Would it be ok to feed beefburgers to swans though? I dunno.

could be risky. they’d break your arm if they didn’t like ’em

The insistence on calling the creatures “battery cows” when they are of course, nothing of the sort, highlights the problem inherent in trying to reason with numpties who would rather bang their own particularly noisy drum, than consider the evidence…

The insistence on calling the creatures “battery cows” when they are of course, nothing of the sort,

What would you call thousands of cows in the same building?

highlights the problem inherent in trying to reason with numpties

Do you really need to stoop to name calling?

I don’t understand why you would support such regressive farming practices like this, when what we have already works fine. As some have pointed out, they want to eat £1 steak every night and pay 5p less for a pint of milk. If thats your priority in life then fine, but it doesn’t make it right, and is in fact the stem of the problem in the first place.

I rest my case.

I rest my case.

Yes, the name calling was a high point to leave!

regressive farming practices

Not exactly sure what a “regressive farming practice” is, but I think the point people are making is that apart from some anthropomorphic views on what constitutes a happy cow you haven’t actually been able to explain what’s wrong with intensive dairy farming. Then again, looking at the Compassion in World Farming and WSPA web sites they don’t seem to have a clue either.

Living in a big shed? Pah! They could be in a French Veal crate

Life of bloody luxury! They don’t know they’re born!

Some people on here want to watch their step. This could happen:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrOBqn0asug[/video]

I reckon those cows will live a happier, more contented life than most of the people who will be drinking the milk they produce.

As long as 60m people need feeding this kind of farming will have to continue and all that we can do is make it humane, it’s never going to be Bessie in a field full of bluebells again.

It’s naive to think that we could all live the river cottage life, we had to during the war and we could not feed the nation without assistance and there were 10 million less of us.

im not so sure that “this kind of farming will have to continue”

in the same way that im struggling to see how this innovative new approach can be considered regressive.

this is a small piece in a big puzzle, we either work out how to continue to live our lives how they are – but with an increasing population, or we look at changing the lives and habits of the population

whichever way we go there will be mistakes, but these have to be made to be shown to be ‘incorrect’

it will go ahead, if it works financially, it will continue and spread

if you personally dont like it, oppose it with your wallet.

i watched the program the other day, it is unfair but the farmer was right.

we need this level because us the consumers dont want to pay for our meat! we want to pay as little as possible and this is what its come to because we wont pay an extra pound or so.

the farmer of “free range” said he was amazed how good the conditions were…..

this kind of farming will have to continue

Not necessarily, the retail industry wastes hundreds of thousands of tonnes each year through poor planning. If we decrease waste, we wouldn’t need to resort to this type of farming.

As long as shoppers are happy with Supermarket shopping and people want low cost meat, eggs, poultry etc intensive farming is necessary.

It’s all very well to talk about being happy to pay 10 quid for a free range super chicken or significantly more for a cut of beef but there are millions of people out there who are not happy to pay more, want to feed their families animal products and frankly don’t think about the process that gets it to their table.

This farm is unatural but intensive farming is. I’m not sure it is any more cruel than other farms.

Would it be ok to feed beefburgers to swans though? I dunno.

not if they are waste beefburgers as it is against ABP Regs…

http://www.wspa.org.uk/latestnews/2011/Environment_Agency_blow_to_mega_dairy_plans.aspx

ah bless meat eaters get all upset about animal welfare. Obviosly not so upset that you will stop killing them though.

The insistence on calling the creatures “battery cows” when they are of course, nothing of the sort,

What would you call thousands of cows in the same building?

They run on grass/feed.

ah bless meat eaters get all upset about animal welfare

Not all of us. I only looked at this thread to see why it had so many replies.

Obviosly not so upset that you will stop killing them though.

Last animal I killed was a lizard. (Didn’t eat it)

Ah, glad to see Junkyard has finally made an appearance on this one. 🙂

I’ll just add my tuppence to his wise words.

