Suella! Braverman!

Can we ship Suella off to africa?

Now That’s a policy I can support.

I was trying to be serious with you ernie but there’s not much point really.

Well I have got to admit that I was struggling to take seriously the claim that Reform UK/English Democrats had remarkably few votes in the Manchester mayoral elections two years ago because of the actions of left-wing Irish gangsters who are ‘mostly dead now’.

And no, I’m not calling anyone racist either.

Well it is very difficult to figure out what you are saying inkster. This very much suggests the opposite:

I’d ask you to name a black politician or council member or people in prominent positions but I know you’re politicaly well informed so could probably furnish me with an answer but for the rest of us, if they do exist they are invisible.

As invisible as white people were at the BLM protest in Manchester. One of the characteristics of the protests worldwide was that they were supported by people of all races. Not in Manchester they weren’t.

Why are you saying all that if you aren’t calling anyone racist?

Ernie, I said that the BNP couldn’t get a footing in the city 20 years ago because they had been threatened with being shot, That actually happened. (Allegedly).

You read that as:

Me claiming that Reform UK/English Democrats had remarkably few votes in the Manchester mayoral elections two years ago because of something that happened 20 years ago?

Are you dumb?

“Why are you saying all that if you aren’t calling anyone racist?”

I referenced that there were less white people at the BLM protest in Manchester than say…. the one in Guildford, a city one tenth the size.

And you construed that as me saying people on here were racist? The people of Manchester? Well quite possibly when you compare those numbers.

Again ernie, are you dumb?

And you construed that as me saying people on here were racist?

Again, are you dumb?

On here? No. I took it that you were talking about racism in Manchester. The following certainly sounds as if you are talking about that:

I’d ask you to name a black politician or council member or people in prominent positions but I know you’re politicaly well informed so could probably furnish me with an answer but for the rest of us, if they do exist they are invisible.

As invisible as white people were at the BLM protest in Manchester. One of the characteristics of the protests worldwide was that they were supported by people of all races. Not in Manchester they weren’t.

Frankly I don’t know what you are saying. But maybe I am just dumb as you suggest.

Well as a Manchester resident of Irish catholic heritage, this is fascinating trying to work out if I’m a racist, a gangster, or both. Hmmmmmmm

Anyway… back on topic… sort of…

This weeks episode of beautifully-written, American-made Apple TV fluff, Ted Lasso, featured an interesting if quite surprising story arc

*spoiler alert if you’ve not seen it*

A Nigerian Premier League player gets into a Twitter spat with the UK Home Secretary, who is referred to as ‘the devil’ and ‘pure evil’ because of the dehumanising language she keeps using to refer to refugees and asylum seekers

He then gets the restaurant he owns trashed, presumably by far right thugs, who spray the Home Secretaries dismissive words to him on the wall after they’ve wrecked the place

Quite a bold comment about politicians language inciting violence

In other unsurprising news, the claims she made yesterday about migrants and criminality are based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

If you were being generous you could refer to her claims as ‘purely anecdotal’ but more than likely she just made them up for a bit of scaremongering and demonising.

She says she has spoken to ‘senior police sources’ but won’t actually name anyone and nobody from any police force will go on the record backing up those claims/made-up nonsense

Does Suella Braverman have evidence to link boat arrivals to crime? https://t.co/HR2CfyLDhg

— The Guardian (@guardian) April 26, 2023

Actualy, no, can we just set her on fire and burn the body in a ditch?

You know that this is a thread mostly about the effects of hate speech, right?

Can we ship Suella off to africa?

If that happened I would expect her to play every ‘card’ to avoid it, including an appeal to the ECHR.

Actualy, no, can we just set her on fire and burn the body in a ditch?

I can’t condone that – not acceptable given that a lot of the context around Braverman is the on the ground effects of her hate speech.

What is also unacceptable, though, is the notion that Braverman obviously has that all this nasty to foreigners stuff is a vote winner. It doesn’t reflect at all well on us as a country. Obviously culture war bigotry is all the Tories have left to deploy, but someone is obviously advising them that this is the way to go to pull in Labour’s lead.

Sad times.

@moimoifan – There was a good article in the Guardian this week by Rafael Behr saying exactly that, but a good summary generally of what the Tories are now doing. These aren’t even remotely workable policies, just campaigning for the next general election by appealing to Little Englanders and racists

Reality is Sunak’s enemy in this endless Tory campaign to defy political gravity

This sums it up….

The illegal Migration Bill is conceived more as a campaign aid than a workable policy measure. It flouts international law and mandates detention and deportations on a scale that couldn’t practically be achieved even if they were legal.

