what destruction, the plans aren’t even finalised? Have you been to the A3 tunnel at the punchbowl, it has improved the landscape and greenspace massively

Destruction of the archaeology

The train to Exeter is already quicker than driving from London. The trouble is that 303 traffic is generally not driven by people wanting to go to Exeter, they’re going further west at which point the train goes to s..t.

Other than this bit the 303 is (from memory) dualled pretty much the whole way to the m5 turning at which point traffic drops right off anyway

5 minute vid from archaeologist Prof Mike Parker Pearson who may be familiar to some:

“The right to drive your car does not trump the right to clean air / safety / environment / historical sites”
(Delete as applicable)

Destruction of the archaeology

I’d agree if it was a cut and cover but if they bore through as they did at Hindhead

https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-roads/a303-stonehenge/archaeology-and-the-a303/

Interesting video – so the contention isn’t actually against a tunnel, more that it needs to be longer. OK, that’s new to me

Once the first time machine gets built we’ll look back on all this and laugh. Then get slaughtered by evil future robots building an intergalactic bypass.

Shocking. Firmly oppose this destruction and it shows a total lack of respect for our history and those who have gone before us. It really is a special landscape and doesn’t deserve this.

What destruction? What is currently there is destroying the whole aspect of the entire site, the cut and cover proposal would have been highly destructive to any archaeological remains, however what is proposed is a twin-bore tunnel, moved further away from the stones than the 303 currently is, and will be bored by tunnelling machines 40 metres below ground, that’s about 131 feet! If you can point to any significant archaeological remains buried that deep below ground, I thing the local archaeological society would likely be fascinated.
The entrances will be two miles away, which was requested instead of the mile and a quarter originally proposed.

You’re right in that it is a special landscape, and it doesn’t deserve the situation it currently finds itself in, with thousands of cars grinding slowly past every day, creating a polluting eyesore.

yes; yes they are. world heritage site mate.

No, drivers are required to pay attention to their driving, not rubbernecking an archaeological site. I’m sure the Highway Code has something about it.

Destruction of the archaeology

Tj, do try and keep up, the whole point is to avoid destruction of archeology, putting a tunnel 130 feet below ground by boring it, and increasing the length to two miles avoids all the issues raised against a cut and cover tunnel one and a quarter miles long, which anyone with a bit of common sense would agree would have been horribly destructive and intrusive.

Firmly of the belief that the biggest crime would be to do nothing.

The road as it stands at the moment is detrimental to everyone – dirty, polluting, noisy, dangerous and a scar across the precious WHS landscape.

The example cited above of the Devils Punchbowl shows what can be done with thought and sensitivity – which it seems this scheme has in spades. those opposing it don’t really want a solution, nothing would satisfy them, there would always be another reason why whatever was proposed would be impossible.

The road as it stands at the moment is detrimental to everyone – dirty, polluting, noisy, dangerous

There are countless examples demonstrating that building more roads and infrastructure to tackle congestion doesn’t achieve what it sets out to, merely attracts more use. We should be building infrastructure that encourages people out of their cars, especially at sites such as the one around Stonehenge

We should be building infrastructure that encourages people out of their cars, especially at sites such as the one around Stonehenge

The challenge is that the 303 is one of two main routes to the SW (it’s that or the delights of the M5). You’d need infrastructure that can make it appealing to do a car-free trip (with kids, tents, surfboards, SUPs or whatever) to all the nooks and crannies of Devon and Cornwall, then to move people around when they got there. Any suggestions for that? Perhaps you can make it less appealing for thousands of people to head SW every summer, and take tourist revenue from what’s already a surprisingly deprived area in parts. There are no easy solutions here.

You’re never going to get an unbiased opinion from an archaeologist on this topic. But I doubt there can be much undiscovered archaeology left due to the amount of digs that have been carried out along the route over the last 20 years.
The current A303 will be developed into a PRoW with links to the north & south, with no road crossings.

Any suggestions for that?

Nope, but then I’m not a civil engineer. But I know (and you know as well, as you’re clearly not stupid) that building more roads doesn’t ease traffic congestion, in fact; it makes it worse. And I can’t believe you’re genuinely arguing that we must allow for the potential destruction of either priceless artefacts, or unimaginable knowledge about the earliest history of Britain, that may impact how we understand the earliest settlements in Europe so that folks going on holiday don’t have to use the M5 as it’s just beastly certain times a year.

Are you?

building more roads doesn’t ease traffic congestion, in fact; it makes it worse

Nobody has proposed building more roads, just moving the existing one.

