Right I’m off to speak to my ambulance chasers regarding my accident.

TandemJeremy – Member
If you look at the accident rates dispassionatly you see for some forms of cycling the risks are very low indeed. Millions to one of getting a serious head injury that would be mitigated significantly by a helmet. Those odds I am prepared to accept.

Probably true, but I wear mine mainly because of all the small knocks it protects me from where otherwise I would have had a nasty bruise/cut to my noggin.

For me, the protection from serious injury is a bonus, the main function is protecting against my own stupid little mistakes.

Good summary of the helmet debate from the DfT
“In terms of tone, the bicycle helmet debate can best be described as sour and tetchy. Neither side seems willing to concede that there can be alternative points of view. Both sides can descend into language that reflects little credit for either, for instance, expressions such as irresponsible zealots who oppose legislation find their counterpart in helmet advocates dismissed as do gooders and mandarins of health promotion. This can be disappointing for those seeking enlightenment from the debate.”

I’ve witnessed people arguing about this on the internet for well over a decade now. In all that time I have never seen any new arguments, and I’ve never seen anybody on either side of the discussion change their mind, so I think enlightenment may be some way off.

Try Googling “bicycle helmet debate”
258,000 results…

I just can’t believe the discussion is about helmets when this driver has crossed at right of way, knocked a cyclist off, and then had no punishment at all!?

Retro – a good point. I tend to agree which is why I wear one at trail centre when the risks of ANY head knock are high.

CTC has a good summary of the evidence as well.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=4688

The evidence that helmets actually reduce serious head injuries is poor at best.

You are less likely to have an accident if you don’t wear one – why is unclear but that is the evidence.

TJ thats the biggest load of arse I’ve ever read, not that it worries me as I wear my 80ltr camelbac on my head every ride.

I’ve just scanned a number of the articles about helmet wearing and safety and they all seem to miss the point by a country mile.

Sure you can make any number of clever intellectual statistical arguments about what effect it has on your own propensity to take risks, what effect it has on how drivers treat you etc. Wow, fantastic, we can all toss ourselves off in a wave of intellectual hot air, spending tax payers money on pointless studies.

Can we not just have the data that really matter?

If I hit my head with a fixed amount of force against a rock, pavement, road, whatever it might be, with a helmet on, then how much energy does the helmet absorb and prevent being transferred to my brain? If I repeat that experiment without a helmet, what is the likely injury I will sustain? At what point does the helmet cease to offer any useful protection against the transfer of energy from movement to brain via hard surface? What is there difference between these events at different levels of energy and what about if the rock is pointed or dull?

Is this not really the point? I mean that yes the other scenarios are all perfectly valid in an intellectual discourse, but they’re hardly real world are they?

OP – couldn’t you just have posted on the same tedious topic, on the thread from yesterday?

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-or-lack-thereof-at-dalby

Mr Nutt – that is the actual evidence. You may not want to believe it but that is clearly the case. Have a read on the links on the CTC site

Arrgghhhh Khani just hit me round the head

Edit – geetee – so you just dismiss a load of careful research as you don’t agree with it.

Double edit incidence is a part of overall risk – so if helmet wearing means more accidents then they may INCREASE overall risk

Now the evidence on that is sketchy but there are some pointer that wearing helmets increase incidence of head injury

Needs more invvestigation. for sure.

doh crispedwheel’, you pipped me at the post (i was just about to put the dalbt thread link in too ! peeep peeep peeep..

Sorry crispedwheel and elaine anne, ill ask the driver and cyclist to time their accident better next time!

Forgive my bad searching skills, i didnt think to look…ill go flog myself with the barbed wire now… 🙄

Lets try and keep it together people and play nice …..I think the louvre is starting to ebb a bit, same team and all that.

The majority of adults will make their own decision whether to wear a helmet or not irrespective of all the debate on the subject, which is fair enough.

What worries me more is that the authorities, courts, and insurance companies seem to be taking the view more and more that a cyclist is in some way contributing to their own misfortune should they be involved in an incident by not wearing a helmet, even where no head injuries are involved.

I wear a helmet when I’m mountain biking or going on a road ride on relatively quiet roads but not when I’m commuting. The reason is that I think that they do actually increase the risk of accident due to perceived safety. Not the rider’s perceived safety but that of drivers.

When I was in the US the attitude of car drivers was unbelievable. There were people who thought that it was OK to try to nudge cyclists off the road as a warning and that they would be OK because they were wearing a helmet.