But the function of such a law is to demonstrate ferocity of intent to stop boats and to solicit opposition from the Labour leader, Keir Starmer, which can be narrated as softness on an issue where target voters want toughness. Once enacted, the law’s secondary function kicks in: provoking a culture war skirmish with any judicial authority that dares to insist that the British state meet its obligations to respect refugees’ human rights. If that authority is European, all the better.

This is what the the official Tory Party social media was putting out yesterday, across the board. It is literally all they’ve got left, but this is where the politics of this country presently is. Utterly depressing.

The facts are clear, Labour do not want to stop the boats.

Tonight, they have sided with criminal gangs and those who exploit our system and law.

Labour's plan on immigration revealed ? pic.twitter.com/gZqa0VxA6l

— Conservatives (@Conservatives) April 26, 2023

I was going to link to that Raphael Behr article yesterday. The last few year have clearly demonstrated that there is fertile ground for politicians willing to pander to prejudice and bigotry as well as disregarding reality as Project Fear or a woke conspiracy by The Blob – as Liz Truss characterised it.

There was another article earlier in the week about how Meloni is normalising the far right in Italy. That is unquestionably what the Tories are doing now too.

The likes of Braverman should be being laughed at, ridiculed and kept away from high office at all costs. Nowadays it seems the more sensible voices come from the backbenches whilst the nutters are in the ascendancy. And this will not go away – there will be a significant number of previously mute racists and bigots permanently emboldened by the actions of this government.

Disgraceful.

I have some to the collusion that not only is Braverman using small boats and dog whistling racist ideas as a culture war to try to gain votes but that she actually is racist in that she believes this nonsense

I think that what we’re seeing – and we’ve got Boris and the Brexiteers to thank for this – is the political process as a permanent election campaign, with little interest in actual policy. They seek to prolong their time in office for reasons that seem to have little to do with serving the interests of the country.

If theres any consolation of this, is that this lot don’t seem to actually DO anything. They just shout 3 word slogans and sit on their hands while their mates line their pockets. The only policies they carry out are the ones to further corrupt our democracy in their favour

The Rwanda deportation flights and new detention centres will join the 40 new hospitals and a nuclear power plant a year in the list of Tory fantasies/lies that will never happen.

But in the meantime they debase everything they touch and this adoption of the language and rhetoric of the far right is genuinely dangerous in what it is tacitly legitimising and endorsing. I think there are going to be far reaching consequences in the way it toxifies our culture with division and hatred.

Not that they care.

They are truly despicable and what makes it worse is seeing how many of them are the first generation children of immigrants/refugees. What does that say about them as people?

The Rwanda deportation flights and new detention centres will join the 40 new hospitals and a nuclear power plant a year in the list of Tory fantasies/lies that will never happen.

And that can, in turn, be blamed on a woke/remainer/lefty/unpatriotic fifth column – aka The Blob as Thick Lizzy tried to characterise it. And a lot of people swallow this nonsense as it feeds some internal narrative of theirs.

The Tories have become Rich Energy! A brand with no product.

Oh, they have a product. Its just not one they want anyone to see.

They want to further entrench and widen inequality and facilitate the transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. They want to further deregulate and privatise, impoverishing the public realm and further solidify their own powerbase

All this other stuff is just noise to distract people from that. There will never be any flights to Rwanda, any more than there will be 40 new hospitals and in the grand scheme of things the ‘small boats’ are an irrelevance.

But they get to create an imaginary enemy – the other – here to destroy our way of life (whatever that is?). Then they use this enemy to do what they have done so successfully since the Brexit campaign… divide and rule. They do this by harnessing peoples irrational, basest fears. This is now an orchestrated campaign to make all immigrants out as rapists and murderers (which is what Farage did so successfully during the Brexit campaign and Braverman and Jenrick were both doing yesterday) and exploiting ignorance, prejudice and racism.

What has become very apparent is that where some were prepared to give Sunak the benefit of the doubt, thinking he was indulging the nutter part of the party by appointing Braverman, its obvious now that it was because he agrees with her/them. He’s as nasty as the lot of them, behind his patronising smile and demeanour

I can’t condone that – not acceptable given that a lot of the context around Braverman is the on the ground effects of her hate speech.

I agree, theres enough pollution in the world.

Im sure there’s a more environmentally friendly method

As I pointed out on another thread I still believe we’ve a problem with immigrants not adopting the ‘British Values’ I and many other multi-generational Brits have.

