So this is basically about you wanting to stop the view from your kitchen being ruined. Nice.

LHS – Member

Why should I?

If you don’t care about animal welfare and sustainable farming then you shouldn’t![/quote]

Selectively quoting people isn’t helping your case here. Given the arguments you’ve shown on this thread, I certainly won’t be signing the petition.

Blinkered? Pot kettle black!

My experience comes from getting my hands dirty, shoveling sh1t, ploughing fields, pulling 14hrs days for wks at a time, DOING THE DIRTY HARD WORK that puts food on YOUR table (Ok you pay for it but its thanks to the likes of me & others who do this work that makes your food available to you).

I can guarantee you that the vast majority of farm workers care deeply for their charges well-being, more than you will ever realise unless some day you get up close & personal with the industry you are trying to demonise.

ps Im out of here – Ive got more important things to do..

Nice debating skills, try and divert attention!

Which kitchen anyway? I live in 2 different countrys so you will need to be more specific?

Given the arguments you’ve shown on this thread, I certainly won’t be signing the petition.

Your choice, and how am I selectively quoting? Please explain?

http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/livestock/wspa-continues-campaign-against-nocton-super-dairy/35248.article

Neil Darwent, a Somerset dairy farmer with a herd of 400 dairy cows, also spoke out against Nocton.

“I am a farmer and have no wish to cause trouble for fellow farmers. But I believe farming and food production has becoming too concerned with creating short term profits rather than securing a truly sustainable source of food for our nation.

Nice debating skills, try and divert attention!

Which kitchen anyway? I live in 2 different countrys so you will need to be more specific?

I was actually against this before for a number of reasons, none of which being animal welfare. Since this thread brought it to my attention again and I’ve done further research, I shall be actively supporting the unit.

I shall be actively supporting the unit.

Why? What changed your mind?

The only solution is culling the human. Keep the maggots human population manageable low to maintain resources. Swine we are. 😈

To change ‘tack’:

I was surprised the supermarkets didn’t seem to be supporting the plans though, although I’m sure as soon as one of the big 4 did the others would quickly (and quietly) follow.

The main reason the supermarkets won’t like this (and the Tomato Farm also on the Beeb) is that they move the supplier/customer relationship back towards the supplier – and the Supermarkets like been ‘boss’.

As for the cow farm, certainly looked cleaner than most of the shoddy farms I’ve seen.

Signed. I only buy organic dairy stuff so am voting with wallet too.

these mega dairies could actually produce ‘organic’ milk – nothing about organic means outdoors.

if the diary industry does not move to new methods we will not have an UK milk industry (yes the supermarkets are probably killing the price) and ultimately we will be importing 100% of our milk from all over the place with even less control on how animals are cared for..

The video on the tv of the mega dairies (sorry not been able to go to the states to see, though would like to ) the cows look quite happy… they seems to spend just as much time sitting about chewing the cud as they would without a roof. Lot of cows spend winter in doors now anyhow, plus on the mega diaries they decide themselves when to toddle off for milking.

additionally the move to semi outdoor sheds allows better management of slurry and as such it can be better collected and then digested on site to produce biogas for energy production, further reducing the impact of milk production.

may even help with the control of TB in cattle.. something that is a real issue for farmers

just my thoughts..

thanks for clearing up the ‘organic’ word for us rootes1, that really gets my goat that one.

these mega dairies could actually produce ‘organic’ milk – nothing about organic means outdoors

Organic refers to the process of treating animals humanely, minimising environmental impact and reducing the presence of synthetic chemicals in milk, and food.

So unlike the mega-dairies, the cattle are only given antibiotics when needed (which is less than mega-dairies due to the poor conditions they are kept in). They also don’t spray the fields with chemical pesticides on the grass.

No organic cow can be kept indoors all year round. They have more space for grazing which keeps them healthier.

Does anyone else posting on this thread live on a cattle farm?

Your choice, and how am I selectively quoting? Please explain?

Because by only quoting the bit “why should I?” you’re selectively ignoring all the preceding text which makes it quite clear the poster does care about animal welfare, and does care about the quality of the meat/milk produced. The quote in its entirety is:

But anyway, if it’s no different as far as the cows are concerned (and that does seem to be the case), then as long as the meat and milk tastes good and contains all the proper nutrients, contented cows, contented me.

I really don’t care which…

Why should I?

It’s not just debating skills: you’ve ruined your point by coming across as a fanatic, unwilling to see the other side of the argument (or even consider that there could possibly be another side).

I shall be actively supporting the unit.

Why? What changed your mind?

You kinda did.

Organic refers to the process of treating animals humanely, minimising environmental impact and reducing the presence of synthetic chemicals in milk, and food.

AFAIK the definition of “organic” includes nothing about the humane treatment of animals or minimising environmental impact – although many vendors will (I assume) try to enforce/include those concepts too.

No organic cow can be kept indoors all year round.

which organic standard says that?

There was no text before it!

Mr Woppit – Member
Why should I?

Posted 17 hours ago #

Perhaps you should read the thread properly!

You kinda did.

Crikey, how weak minded! 😯

if you listen very carefully you can hear a select few STWrs frantically googling the organic standards for cattle.

is imported ‘organic’ produce better or worse than home grown produce that doesnt meet the ‘organic’ standard, when you take into account the distribution costs and the effect on the economy?

No organic cow can be kept indoors all year round.

You really are making this up as you go along

soil assoc dairy cattle standards:

section 11

http://www.soilassociation.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=ic4qKgG2aiM%3d&tabid=353

need to graze would require cows to go outdoors

of so i parlty take my comments about organic and under roofs…

http://www.organicfarmers.uk.com/licensees/farmersandgrowers/technical_leaflets/pdf/TL%20110%20Fast%20Track%20Milk.pdf

though if you read it seems that the food they eat is organic and creating an organic pasture is a means to an end, i don’t think a mega dairy would be precluded from producing organic milk if welfare standards would be met and feed was organic..

also obviously basing my view on what i think farms in the uk look like:

You really are making this up as you go along

Nice blanket statement, care to explain why?