The debate goes something like: are cattle better off reared in fields or big sheds?

Being as how we don’t actually need to consume animals or animal products the logical option I would add to this is that cows are better off not being reared at all.

tend to leave these debates to be honest I do find it odd how sentimental meat eaters get yet not enough to stop killing it as if that bit is not the cruelest part of the industry

Also like the way they they will eat a cow but not a horse never really understood that either
For the record my view is that eating meat per se is not necessarily cruel if you are alion for example- IMHO once you industralise it / farm it it is inherently cruel

i’d eat a horse! in fact i’d much prefer to eat a horse than a cow…. horses look tasty. cow meat never excites me.

as for chickens…. kill em all, cover them in periperi and force feed me until either chicken are wiped out or i am. evil beady-eyed pecky beasts.

i’d eat cat and dog too, in fact… i’d probably eat human if i was in a situation that required it. throw on some reggae reggae sauce and job done!

The insistence on calling the creatures “battery cows” when they are of course, nothing of the sort,

Could you define what a battery cow is then please and state how these ones are different?

Anyone who has worked on a farm with cattle can tell you that they certainly appear happier when allowed outside, these zero grazing systems no doubt keep the animals healthier in the physical sense though.

No, I am not a lion, which is a pure carnivore. I am a human, which is an omnivore. There’s quite a difference in the teeth from vegetarian species you see

LHS – Member

Muppet.

—

LHS – Member

Do you really need to stoop to name calling?

Ah, irony.

What a great thread, I missed it first time around.

The problem, as I see it, is that LHS has an image in his (I assume) head of ‘battery farmed’ cows, flank to flank with no space for a good moo. Pumped full of drugs and generally given a daily kicking, etc. He’s arguing against this and, to be fair, I don’t blame him, I’d argue against something like that as well.

However. Far as I can tell, that image has no bearing in reality. EU legislation prohibits a lot of the practices that would be “mistreatment”; also, as others have said, routinely filling them full of antibiotics would be pointless and a waste of money, and they still have space to move around.

What it boils down to, then, is “cows being kept in buildings, how cruel.” Now, I’ve no idea what effect a lack of sunlight would have on your average bovine (assuming no-one’s invented windows yet), whether they’d be ill or distressed, or whether they wouldn’t give a toss either way. It may be cruel, it may not be, but I’d certainly want to find out for sure before leaping to conclusions based on nothing more than “how would you like it” – I’m not a cow so I’m in no position to judge.

If this thread has served any positive purpose, it’s that I’d now like to know more about what’s actually being proposed (as opposed to the Daily Mail-esque ‘cow car park’ headline).

Junkyard > I don’t agree that farming is “inherently” cruel. I’m sure some are and some aren’t.

Ultimately though, it’s supply and demand – will people pay extra for ‘ethical’ farming methods that are inherently more expensive than their mass-produced variants? Sadly, it’d seem not to be the case, though I suspect that people might be more convinced with a bit of advertising and education (does anyone still by battery eggs, outside of the underclasses that can’t afford anything else?) The problem then is that you get the PETA “meat is murder” nutcase brigade frothing about the poor ikkle baa-lambs and it undermines the entire argument.

MMMMMMM…..poor ikkle baa-lamb….

Far as I can tell, that image has no bearing in reality

Source?

mint for lamb
apple for pork
red wine for cow?

What’s with all this increase food production to feed the chubbies?

The solution is simple? Eat less and reduce human population or let them starve. No need all this high tech shite to grow cows.

Simple.

😈

(assuming no-one’s invented windows yet)

I’m a battery cow, and Windows 7 was my idea.

I don’t agree that farming is “inherently” cruel. I’m sure some are and some aren’t.

