Stop the first US-style cow factory farm being built in the UK

Signed.

Seems like a crappy existence for the cattle.

Won’t the meat be crappy too if the muscles are never exercised ?

trailmonkey – that’s all veal is, albeit from calves.

Pretty tasty though

The fact remains that if a cow was “Unhappy” or “creully treated” it wouldn’t produce sufficient milk to be provfitable.

Cows are kept in a “post pregnant state” so they continue producing milk. Even if it’s not hormones, or whatever is banned in the EU, some chemical is keeping them that way. Because they are kept in this state they become extremely tired and suffer because of it, at which point they are killed and replaced with the next lot. They never reach old age as such.

Additionally, the cows are kept on a regular dose of antibiotics to keep disease at bay. Once it has infiltrated the group it’s hard to stamp out. Any species, cow or otherwise, kept in large groups will be vulnerable to disease spreading quickly.

Humans are becoming more and more resistant to anti-biotics because they consume so much of it, in small doses, through eating meat and dairy products on a daily basis.

Having a “mega dairy” exacerbates the existing issues of dairy and meat farming.

trailmonkey – that’s all veal is, albeit from calves.

Pretty tasty though

A little different though as veal is from young animals not older, tougher beasts.

Cows are kept in a “post pregnant state” so they continue producing milk. Even if it’s not hormones, or whatever is banned in the EU, some chemical is keeping them that way.

😆

They give birth to a calf, and then lactate, just like any other mammal. Just instead of the milk going to the calf, it ends up on your cornflakes. Then they are ‘dried out’, inseminated again, and the cycle continues.

partypants – I’m afraid you’re just quoting further examples of emotive half truths

Cows are kept in a “post pregnant state” so they continue producing milk. Even if it’s not hormones, or whatever is banned in the EU, some chemical is keeping them that way

That’s what tends to happen in the wild tbh – animals get pregnant, rear young, then as soon as possible get pregnant again – it’s how they survive in a hostile world. There’s little artificial about it

Additionally, the cows are kept on a regular dose of antibiotics to keep disease at bay. Once it has infiltrated the group it’s hard to stamp out.

No offence but that’s completely wrong. Sub therapeutic antibiotic used to be used in other countries in other species to help promote “healthy growth” but that has been banned in the EU for decades. Cows that are ill are treated with anti-biotics – anything more than that would be wastefull and prohibitively expensive. I think you’re getting confused with vaccination?

Humans are becoming more and more resistant to anti-biotics because they consume so much of it, in small doses, through eating meat and dairy products on a daily basis.

Again, wrong. There is no hard evidence to suggest that antibiotic use in the veterinary field contributes to resistance in human disease. Very few modern veterinary antibiotics are used in human medicine these days and numerous restrictions/regulations are in place to ensure farm animals under anti-biotic treatment do not contribute any milk/meat to the human food chain.

There are those blinkers again! 🙄

Cows on antibiotics have their milk dumped, they then have to go on withdrawal for a while until the antibiotics are cleared, then the milk is added back into the farm yield, so this is yet more ill-informed bunkem..

I’m more concerned about the slurry pits and things getting into water courses.

Yes there are regulations. Regulations mean diddly-squat when something bad happens, by accident or on purpose. This happens all too frequently.

If the cows are happy and well-treated then I have no issue. After all I generally use soya milk 😀 Pigs, on the other hand, I wouldn’t like to see in this kind of arrangement as I think they require more outdoorsy areas for doing piggy stuff.

Then I’m also concerned about access to the land so I can use me bike!

There are those blinkers again!

Unfortunately I’m beginning to realise it’s not me who has the blinkers on but you. You clearly have strong opinions and are unable to accept facts given to you as evidence to the contrary.

I would still like to know what qualifies you as an expert in farming? With all due respect, I do class myself as someone well versed in these matters and qualified to make judgements on animal welfare as it happens to be my job.

There are those blinkers again!

reasoned, knowlegable argument vs OMG this is horrible. !!!!

I know who has the blinkers on in my opinion.

I do class myself as someone well versed in these matters and qualified to make judgements on animal welfare as it happens to be my job

Well, as a trained professional, if you think that keeping animals in multi-storey concrete sheds in unnatural conditions, with no access to exercise or fresh grass outdoors, and essentially living in the most dire conditions ever then god help us. (IMPO of course).

fbk thanks for your well informed responses. Can everone else who has never milked a cow just sign (or not) the petition and move on.

Someone’s already made a movie of this thread.

Cows belong in fields

If allowed to proceed, the latest proposal from Nocton Dairies Ltd. would see the construction of the largest dairy farm in the UK. In an undertaking more than 30 times the size of the average UK dairy farm, this proposal would initially see 3,770 animals kept indoors for the majority of their lives with little or no access to pasture. Each animal would be expected to yield 10,000 litres of milk per year (43% higher than the current national average).

The amount of energy these animals need to expend in order to produce 10,000 or more litres of milk each per year is equivalent to a human being running a half marathon every day for ten months of the year.

Research shows that this type of ‘zero-grazing’ system is associated with increased risk of many health problems including lameness, mastitis, reproductive problems and a number of bacterial infections.