I’m not saying things are that bad in the UK but I still think the more you look like a ‘proper cyclists’ the more likely you are to be given less space than is safe because drivers sub-consciously or consciously assume that you’re good enough and that you don’t need as much room as someone who looks like they’re on their way back from the pub. That’s also the reason that if I hear a car coming up fast behind me I give a slight wobble and wander over the road a bit more.

I’d just like to add that I have absolutely no evidence to back this up, just what I’ve concluded from talking to some drivers. Anyone who thinks differently’s opinions are equally valid and I’m not going to try to shove my opinion down your throat.

stumpynya12 – Member
Lets try and keep it together people and play nice …..I think the louvre is starting to ebb a bit, same team and all that.

Agreed, but I think the keyboard warriors are out! 😉

Ok this is a very topical thread for me as i have to give a talk tonight at my Nephews cub scout meeting about bikes… how gears work, change a puncture, braking etc.

Should i tell them the importance of wearing a helmet or that they are more likely to have an accident if they wear one ????

The police called me last night and said they were not going to charge the driver. Usually they would, but as the light the guy was using was not very good and he was not wearing any high vis clothing, then he had to accept some responsibility!

Sounds just like the old “She was asking for it” rapist defence!

psling – Member

What worries me more is that the authorities, courts, and insurance companies seem to be taking the view more and more that a cyclist is in some way contributing to their own misfortune should they be involved in an incident by not wearing a helmet, even where no head injuries are involved.

I don’t think the courts are – there has been a couple of high profile cases recently where insurance companies have argued this but that have been resolved in the cyclist favour.

Frankers – I would concentrate on telling them how to use a helmet properly – fit and doing the straps up.

I reckon more than half the people I see with helmets on wear them so badly they they will be very compromised. This includes Glentress last week

TandemJeremy – Member

Frankers – I would concentrate on telling them how to use a helmet properly – fit and doing the straps up.

Good call, cheers!

I choose to wear a helmet as I want to reduce the chance of injury in a crash whether on road or trails.

If others choose not wear one to that’s their own choice if somewhat selfish.

Why selfish? Well they are thinking only of their own ‘right’ not to wear one. Not of the people who would be affected if they got a serious head injury – their dependants, family, etc.

The recent Steve Cracknell crash in the US is a great example of the benefits of a helmet. He would most likely be dead or massively brain damaged without one in the opinion of the medical team out there.

Medics always support helmet use though, they are not necessarily the best to comment objectively on it.

there are very few head serious injuries. There is no massive epidemic of head injuries

Seems odd to me. I’ve seen and read about loads of accidents where people’ve smacked their heads on the tarmac, making an otherwise minor accident serious.

And as for adults making their own decisions.. hmm.. adults often make wrong decisions, don’t they? And if someone gets vegetablised then it’s not always just them that suffers is it?

Food for thought.

Molgrips – go and read up on it. Try the ctc links as a start.

There is no epidemic of serious head injuries, cycling is very safe. this is true.

We suggest that given the importance of cycling as an activity for millions of the population, the risks of either a) forcing those users to wear helmets or b) promoting helmet use, emphasising the risks In reality, the risks of cycling are low – you are more likely to be killed in a mile of walking than a mile of cycling (DfT, 2009), whilst the risk of injury per hour are as likely when cycling as they are gardening (Powell KE et al, 1998).

That’s not quite what I mean. I understand cycling is safe, that’s why I do it.

The thing is, if you DO get hit by a car on a road, there’s a fair chance of hitting your bonce on the tarmac, is there not?

And as for adults making their own decisions.. hmm.. adults often make wrong decisions, don’t they?

Agreed, but the majority of adults are able to make a judgement, a subconscious risk-assessment if you like.

And if someone gets vegetablised then it’s not always just them that suffers is it?

That argument can be extended right through to getting on the bike in the first instance. In my local riding patch (I’m talking off-road now), apart from cuts and grazes to various limbs, the more serious incidents have involved neck injuries and spinal injuries which some may argue can be made worse by wearing a helmet 😕

Fortunately for this thread I am GMT-5hrs.

IMPO – and i’m not going to debate it – please see previous threads, anyone who thinks that ridng without a helmet is safer and that helmets actually make accidents worse are completly and utterly deluded.

Please see previous debates for reasons why.

Have a good day.

Why selfish? Well they are thinking only of their own ‘right’ not to wear one. Not of the people who would be affected if they got a serious head injury – their dependants, family, etc.

I’m not thinking about my right not to wear one, I’m thinking about my own safety as I explained above. I think that while commuting in town wearing a helmet increases my risk of an accident. It probably will reduce the severity of an accident to a certain extent but I think it’s safer to avoid accidents altogether.

