Suella! Braverman!

She’s on Radio 4 in a minute!

She doesn’t do details does she?

Good interview. She’s the one announcing all this stuff, yet she can’t answer questions about her own initiatives any better than a random down the pub.

^^^

She doesn’t have to because these so-called policies amount to little more than virtue* signalling to a nasty tendency in our society. It is all designed to disguise the failure of this nationalist experiment and push Starmer into a pronouncement about international law and thus out himself as a supposed woke lefty.

This is the level, folks. A sad indictment of a first world nation.

*where hatred of foreigners is considered a virtue.

FFS she is really doubling down on the demonisation of desperate people from overseas;

“I think that the people coming here illegally do possess values which are at odds with our country.

We are seeing heightened levels of criminality when related to the people who’ve come on boats related to drug dealing, exploitation, prostitution.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/26/suella-braverman-small-boat-arrivals-have-values-at-odds-with-our-country

It’s not illegal to claim asylum in the UK. The previous Tory Home Secretary’s parents did precisely that.

And aren’t there laws concerning inciting hatred and hate crimes, how is she getting away with it? Surely she must be on the very edge of what is legal?

Would I get away with publicly declaring that people of East African Asian heritage don’t share British values and have heightened levels of criminality?

I am fairly certain that would be classed as a hate speech. I don’t know why no one is testing the legality of Braverman’s public statements.

Minister yesterday was making it clear that there would be checks needed to make sure we were only allowing people with the right documentation onto the rescue flights out of Sudan…..

I also genuinely wonder where some of her comments stand with regard to promoting hatred. I would love someone to test it….

I’m tempted to call the cops and report her for hate speech. After all, if you witness a crime then it’s your duty to report it to the police. British values and all that.

And aren’t there laws concerning inciting hatred and hate crimes, how is she getting away with it? Surely she must be on the very edge of what is legal?

If we wait patiently, the current Home Secretary is sufficiently over-confident that she will make a mistake and stray across the line.

I see ‘Honest Bob’ Jenrick has also been weighing in with similar inflammatory language to Braverman, that not too long ago would have been the exclusive territory of the BNP, Tommy Robinson and Britain First

This isn't even dogwhistle politics – it's a giant far-right foghorn to poisonous rhetoric, a 'them and us' narrative, and blatant political opportunism. This *is* a caring, compassionate country – and it deserves better than cruel, callous Conservativeshttps://t.co/q15GmX8i3Q

— Caroline Lucas (@CarolineLucas) April 26, 2023

If we wait patiently, the current Home Secretary is sufficiently over-confident that she will make a mistake and stray across the line.

Judging by the way that she keeps ratcheting it up it does seem that way.

According to the Crown Prosecution Service a hate crime is defined as :

‘Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person’s race or perceived race; religion or perceived religion; sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation; disability or perceived disability and any crime motivated by hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender.’

Talking of people not sharing British values and being guilty of high levels of criminality must be getting very close to the definition of “hostility or prejudice”.

This is the line that Burnham took in the mayoral election – not as extreme but the same sentiment.

Burnham said, or implied, that refugees from overseas do not share British values and are guilty of high levels of criminality?

Got a link?

‘Honest Bob’ Jenrick

Presumably accepted British values include conspiring with a tory donor to illegally evade tax on a housing development? Then admit to the illegality (only after being caught, obvs) whilst retaining your seat as a MP and remaining in ministerial positions?

Right you are Bob. If you don’t mind, I’ll be the judge of what I consider British values.

I think Burnham saying that while it’s an overall good, recognising that immigration has different effects in different places is a world away from the Tories and Braverman’s current outpourings isn’t it?

I read those comments from 2016 and honestly it’s like a glimpse into a forgotten calmer more pleasant place when compared to now, and I remember how upset folks were back then about what Burnham said.

I can’t find it in the mainstream media now.  It was obvious at the time.  This from the independent is clearly slanted but even so

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ken-clarke-andy-burnham-is-a-paler-version-of-nigel-farage-following-antiimmigration-comments-a7468571.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/andy-burnham-claimed-eu-immigration-risks-violence-on-the-streets-2016-12?op=1&r=US&IR=T

https://www.revolutionarycommunist.org/britain/labourtrade-unions/6058-andy-burnham-king-of-the-north-or-champagne-socialist

Claiming immigrants undermine communtity cohesion and wanting to refuse asylum seekers  to come to manchester.

Clear dog whistle racism

Sunak, Patel and Braverman represent the most agregious example of gaslighting we have ever seen, they’re a UK version of Clayton Bigsby (Dave Chappelle character).

Mirror, mirror, on the wall, whose the fairest, of them all.

And if anyone thinks that I am implying that they adhere to a hierarchy of complexions then let me be clear, I am not implying it, I am stating it. Let’s be clear their ancestors went to Africa to administer a regime based on exactly that.

Perhaps that’s how they see their role in shaping a post Brexit Britain?

And Jenrick? He’s basically just described Sudanese refugees as ‘canibals’.

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I think Burnham saying that while it’s an overall good, recognising that immigration has different effects in different places is a world away from the Tories and Braverman’s current outpourings isn’t it?