But further cause for concern lies in the details. The figure of 3,770 animals is just a starting point. Nocton Dairies has gone on record saying it will build the herd up to the original 8,100 as soon as it is practicable.

Lameness, mastitis and infertility
The higher the milk yield cows are pushed to produce, the higher the risk of lameness. Higher milk yield also has a known genetic correlation with the incidence of mastitis – a painful and prevalent udder condition.

Infertility among high-yielding dairy cows is increasing, resulting in early culling. It has been linked to stress, poor body condition and the demands of high milk production on the cows’ general health.

Diet
Cattle are adapted to high fibre diets based on foods such as grass. High-yielding cows have to be fed a more concentrated diet with additional cereal which can lead to digestive problems such as acidity in the part of the stomach, known as the ‘rumen’. This can lead to acidosis and painful lameness from laminitis.

In addition:

Fix the food chain

Factory farming demands massive amounts of soy – a key ingredient in animal feed. Most of this comes from huge soy plantations in Latin America.

Vast areas of land have to be cleared to grow the soy, causing:

deforestation
greenhouse gas emissions
the loss of valuable wildlife habitat.

if you think that keeping animals in multi-storey concrete sheds in unnatural conditions, with no access to exercise or fresh grass outdoors, and essentially living in the most dire conditions ever then god help us

I give up. See my previous responses to all the above comments for a “professional”, informed, opinion based on my experience and education. Oh, and many of these “zero grazing” units do actually still feed grass – it’s cut daily and either fed fresh, or stored as silage/hay/straw.

I’m certainly not saying that huge units containing thousands of cows is ideal, or in any way the “right way forwards”. There are many other questions that need answering (effect on the surrounding water/plant life, financial impact on other farms & the surrounding area etc etc et…). What I am saying is that you are actually hindering your personal argument by using unsubstantiated, emotive, and in some cases completely incorrect quotes and comments.

lifer – again you are quoting sources that, whilst giving some true information, mix it up with over exaggeration and emotion to cloud the actual underlying facts.

Yes, higher yielding cows are more susceptible to some diseases. IMHO too much emphasis has been place on increasing yield at the expense of other problems (confirmation, fertility, etc). This is a problem that has been present for years, to the point where a lot of farmers are actually returning to more traditional breeds of cattle to produce better quality milk. Unfortunately, because the main concern of the consumer is the price they pay rather than the quality of the product, these farms are always going to struggle to make a good living.
This argument has nothing to do with the presence of the larger units though – if anything the larger units are “kinder” to these high yielding cows as they are geared up to cater for them with increased frequency of milking, larger stalls for them to lie in, better waste management to remove slurry and prevent them standing in it.
The skill of a good dairyman is in identifying these problems that exist in ALL dairy cattle to varying degrees and treat them before they become a problem. As stated ad nauseum, sick, tired, stressed or otherwise unhealthy cows will not produce high yields of milk!

keeping animals in multi-storey concrete sheds in unnatural conditions, with no access to exercise or fresh grass outdoors,

It’s going back a bit for me but aren’t cows generally treated like this now throughout the Winter?
AFAIK cows are brought into the sheds for Winter & fed sillage or haylage

We used to back onto a farm when I was a kid & it was some sight watching the cows when they were finally let out again in Spring

uplink – yes 🙂

it was some sight watching the cows when they were finally let out again in Spring

Imagine if they were never let out! 😯

Unfortunately, because the main concern or the consumer is the price they pay rather than the quality of the product, these farms are always going to struggle to make a good living.

This.

You can waffle on all you like about factory farming and petitions, but the fact is that people are already voting with their wallet. The in-laws have been dairy farmers all their lives, and are in the process of packing it in. There is now very little money in selling milk as a small producer, and their milk round, which was the lifeblood of the business, was dying off with their elderly customers. When faced with the choice of a slightly more expensive pint delivered to their doorstep by the producer twice a week, or buying a plastic jug with ‘happy cow’ blurb on the back from Tesco’s, the consumer is overwhelmingly choosing the latter. Now extend this to all the other dairy products on the shelves and cow factories are almost a certainty. I’m not a fan, but what is the alternative?

Oh, and traditional dairy farming is still hard and dirty work. It far from the ‘Daisy tip-toeing through the meadow’ idyll that people seem to think it is.

I do class myself as someone well versed in these matters and qualified to make judgements on animal welfare as it happens to be my job
Well, as a trained professional, if you think that keeping animals in multi-storey concrete sheds in unnatural conditions, with no access to exercise or fresh grass outdoors, and essentially living in the most dire conditions ever then god help us. (IMPO of course).

LHS, think of it as a deal between bovine and human. When cattle were first domesticated some 8000 years ago, humans gave cattle protection from predators in exchange for milk. Obviously this protection extended to keeping them captive for their safety and as a result the human became responsible for proving food, water and shelter during inclement weather as a result. That is all that is happening here, just on a much greater scale than has been seen before in this country. IMO arguments against such a project don’t come down to welfare as the cattle are being provided with the most comfortable living conditions and the best nutrition.