The folk I see/hear are all 2nd generation immigrants such as the MP’s Braverman, Sunak, Patel and Kruger to name a few.

Why are 2nd generation immigrants like this?

Wandering a bit off topic now, but this is what the modern tories want us to be – a nation of philistines governed by philistines.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/26/simon-rattle-britain-arts-classical-music-labour

From the article:

It wasn’t always like this. The opening ceremony of the 2012 London Olympics depicted a capacious British culture, accessible to all and appealing in multiple registers. That’s disappeared now.

How very true – on many levels.

And depressing.

mattyfez
Full Member

Can we ship Suella off to africa?

Now That’s a policy I can support.

Actualy, no, can we just set her on fire and burn the body in a ditch?

Why is it okay to call for a woman to be murdered on here? How come this is the one post on the thread that doesn’t have a “report” button next to it? WTAF?

How come this is the one post on the thread that doesn’t have a “report” button next to it? WTAF?

The button goes when someone uses it.

On the culture one.  I have no issue with elitist culture like opera losing subsidy.  However popular culture needs support.  Theatres, gig spaces, etc

“Well as a Manchester resident of Irish catholic heritage, this is fascinating trying to work out if I’m a racist, a gangster, or both. Hmmmmmmm”

You surprise me binners, seeing as you worked at the nightclub who’s door was run by the people I was referring too (and played their part in its’ demise) and you cycled past the pub where the threats to the BNP were threatened on your commute. I thought you’d be familiar with the local folklore.

I’m not so sure it’s off topic either.

An assertion was made by our resident pollster that because the turn out for the far right in Manchester was so low, the city was somehow immune from the kind of rhetoric the Tories are pumping out. I’m sure similar was said in Scotland, as it was in the Red Wall seats. I think that perspective is complacent. Turkeys voting for Christmas you might say.

Andy Burnhams comments a couple of years back were directed at the same constituency that the Tories are now targeting, so he obviously recognises that Labour’s hegemony in the city is vulnerable to this type of thing, even if some posting on here don’t.

Why is it okay to call for a woman to be murdered on here?

Because people get carried away spending too much time in an echo chamber. There isn’t anything to keep them in check.

An assertion was made by our resident pollster that because the turn out for the far right in Manchester was so low, the city was somehow immune from the kind of rhetoric the Tories are pumping out.

Well that’s bollocks.

I said that I couldn’t see much evidence from actual recent election results that Andy Burnham needed to scrape the gutter for racist votes to win.

You came out with some really weird stuff about left-wing Irish Catholic gangsters, who are now mostly dead, being the reason why people in Manchester don’t vote much for Reform UK and the English Democrats in what are secret ballots.

I don’t know whether you agree that Andy Burnham really needs to scrape the gutter for racist votes to win or not** But apparently that might be because I’m dumb.

Edit: ** Receiving two thirds of the votes in mayoral elections strongly suggests that he doesn’t.

You surprise me binners, seeing as you worked at the nightclub who’s door was run by the people I was referring too (and played their part in its’ demise) and you cycled past the pub where the threats to the BNP were threatened on your commute. I thought you’d be familiar with the local folklore.

@inkster – it wasn’t meant as a serious remark 😉

As you pointed out, I’ve been fully immersed in it all enough to be well aware of the folklore (i could tell you some truly terrifying stories about witnessing the reality of it), but I don’t think it makes Manchester any inherently more or less racist than anywhere else in the UK. Some people are racist, most aren’t. Its an incredibly multicultural city with all the advantages and tensions that brings.

I don’t think for a second that Andy Burnham is racist and I don’t think for a second he was trying to appeal to racists. Can you name me another politician in the country who has a more decisive mandate than 67% of their electorate? He doesn’t need to be courting racists.

He was voicing a perfectly legitimate point that places with already severe issues with severe deprivation and massively overstretched public services, like Rochdale for example, were being effectively used as dumping grounds for large numbers of asylum seekers, with no additional funding or support. Particularly as large, more affluent areas of the country were housing no asylum seekers at all.

That isn’t racism! IMHO what he was doing he was highlighting something that was being exploited by the far right. The massive underfunding of areas where demands on public services is most severe leads to tensions, particularly when people want to stir things up to suit their own agendas

For anyone to be putting Andy and his political instincts into the same category as Braverman and this shower is absolutely preposterous

I have no issue with elitist culture like opera losing subsidy. However popular culture needs support. Theatres, gig spaces, etc

I’m no fan of opera,but I’m not sure you or I should be deciding arts funding because we think something is elitist

All for fair funding, of course.