Nice blanket statement, care to explain why?

Have a look at this

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soilassociation.org%2FLinkClick.aspx%3Ffileticket%3DfwLb%252FW%252FRKdA%253D%26tabid%3D463&rct=j&q=keeping%20organic%20cow&ei=MTQsTYvWJ87qOcnTuMcK&usg=AFQjCNEHCL8XBVAWxorI9tbuzOGob5kXGg&cad=rja

Can I keep organic cows in a cubicle shed?
Stalls or cubicles can be used for housing organic animals provided the cows
have free access to them and there is an adequate lungeing area. Unless
otherwise agreed with the certification body there should be 5% more cubicles
than cattle.
If you have concrete based cubicles they must be bedded or fitted with
suitable cushioned materials such as rubber mats.

Perhaps you should read the thread properly!

Perhaps you should, “Mr Woppit” was repeating the final line of his earlier post just minutes before.

if you listen very carefully you can hear a select few STWrs frantically googling the organic standards for cattle.

lol, I’ll admit I did check before replying – it confirmed what I already knew, “organic” has nothing to do with living standards.

mega farms do not use cubicles fixed for cattle

if you look at the video:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00br05p

they seem to be able to walk around, move to their bed when they wish to chew cud and then they can go to feed when they choose

having said that.. in the US calves are treated worse than they would be in the UK

in the US they do use stalls for calves, though in the EU the size of them would be banned

Uplink, ever thought to read the sources you are linking too.

Have a read of page 18 where it states that

all organic livestock must be based on grazing

Muppet. 🙄

Crikey, how weak minded!

Not really,you are just coming across as a bit,well preachy.It is like this,I unlike you obviously,have to source my food as cheaply as possible.Therefore,while I feel that ill treatment of animals is wrong,my primary consideration is feeding my family.That outweighs any sympathy for cows with vertigo I am afraid.I think you will find in the wider world(ie not here)that the majority of people feel the same way.

Duckman, your choice. Cash before animal welfare. Organic food does not have to be more expensive, especially if sourced locally.

anyway, the megafarm will be aiming at the other 96% of the milk market

doing it bigger, faster and cheaper
as a mass producer lets hope they have some sway over what the supermarkets pay

Seen dairy cows post-milking? They look haggard/awful.

Don’t bloody drink milk I say.

lol, I’ll admit I did check before replying – it confirmed what I already knew, “organic” has nothing to do with living standards.

Have to take back what I said, LHS is right on this one.. Work is so dull even reading up about organic standards is more interesting:

Organic stockfarming is a land-related activity. Except where authorised by way of
exception in these Standards, livestock must have access to a free-range area and the
number of animals per unit of area must be limited to ensure integrated management of
livestock and crop production on the production unit, so minimising any form of pollution,
in particular of the soil and of surface and ground water.

From http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/growing/organic/standards/pdf/compendium.pdf

Of course, the definition of “free-range area” is probably open to interpretation, and limiting numbers could mean anything.

I’ve been reading this thread from the beginning. Before, I did’t know anyhting about these cattle farms, and if someone had asked me to sign a petition against them, I probably would have done. But now I’m a bit better infomed. The thing is, people who want to oppose this sort of thing only present their side of the argumnet, often in the emotive, blinkered way seen here (Yes you, LHS) What you say is perfectly valid as a point of view, but it is no more than that: A point of view. Other points of view are available. FACTS are available.

I shall be actively supporting the unit.

Now, whilst I wouldn’t go that far, now knowing more than I did about these units, I believe the animals will be treated humanely and the practice is nowhere near as bad as the emotive “US-style cow factory farm “ title suggests. Not even close.

So thanks for bringing this to my attention LHS. I’ve learnt something and you’ve opened up a discussion that’s changed my opinion.

Other points of view are available

Of course, yet you never see petitions calling for more of these battery cow farms do you?

Next time your in a supermarket- feel the breast(!) of the whole chickens. Note how utterly slack and pillow-like they are now. No density or firmness – even the ‘free range lying bollocks’ ones.

It says to me these chickens never move so they never build any firmness

🙁

yet you never see petitions calling for more of these battery cow farms do you?

I would have thought that’s called a ‘planning application’…….

It says to me these chickens never move so they never build any firmness

Chickens, last time I checked, didn’t walk on their breast. It’s usual for them to use their legs for that you know. A free range chicken, last time I ate one, seemed to have bigger meatier legs though…… 😉

But now I’m a bit better infomed.

informed by who, can i ask? if you’re referring to the posts by the “animal welfare expert” it might be a good idea to check his credentials/allegiances otherwise you’re no better informed than if you’d listened to LHS.

PETA are animal welfare experts too, and look how many healthy animals they destroy

as said above, maybe the best approach is to just stop drinking the stuff…

All this has reminded me of Alan Partridge on modern farming methods

Alan Partridge: You are a big posh sod with plums in your mouth, and the plums have mutated and they have got beaks. You make pigs smoke. You feed beef burgers to swans. You have big sheds, but nobody’s allowed in. And in these sheds you have 20ft high chickens, and these chickens are scared because the don’t know why they’re so big, and they’re going, “Oh why am I so massive?” and they’re looking down at all the little chickens and they think they’re in an aeroplane because all the other chickens are so small. Do you deny that? No, I think his silence speaks volumes.

You feed beef burgers to swans

😆

What a line. ‘Beefburgers to swans’ ffs!

Would it be ok to feed beefburgers to swans though? I dunno.