Nope, but then I’m not a civil engineer. But I know (and you know as well, as you’re clearly not stupid) that building more roads doesn’t ease traffic congestion, in fact; it makes it worse

at pinchpoints like this, that’s not true. In general, a better road network increases traffic, and that will probably happen here, however the congestion will not be worse (at stonehenge) as its going from a major pinchpoint to a free-flowing road in a tunnel.

I suspect more people care about going on holiday to the southwest than care about possibly, maybe damaging some artifacts that aren’t known about today.

Are you?

No I’m not – (#devilsadvocate) are you arguing that spending 35 million quid on an archaeological project in an area that’s unlikely to ever get that much attention again won’t make some fascinating finds and help our understanding of the earliest history of Britain? Or are you suggesting that the M5 isn’t already choked as well, so encouraging traffic over that way will mean more capacity is needed on that road with concomitant spend and upheaval for those affected. So public transport infrastructure isn’t up to the job, reducing tourism isn’t acceptable, increasing road capacity isn’t acceptable, digging up historic sites/ancient woodlands/newts isn’t acceptable, the current A303 isn’t acceptable…

potential destruction of either priceless artefacts, or unimaginable knowledge about the earliest history of Britain

Destruction? As Crossrail and now HS2 have included large scale archeological digs (eg: uncovering layers of london history which wierdly enough, Swampy and co didnt bother to do when they were digging all of their home made tunnels around Euston…)as part of the construction process, I simply cant believe that the A303 tunnel project wont also include this.

Ooh, look! They’re already doing this: Archaeologists unearth bronze age graves at Stonehenge tunnel site

Id reckon it will be the biggest ever archeological dig on Salisbury plain.

I can’t believe you’re genuinely arguing that we must allow for the potential destruction of either priceless artefacts, or unimaginable knowledge about the earliest history of Britain, that may impact how we understand the earliest settlements in Europe

It won’t be destroyed though – if there’s anything there. It will be dug, catalogued, studied and curated as appropriate.
There’s a great BBC documentary about the 303 called Highway to the Sun. It’s a pretty ancient RoW that’s been used, adapted and modernised many times over history. It’s as much a part of the landscape as any other feature.

so that folks going on holiday don’t have to use the M5 as it’s just beastly certain times a year.

It’s about more than that. A sizeable amount of people live in the SW peninsula, it’s not just a holiday park. Some of those areas are amongst the poorest in Europe. The only access in/out of the peninsular other than the 303 is via Bristol. If levelling up means anything at all then basic transport infrastructure has to be a part of that.

For the money being spent why not just bypass the entire are by several miles?

It won’t be destroyed though – if there’s anything there. It will be dug, catalogued, studied and curated as appropriate.

ie. removed from the site or tangibly lost forever.

Proper digs last years, much longer than a commercial or even government contractor will tolerate, at best you’ll get a slap dash dig and sift. Look at the Ness of Brodgar dig site and how long that’s taken.

I live in Somerset and am careful to time my drives on that section of the A303 to when it is (or should be) quiet, rather than add an extra 1/4 or 1/2 hour. I’ve also been waiting 40 years for it to be tunnelled or diverted, so my thought is more that I won’t see it complete! The removal of the stretch of the A360 and junction has been a small but notable improvement.

Wouldn’t a tall hedge stop people looking at it when driving past?

ie. removed from the site

And ? Why would that be a problem ? There’s lots of artefacts in the Stonehenge visitors centre

What purpose does heritage serve if it’s buried underground, undiscovered and without utility ?
Seems like a win/win. Dig an area of the landscape that would otherwise probably remain unstudied and solve on of the major issues of the 303 at the same time.

Seems to me that one aspect that’s lost in this argument is that the 303 is an integral part of the cultural landscape. Cultural landscapes are living environments, it’s not all about time depth and the unchallenged views of Heritage professionals.

And ? Why would that be a problem ? There’s lots of artefacts in the Stonehenge visitors centre

What purpose does heritage serve if it’s buried underground, undiscovered and without utility ?

Archaeology has developed massively over the last couple of hundred years, so much that digs even 50 years ago look primitive. If you destroy the context of a site now then you remove any way of interpreting that site in the future when more sophisticated techniques and technology are available.

I can’t believe you’re genuinely arguing that we must allow for the potential destruction of either priceless artefacts, or unimaginable knowledge about the earliest history of Britain, that may impact how we understand the earliest settlements in Europe

You do know we are talking about Stonehenge, right?

Archaeology has developed massively over the last couple of hundred years, so much that digs even 50 years ago look primitive. If you destroy the context of a site now then you remove any way of interpreting that site in the future when more sophisticated techniques and technology are available.

Yes, that’s what I was getting at.

You do know we are talking about Stonehenge, right?