Fair funding?  Opera gets far more than its share for its audience and the audience is generally affluent.

Compared to grass roots music venues

Binners.  You can deny all ypu want and Burnham used his words carefully to give that room for deniability but it was obvious dog whistle as you agreed at the time

Same sentiment as Braverman.  Much less extreme

I have never agreed with you on this TJ. That only exists in your head along with your weird take on the matter. I have always vehemently disagreed with you on it and I find your obsession with the subject absolutely bizarre.

I’ve explained above what my take on it is and whenever you’re asked to provide evidence of his racism, you can’t.

Now for gods sake will you leave it? You regularly derail threads with this utter nonsense and whataboutery.

This is a thread about the monstrous policies of this government who are demonising immigrants and using foghorns not dog whistles for their racism and you’re banging on, once again, about the mayor of Manchester and your misguided interpretation of one thing he said years ago 🙄

From the article:

It wasn’t always like this. The opening ceremony of the 2012 London Olympics depicted a capacious British culture, accessible to all and appealing in multiple registers. That’s disappeared now.

How very true – on many levels.

And depressing

I think that, from time to time – how far we’ve fallen in little more than a decade. 🙁

Forgotten have you?  I put the direct quotes to you and you agreed.   Disgraceful was what you said.  Years ago mind you.

But yes its a diversion but that does not let him off the hook

I think that, from time to time – how far we’ve fallen in little more than a decade

It truly is a tragic waste of a decade.

I think that, from time to time – how far we’ve fallen in little more than a decade. 🙁

I don’t think we even live in the same country any more.

Its difficult to think of any nation who’s public face to the world and political culture has changed in such an extreme manner in such a short space of time.

When we were all watching the 2012 Olympics could you imagine that only ten years later we’d be seeing our own government openly, proudly even, break international law so they could deport refugees to Rwanda?

It really is utterly depressing and people like Sunak and Braverman are driving us further and further down this far right road

“it wasn’t meant as a serious remark 😉”

No worries, I didn’t take it as such.

Let’s just say Andy Burnhams words were unfortunate, the very real problem of where people are placed is a problem imposed on him largely by the government and as you say, it puts him somewhat between a rock and a hard place.

Wether Manchester is more or less racist than anywhere else is hard to say, though I think the overwhelming support for Labour may mask what lies beneath the surface and as I said, lead to complacency.

It’s easy taking the government and the knuckle draggers to task but the more they move to the right, the easier it is for us not to examine ourselves and maybe look a bit closer to home.

I work in Manchester’s very middle class, right on and virtue signalling Arts sector these days and when I look around me, do I think the sector is Racist?… Hell yes. More so than in other cities? Well from experience I’d have to say yes and could cite examples that satisfy me that it is the case. It doesn’t think it is but I put that down to complacency, well meaning but nevertheless, somewhat ignorant.

I don’t think we even live in the same country any more.

Its difficult to think of any nation who’s public face to the world and political culture has changed in such an extreme manner in such a short space of time.

You maybe do not.  I do.  My nation has not followed that path..   Scotland has remained in more or less the same place  as can be seen by the way this right wing and racist rhetoric gains no traction.  The big difference being that we have political leadership both prepared to call it out and refusing to play the game.   Even the Tories here so not try playing the race card

Its mainly the Tories fault of course but timidity and inaction from labour has not helped

The likes of Braverman should be being laughed at, ridiculed and kept away from high office at all costs. Nowadays it seems the more sensible voices come from the backbenches whilst the nutters are in the ascendancy.

absolutely!

The lunatics took over the asylum on June 24th 2016 and its been downhill at a rate of knots ever since

 I have no issue with elitist culture like opera losing subsidy.

Arts Council England gave the ENO (English National Opera) £11.5M for this year, and I think a £18M funding package over the next 3 years, but it must relocate I think. I agree that the folks that normally go and see opera are affluent, but the people that perform it often aren’t, and that’s what the subsidy is for. I don’t think setting one art against another in a a competition to see which has more worth does anyone any good.

I’d rather be in an environment where all arts are funded properly and available to as wide a group as they can be.

I have no issue with elitist culture like opera losing subsidy.

Who gets to decide where the line is that tips something into your elitist category?

Bleedin’ell, even another right-wing bigoted MP now feels that Braverman has gone too far with her bigotry!

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fpolitics%2Fsuella-braverman-tory-migrants-jonathan-gullis-b2328047.html

The more Braverman opens her mouth the more I believe that she is consumed by the same mentality as the “Coopers” in Goodness Gracious Me.