I read those comments from 2016 and honestly it’s like a glimpse into a forgotten calmer more pleasant place when compared to now, and I remember how upset folks were back then about what Burnham said.

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Much milder yes but the same sentiment  Ta for remembering tho that it happened.  too many folk try to deny Burnham ever did this

He thought he might lose the mayoral election and blew his dogwhistle to attract more votes. Pure cynical move.

tj, Since learning that the phrase ‘mainstream Media” was introduced into the lexicon by Joseph Goebbels it try not to use it anymore.

Except when the opportunity arises to point out that the phrase was invented by Joseph Goebels!

TJ first of all Labour governments have always supported immigration controls, certainly in modern times, which is completely reasonable imo.

And secondly Labour governments have always supported racist immigration and nationality laws, which in contrast is totally unacceptable imo.

No, Labour Hasn’t Always Been an Anti-Racist Party

However I have never seen equal comparison of racism within the Labour Party with racism in the Tory Party. Which helps to explain why so many brown and black people tend to vote Labour rather than Tory.

I don’t think that the level of bigotry from ethnic minority Tories has an equivalent in the Labour Party. I think that a racist ethnic minority Tory politician is a very special kind of creature.

and wanting to refuse asylum seekers  to come to manchester.

Hmmm, I remember him saying that it was time to spread the load more evenly, as the local effects of immigration were having on small, poor communities with little resource, and that Manchester had shouldered much of the burden already. I don’t remember him actual saying he wanted to refuse them, although I do remember people suggesting that’s what he’d said. Again though, still a world away from the hateful rhetoric of Braverman which @ernie rightly says is as close to hate speech as I’ve ever heard a Home Secretary saying in my lifetime

Edit; I’m happy to be proved wrong though if you remember different?

I agree with what you say Ernie.

However I have never seen equal comparison of racism within the Labour Party with racism in the Tory Party.

I clearly said a milder version of the same thing.  Not that it was equal.

However the rhetoric from Burnham whilst much milder was for the same purpose – as a dog whistle to racists to get them to vote for him.  Carefully said so as to be deniable but it was very clear what he was doing.  it was in the mayoral election and the polls showed he might lose.  It was clearly calculated as a dogwhistle IMO

Same sentiment for the same purpose as Braverman but much less extreme ( Actually Braverman might believe it.)  I don’t think Burham is actually racist but he clearly made a conscious decision to make that statement to get support from racists – and it worked

Nickc – it was the timing that made it obvious and he used his words carefully for deniability but IMO it was clear what he was doing

anyway – back to the delightful Braverman

“Claiming immigrants undermine communtity cohesion and wanting to refuse asylum seekers to come to manchester.”

Someone on here was posting about a school teacher from North Manchester saying that since African refugees and migrants had moved to the area, school open days had been jam packed with parents demanding to know how well their offspring were doing? demanding that their maths skills were up to scratch no doubt..

If you are making schools better then how can you be damaging social cohesion?

Likewise in Ordsall (Salford) near to where I live, a once feral, almost whites only sink estate, (that you couldn’t cycle past without having things thrown at you) has become a far more civilised (and prosperous) place since arrival of immigrants from overseas.

Perhaps the fear on Burnhams part was that Manchester has always been a red castle protected by a red wall and as tthe red wall had just crumbled, he was looking to prop up the castle’s foundations by appealing to the lowest common denominator.

I don’t think Burham is actually racist but he clearly made a conscious decision to make that statement to get support from racists – and it worked

So you don’t think Andy Burnham is a racist but you think the voters of Manchester are!

I have just checked and in the last two Manchester mayoral elections and the combined UKIP/Reform UK/English Democrat vote was about 4% or less.

That’s not what I expect from a hardcore racist city. Although as Andy Burnham won so easily maybe he got all the racist votes?

the phrase ‘mainstream Media” was introduced into the lexicon by Joseph Goebbels

Sounds like bobbins to me. I can’t see a plausible source for the claim, beyond a couple of guys in Twitter saying that Ian Hislop said it.

Ian Hislop was the source for me too, I saw him interviewed and he cited a specific quote Goebbels. I took a punt and trusted him.

“So you don’t think Andy Burnham is a racist but you think the voters of Manchester are!”

Sorry to butt in but I moved to Manchester from Oxfordshire when I was 20 and he lived here for the last 35 years.

I’d ask you to name a black politician or council member or people in prominent positions but I know you’re politicaly well informed so could probably furnish me with an answer but for the rest of us, if they do exist they are invisible.

As invisible as white people were at the BLM protest in Manchester. One of the characteristics of the protests worldwide was that they were supported by people of all races. Not in Manchester they weren’t.

I’ll take those voting figures you’ve mentioned and give you similar from a Red Wall seat a decade ago. I don’t think the high turn out for Labour in Manchester signifies a lack of racial prejudice within the population, I see it as a case of things being swept under the carpet and it only takes a Dominic Cummings type character to come along and lift up the corner of that carpet for things to begin to turn.