No, pretty sure the road is going somewhere else. Point being the area is awash with archaeological sites.

I’ll be surprised if english heritage don’t claim the tunnels as theirs and charge admission.

theotherjonv

what destruction, the plans aren’t even finalised? Have you been to the A3 tunnel at the punchbowl, it has improved the landscape and greenspace massively

Improved? It’s absolutely disgusting.
The local freaks go on about damage by mountain bikes (having made it impossible to get to any proper MTB without using a footpath) and there is this complete disgusting mess at the bottom.

You do know we are talking about Stonehenge, right?

Actually we arent unless the tunnel project is rather more radical than I thought. We are talking about the landscape around Stonehenge which is part of a larger archaeological site.

And I can’t believe you’re genuinely arguing that we must allow for the potential destruction of either priceless artefacts, or unimaginable knowledge about the earliest history of Britain, that may impact how we understand the earliest settlements in Europe so that folks going on holiday don’t have to use the M5 as it’s just beastly certain times a year.

What does priceless mean, it’s worth what the nation can sell it for and why should the average taxpayer give a shit about how “we” understand the earliest settlements in Europe?? …. how does understanding the earliest settlements in Europe relate to the average taxpayer paying their gas/electric, mortgage, rent or feeding kids?

By “we” do you mean some stuck up toffs at a posh university ???

unimaginable knowledge about the earliest history of Britain

So you can’t even imagine what this knowledge is but how it it relevant to the average tax payer?

What does priceless mean, it’s worth what the nation can sell it for and why should the average taxpayer give a shit about how “we” understand the earliest settlements in Europe?? …. how does understanding the earliest settlements in Europe relate to the average taxpayer paying their gas/electric, mortgage, rent or feeding kids?

By “we” do you mean some stuck up toffs at a posh university ???

Wow.

If ever there was an example of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing, this is it.

squirrelking

Wow.

If ever there was an example of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing, this is it.

So I take it you are completely unable to show any value to this posh academic bullshit to the average tax payer?
So why should they fund it?

Why not have a referendum?
Bulldoze Stonehenge and reduce duty of fags and beer to zero or spend money fixing a building that fell down millennia ago?

Wouldn’t a tall hedge stop people looking at it when driving past?

I was at Shrewton Parish Council meeting, a few years ago, with English Heritage and Highways Agency folk present, as well as the local BBC.

I asked the very same question and the unbelievable response was that it wouldn’t have looked that way in 3000BC, or whatever date it was made!!

I also made the point that it was clear that in the view of EH, the lives and safety of the living were of secondary importance to the artifacts of unknown dead with no real significance. They didn’t argue otherwise.

It’s a very dangerous stretch of road, particularly with the A344 closed and all manner of traffic tries to navigate the awful Longbarrow Roundabout, or just block it regardless. I’ve lost count of how many accidents have occurred on that road. Some form of improvement is way overdue and EH have some responsibility here too.

mikertroid

I asked the very same question and the unbelievable response was that it wouldn’t have looked that way in 3000BC, or whatever date it was made!!

I also made the point that it was clear that in the view of EH, the lives and safety of the living were of secondary importance to the artifacts of unknown dead with no real significance. They didn’t argue otherwise.

You should persist and ask for a pound value per life and value of non fatal injuries vs a fact based value for not having a hedge.

You should persist and ask for a pound value per life and value of non fatal injuries vs a fact based value for not having a hedge.

Bit late now…. think the tunnel will be a convenient, if expensive, alternative to a hedge 😎

Bit late now…. think the tunnel will be a convenient, if expensive, alternative to a hedge 😎

Well the channel Tunnel cost 8 British lives in its construction. (2 French)

Another local here.

That bloody A303 ruins one of my favourite gravel loops – when trying to get across from the Woodfords side, to the rest of the byway, you can stand waiting to cross the 303 for what seems like….minutes! I’ve tried really eyeballing the slow drivers, but non will yield!

Get tunneling and spending!

its going from a major pinchpoint to a free-flowing road in a tunnel.

In the very short term maybe, in the medium-long term it’ll be a traffic jam in a tunnel, (as that’s how traffic works) and all that money will have been wasted.

So I take it you are completely unable to show any value to this posh academic bullshit to the average tax payer?
So why should they fund it?

Why not have a referendum?
Bulldoze Stonehenge and reduce duty of fags and beer to zero or spend money fixing a building that fell down millennia ago?

You are my local MP and I claim my £5

In the very short term maybe, in the medium-long term it’ll be a traffic jam in a tunnel, (as that’s how traffic works)

Strange i don’t think I’ve ever been a traffic jam in the Hindehead tunnel on the A3 but before that had been in many jams when it was a single carriageway.