity. 

It comes to something doesn’t it, when you see Cameron and think “well… that’s probably the least worst option.”

I wonder if Gideon fancies chucking his gig at the Evening Standard then we can go full circle.

Halcyon days indeed.

I’ve just been catching up with the news feed on the BBC, and this lower sentence made me read it three times. Then I realised it’s actually 2 sentences.

Health Secretary Steve Barclay was seen arriving at No 10 a short time ago.
We don’t yet know why. Barclay has been the health secretary since October 2022.

Further, I am not concerned with anyone who wishes to use this terrible tragedy to score internet points. Whilst you might think it a game to argue about the pointless and irrelevant minutiae of certain interpretations of history, the people of Gaza are suffering a collective punishment that is so utterly immoral, so disgusting, it degrades all of humanity. Some of you might want to consider your thoughts and words on here, and their potential impact. Many hundreds of innocent people lost their lives on October the 7th, many more thousands have lost their lives, their homes, their futures, since.

I found my wife yesterday, crying because of the sheer hopelessness of it all. Because babies are dying. My wife deals with human tragedies every day, as part of her job. She seldom cries. Her sister is living in daily fear in Israel, and whilst the ‘risk’ to her and her family is significantly less than in Gaza, the fear is still there. This is our family; we have Palestinian friends and colleagues who have lost loved ones, who cannot do anything to help those who remain. There is no hierarchy of grief, no scale of entitlement to outrage.

Please consider your words to one another more carefully. Look at your fellow human being; do you truly have hatred for them? Why not seek to build bridges and not trenches between one another? I myself am as guilty as anyone for wanting my voice heard, for wanting my sentiments to be regarded as righteous, but please. This is not the time for further division. Do not play the tories game. Again; the only way forward is through unity.

I’m going to leave this here for now, as it’s clear my emotions are overriding rationality and clarity of vision. Peace to all.

Weird to see the “Israel created Hamas” canard being wheeled out to be support for the question (proposition):

Did the isreali government not bring about the end of the palestinian authority that created a more moderate leadership?

…when Hamas was founded in 1987 and the Palestinian Authority was created only in 1994.

Mind you, there’s plenty of people that believe in Jewish Space Lasers and Muslamic Rayguns, so perhaps it’s only a short hop to imagining Mossad time travelled back to create Hamas to end the PNA before it even existed.

It is well evidenced that hostile forces often use rape and sexual violence against prisoners

I thought you were giving a report about Saturday’s demo? Why talk about rape and sexual violence?

Discussing the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is prohibited on STW.

Although if we are going down that road let’s focus at least on the most important current issue – the catastrophic human consequences, not who is right and who is wrong

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-67334666

More than 11,000 people have been killed in Gaza according to the Hamas-run health ministry, including more than 4,500 children – but Nick believes those numbers could be just the tip of the iceberg.

“As a result of the bombings there will be large numbers of deaths due to untreated cancers, untreated diabetes,” he says.

“Until insulin was invented, diabetes killed everyone. Now, if they haven’t got any insulin… diabetes will start killing people.

“If they’ve got no power, they can’t give dialysis, so all patients in kidney failure will die, so that the amount of excess deaths will be huge in the next few months absolutely is a really important point.”

“They’re drinking dirty, non-sterile water at the moment. The big danger is that infectious diseases just take control and run through the population…and that will lead to many, many thousands of deaths.”

TJ now with the antisemantic views.

Very good but I tell you, puns will start WW III or something. 😉

Joking aside…

This thread, as so many of the political/ geopolitical ones do, remind me of how close the opinions are on here are yet pages are spent debating the slightest nuisance of difference.

I mean, I love STW and the heated discussions but it strikes me there is far more consensus than many like to admit. Wood for trees and all that.

Just my thoughts anyway.

It just shows how ridiculous the whole House of Lords nonsense is and why Starmer should stick to his pledge to “Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations”.

although… if you were the PM and you wanted a vaguely competent cabinet having a mechanism to coopt people to make up for the muppets the electorate voted for would be quite handy.  It’s hardly uncommon for an ex-PM to end up in the lords.  I’m not a fan of the Lords at all but I definitely don’t want a second chamber voted the way first chamber is!

I’m going to leave this here for now, as it’s clear my emotions are overriding rationality and clarity of vision. Peace to all.

On the contrary, your input is careful, measured, polite and informative.

Which rather shows up the rest of us, to be honest

I definitely don’t want a second chamber voted the way first chamber is!

Okay ….. so let’s abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations, which uses a different voting method.

On the contrary, your input is careful, measured, polite and informative.

Agreed. It’s other argumentative sods on here that twist the discussion.