I think you can have less cruel or more cruel but not cruelty free. remember all domesticated animals were once free and are now no longer wild and are “imprisoned ” in fields, selectivelty bred – often by artificial means these days-, can have incredibly short life spans, or immensly hard workingones – milk cattle who have vast quantities of medicines to keep disease down due to over work /clos eproximity to each other, and exist simply to be killed to be eaten. This is some way away from the zebra or Buffalo roaming the plains as in the wild. I dont think there is some sort of moral good being done to the animals by farming and cant really see how you could – of course some is mor ecruel than others and you can either accept this to eat meat or not as is your opwn moral choice.
there would be more veggies if we made everyone grow their own cruelty free meat though as a lot f meat eaters would see the cruelty at the point of the kill I suspect – perhaps we should make them collect live chickens froma battery farm ? to see what the ocst of cheap meat is?

Chewkw making the most sense so far.

i want everyone to think long and hard about that*.

we can’t feed 7billion people with cows that look like this:

eat less meat, and stop having so many kids.

(*no offence meant Chewie, your posts are often baffling, entertaining, but baffling)

Chewkw making the most sense so far.

Agreed, people need to be educated that eating there Tesco value steak for dinner every night is not sustainable and it the root cause of the problem.

‘root cause of the problem’

nothing to do with 7billion people then? – actually, i’ve just thought about this, and you’re probably right, our demand for cheap meat/food has a lot to answer for.

Far as I can tell, that image has no bearing in reality
Source?

The countryfle programme that had the USA super dairy with the UK dairy farmer on it, who was in the process of closing his dairy farm down, saying how happy the coos looked??

According to a 2006 report by the Livestock, Environment And Development Initiative, the livestock industry is one of the largest contributors to environmental degradation worldwide, and modern practices of raising animals for food contributes on a “massive scale” to air and water pollution, land degradation, climate change, and loss of biodiversity. The initiative concluded that “the livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global.”[1] In 2006 FAO estimated that meat industry contributes 18% of all emissions of greenhouse gasses. This figure was challenged in 2009 by two World-Watch researchers who estimated a 51% minimum,[2] however this paper has not been peer reviewed.[3]

Animals fed on grain need more water than grain crops.[4] In tracking food animal production from the feed through to the dinner table, the inefficiencies of meat, milk and egg production range from a 4:1 energy input to protein output ratio up to 54:1.[4] The result is that producing animal-based food is typically much less efficient than the harvesting of grains, vegetables, legumes, seeds and fruits for direct human consumption.[4]

Relatedly, the production and consumption of meat and other animal products is associated with the clearing of rainforests, resource depletion, air and water pollution, land and economic inefficiency, species extinction, and other environmental harms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_effects_of_meat_production
The use of water is also huge for meat production compared to vegetables by a factor of about 200-300 times more.

LHS >

Source?

Good question – what’s your source?

I’m basing that opinion on what other people have said – that a large part of what you’ve described is inherently illegal in the UK by EU law. Even if I’m wrong doesn’t automatically mean you’re right – it then falls into the category of “we don’t know” unless you can prove otherwise. Which, so far, you’ve systematically failed to do; you’ve made assumptions and then shouted down anyone who’s questioned you.

Junkyard >

there would be more veggies if we made everyone grow their own cruelty free meat though

Did I fail to mention I’ve been veggie for almost 20 years? Fancy that. (-:

The countryfle programme that had the USA super dairy with the UK dairy farmer on it, who was in the process of closing his dairy farm down, saying how happy the coos looked??

Healthy maybe, not sure about happy from what I recall of the programme.
If you shut a cow in a shed for a few months over winter then let it out in spring its fairly easy to tell what they prefer.

Oh, and,

I was born and raised on a dairy farm, we shut up shop when I was fairly young but my folks have been farmers for generations. My ancestors used to milk diplodocii. Probably.

If you shut a cow in a shed for a few months over winter then let it out in spring its fairly easy to tell what they prefer.

You could make the same argument if you shut a cow outside for a few months over winter, unless your preference was for pre-frozen beef.