LHS, where do you live?

imagine what? how they cope with the winter conditions

. IMO arguments against such a project don’t come down to welfare

well that’s where we differ. Just because we “domesticated” cattle as you put it, does NOT give us the right to treat them with such contempt.

Aren’t farmers the freeloaders who get massive EU handouts and decimate the countryside, whilst also pleading poverty and buying £400K John Deere’s?

well that’s where we differ. Just because we “domesticated” cattle as you put it, does NOT give us the right to treat them with such contempt

Where would you draw the line?

Regularly having them in calf for the sole purpose of producing milk – is that OK?

GlitterGary – you keep trying don’t you 🙄

It’s true though isn’t it.

Mmm, fbk. I take on board the things that you are saying factually. Ethically, I don’t agree.

Regardless of how animals are treated, too much meat and dairy is being produced. People think we need to eat much of it, every day, when that is completely untrue. Humans aren’t designed to eat meat at the quantities we do. To the detriment of our health and the health of the earth.

Consider the subsidies that are provided to farmers in comparison to what we should actually be eating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMpYoqJFfoQ

Humans aren’t designed to eat meat at the quantities we do. To the detriment of our health and the health of the earth.

Whatever the facts with that are, we must be doing something to counter it given the rocketing life expectancies

well that’s where we differ. Just because we “domesticated” cattle as you put it, does NOT give us the right to treat them with such contempt.

LHS, I’m confused by your point. How is providing cattle with shelter from the elements, protection against predators, clean plentiful drinking water and the highest grade of nutrition treating them with contempt?

Did we not domesticate cattle?

LHS, where are you from? See many cows out in the lush grassy field enjoying the snow over the last month?

Whatever the facts with that are, we must be doing something to counter it given the rocketing life expectancies

Yes, cleaner living, vaccinations, central heating, etc. But at the same time cancer has skyrocketed. Admittedly this isn’t just meat, but our general low quality foods that are produced months, if not years, beforehand. Fruit and vegetables that is picked before it’s ripe, sits in freezers for months, then artificially ripened. Our stresses, modern life essentially.

There are a lot of positives to modern life, but many negatives, and mass production of meat products at the expense of sentient life forms – treating them like machines – is not a good thing.

There are a lot of positives to modern life, but many negatives, and mass production of meat products at the expense of sentient life forms – treating them like machines – is not a good thing

here here.

LHS, I’m confused by your point. How is providing cattle with shelter from the elements, protection against predators, clean plentiful drinking water and the highest grade of nutrition treating them with contempt?

A cows normal life for the last god knows how many years has been sheltered during the winter months and outside in big open fields the rest of the year. Overnight you are now changing that to being locked in metal pens in a concrete multi-story car park for the rest of their life.

You’re an idiot if you think the cows should be thanking us for this!!

After milking if you gave the cow an option of a grass field or a concrete pen to walk into, which do you think it would choose?

Yes, cleaner living, vaccinations, central heating, etc. But at the same time cancer has skyrocketed.

So if we’re already heading for a population explosion because we now wash our hands & stay warm,regardless of where Daisy lives

What the hell will it be like if we all turn veggie, apart from exceedingly smelly?

LHS – what is your job title?

If people are happy to pay 200% more for their milk and dairy (and not buy foreign imports) than perhaps it would allow farmers to reduce the milk yield required from their cows to make a profit? And thus the amount of concentrate they require. I’d rather be winter housed than “on the street” as long as I was clean 🙂

I love it when townies come on and tell us the facts!

LHS – you’re doing it again!

normal life for the last god knows how many years has been sheltered during the winter months and outside in big open fields the rest of the year. Overnight you are now changing that to being locked in metal pens in a concrete multi-story car park for the rest of their life.

So you now admit it’s “normal” for them to be housed at least part of the year? This not an over night change – there are already very good zero grazing units (admittedly not on this scale) present around the country – rightly or wrongly they exist. As for the “concrete multi story car park” – a bit emotive and exaggerating?

After milking if you gave the cow an option of a grass field or a concrete pen to walk into, which do you think it would choose?

That very much depends on the weather. The majority of cows would rather live in a warm, dry, comfortable stall than out in squally rain ankle deep in mud which frequently happens in Summer. I don’t recall ever seeing a cow kept in a “Concrete pen” – it just would be possible to keep them healthy.

Once again, I appreciate your point of view and healthy debate is good and to be encouraged. Throwing these exaggerated images around and calling people “idiots” and “cruel” and generally insulting their intelligance isn’t going to win you any arguments though.

As for the Meat/Dairy diet vs more vegetarian lifestyles – that’s an entirely different argument I feel?

I do wish 38 degrees would get someone else to write their daily-mail style spiels, a bit more fact a bit less hysteria.

Definitely a bit concerning this though, terrible potential environmental issues, never mind the animal welfare. Cows do like being outside and lying on grass, fact. So do I.

38 degrees petition won’t achieve a thing though, people are too quick to sign something like that whilst keeping buying cheap tesco milk/meat/bread. Put your wallet and shopping where your mouth is instead.