I don’t think you’re selfish for wearing one and possibly increasing your risk of an accident though, I just think you have a different and equally valid opinion given the lack of evidence for or against.

LHS – Member

Fortunately for this thread I am GMT-5hrs.

IMPO – and i’m not going to debate it – please see previous threads, anyone who thinks that ridng without a helmet is safer and that helmets actually make accidents worse are completly and utterly deluded.

LHS – I don’t think anyone has ever argued that – I certainly have not

However LHS someone who in the face of quality evidence denies that helmets can exacerbate injuries in some circumstances and denies that as helmet wearing rates rise head injuries don’t fall is not following the evidence in a scientific manner. Attacking those who disagree with you shows the weakness of your position.

Edit

However LHS is right – this has been argued over and over again to the point at which we are all sick f repeating. Have search on here

Look at the links on the CTC site for a starting point or follow previous debates on here.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4689

frankers….
I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children’s laughter remind us how we used to be

You wear one on the trail (I assume…) but there are far more uncontrollable variables on the road. I didn’t used to wear one before I “got into” cycling, but now it’s up there with having a saddle. You don’t have to have one but a lot of bad things can be prevented by keeping it involved. Unless you trials (but they generally have helmets on!)

By not protecting yourself you are creating a burden to the emergency services who have enough on their plate! Get over the vanity, you are perceived for such a short duration when pedalling that the presence of a lid won’t really sway the approval/disapproval of that oh-so-important stranger.

Last time I looked the Sun was the most popular source of info on a daily basis, ergo random stranger is likely to be fairly simple anyway and probably dislike you for something else! (I am exaggerating, but you get my point)

helmets actually make accidents worse

TJ have you not argued this in respect of rotational injuries?

My tuppence on it.

People who buy helmets should get a tuition on how to fit it properly to their skull. TJ is right on this one, trail centres are full of newbies with badly fitted helmets that would not do its intended job.

Mainly though, those who dont wear helmets are very slow riders (in my opinion) who perceive risk being minimal because of the (lack of) speed of the impact. Thats what i notice or conclude from my daily commute or general riding.

So to conclude:
Fast, good riders wear helmets
Slow, untalented riders dont

Thats why i always wear a helmet 😛

You wear one on the trail (I assume…) but there are far more uncontrollable variables on the road

I wear one on the trail because I take more risks and I am (normally) the only one responsible for any accidents I have. While commuting in town the biggest danger is from car drivers and their perception of how much risk I am at. Therefore I don’t wear a helmet while commuting in town because I want to appear at as much risk as possible to car drivers. I also tend to wear jeans and a leather jacket rather than clothes that would be better for cycling for the same reason (riding in the dark is a different story, high vis clothes and the brightest lights I can find).

I agree why take a chance – I know someone had stupidly posted somethinng about how they dont wear helmet due to the risk of rotational injury being much greater – well this is just plain stupid – would you rather have a strained neck or a smashed up skull – simple really!

Who was that mimi?

yeah neninja,

imagine medics who see people heads stoved in quite often from cycling accidents and the difference from those who have wore and those who have not wore a helmet advising people to wear helmets.

Nutters that they are

Crazy people – in fact I cant believe they are allowed to operate on people.

cynic-al – Member

helmets actually make accidents worse

TJ have you not argued this in respect of rotational injuries?

Do you ever bother to read anything? I answered this many many times.

There is good evidence that in some circumstances helmets can make injuries worse. How often this occurs is not known. To say this is not the same as saying “helmets actually make accidents worse” There are people who do argue that you shouldn’t wear helmets at all because of this – including neurosurgeons. Myself I don’t – or else I would never wear one. Even the TRL found this effect

A rotational injury is not a strained neck – it is a diffuse axon injury – a far nastier type of brain injury. Typically you get a focal injury from a direct impact. A focal injury is much less severe that a diffuse axon injury.

There is also a meagre mount of evidence that helmets can increase the risk of high neck fractures.

Its an area that requires more research but cycle helmets are far worse for this than other types of helmet. It is a proven fact that this effect occurs. What the incidence and thus the risk is still debatable

I will not debate this further but if anyone want the acedemic references e mail me. Or follow the links on the CTC page. Or use google scholar. Journal of accident prevention IIRC

I read plenty TJ, I just lose some of the detail.

MAybe (and I am not joking) you should have a web page for stuff like this, as it is easy to lose the detail and you seem to get frustrated repeating it.

I don’t wear a helmet when walking, more fool me, because when that truck door swung open and flicked me into a wall i had quite a nasty cut on my eyebrow.