I’m not in the least bit complacent about this. Minorities don’t have anyone to speak for them in Manchester, they don’t even have a voice to drown out.

I am fairly sure that the term “mainstream media” is quite a recent development and previously it was referred to the “mass media”.

I have no idea if German term more closely resembles mainstream or mass but whatever it is I would be surprised if it hadn’t existed before Joseph Goebbels’s elevation to reichministry of public enlightenment and propaganda.

I’ll take those voting figures you’ve mentioned and give you similar from a Red Wall seat a decade ago.

In the mayoral elections two years ago the combined Reform UK/English Democrat vote was a touch above 4%, Andy Burnham received about 67% of the vote.

Manchester might well be a deeply racist city which explains the alleged lack of black politicians, I don’t know. But I suspect that it isn’t vastly different to other UK cities and the poor electoral support for fairly racist parties doesn’t suggest that it is. The BNP don’t even stand candidates.

But that is all irrelevant to the point, with two thirds of the votes it doesn’t suggest that Andy Burnham needs to scrape the gutter for the racist vote.

Unless of course it is being suggested that he enjoys that level of support precisely because racists so enthusiasticly vote for him.

Which doesn’t sound like a very convincing scenerio to me. TJ seems convinced that Andy Burnham isn’t a racist, do the people of Manchester really think that he is?

It’s not about wether Burnham is racist or not (he isn’t).

One of the reasons that far right parties struggled to get a foothold in the City over the last few decades is that they would have been shot if they had tried. Seriously…

South Manchester streets (and club doors) were run by a notorious family with Irish heritage and republican sympathies. They also attended anti fascist events and fought toe to head with the far right. When the BNP tried to open an office in Whalley Range they were alegedly invited for a drink and told they were welcome to open an office there if they wanted but…

Similarly in Salford, the gang leaders there were quite influenced by left wing politics so also had an anti fascist stance.

Manchester having such a large Irish poluation probably influences things a bit as well, some other towns around the North West with less of an Irish influence have become home to some Unionists from NI and have always been more fertile ground for the far right.

Well it’s good to hear that despite South Manchester being run by a notorious Irish gangster family that they are at least violently anti-fascist, and won’t let people vote for racist parties. Gawd bless them. And the leftie left-footer gangsters in Salford.

Quite how they check up whether people in Manchester have voted for the English Democrats, for example, I don’t know – presumably Manchester still has secret ballots for elections.

Edit: I am assuming it’s a shoo-in for Andy Burnham and that he doesn’t need to rake the gutter for votes? Which was my only point.

https://www.gbnews.com/news/suella-braverman-sudan-news-migrant-asylum-uk

Questioned over the possibility of Sudanese people being “turned away” upon reaching the UK, she said: “If you’re suggesting people might get on a small boat and come here, that would be totally unacceptable.

“There are safe and legal routes that are on offer”.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/suella-braverman-rules-out-introducing-safe-routes-for-sudan-asylum-seekers-12866934

Suella Braverman has ruled out introducing a safe and legal route for asylum seekers in Sudan to seek refuge in the UK.

The tories just seem to be getting worse and worse the longer they go un-punished.

I’m more naturally a Lib-dem than Labour, but in my area, I think I’ll have to hold my nose, yet again in the local elections, and vote labour as the best chance of sending a message and hopfully kicking a tory or two out.

These sub-human, frankly evil people need to be stopped.

Manchester is racist now?! Good lord, what will be racist next? The M25? Rutland Water?

I look forward to the day when everything is racist. Then it might reset and we can go back to being normal. You know, when actual racists were racist rather than just anything and anyone you don’t like or agree with.

Manchester is racist now?!

Apparently not thanks to Irish gangsters. Otherwise yes. Apparently.

Ian Hislop was the source for me too, I saw him interviewed and he cited a specific quote Goebbels. 

Are you sure he wasn’t referring to lügenpresse, “the lying press”, which was a term often used by the Nazis and Goebbels in particular, and repopularised by MAGA fans?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying_press

Quite – agree with Ernie here:

And aren’t there laws concerning inciting hatred and hate crimes, how is she getting away with it? Surely she must be on the very edge of what is legal?

There’s a reason why Braverman is doing this.

You’ll see Nikki Haley doing it very soon too.

I think “I hear you’re a racist now Father” is one of the greatest comedy lines ever written.

I can’t imagine ever tiring of watching that clip.

Those gang leaders are mostly dead now but did have an influence on keeping the BNP out of Manchester throgh the 80’s and 90’s. I was trying to be serious with you ernie but there’s not much point really.

Growing up down south, the north always had a reputation for being racist and when I moved here it didn’t dissapoint. There’s lots of things I like about living here but the fact that it’s markedly more racist up here is something I’ve just had to price in.

So I was less surprised than many on here when the red wall crumbled and I’m not complacent about the possibility of the right wing getting the footing up here that was denied to them in previous decades.

I know you’re only allowed to mention racism on here if you’re using it as a stick with which to beat the Tories so I’ll shut up about it.

And no, I’m not calling anyone racist either. (Though if thats what you were about to type, then you might want to take a good look at yourself in the mirror.