Agreed, but the majority of adults are able to make a judgement, a subconscious risk-assessment if you like.

Hahaha!

Good one!

Did everyone wear seatbelts before they were compulsory? How many people drank and drove in the 70s?

In Wisconsin helmets for motorcyclists used to be mandatory. They managed to get that law overturned, now you hardly ever see motorcyclists wearing one.

Most adults are very much NOT rational and sensible!

Therefore I don’t wear a helmet while commuting in town because I want to appear at as much risk as possible to car drivers

This is absolutely BARMY. I’d wager a large number of accidents are caused by motorists not seeing you at all. So how does not wearing a helmet help? One of the battiest arguments I’ve heard since WWI – “Let’s attack in broad daylight, they wont’ be expecting it!”

There are far far better ways of asserting your road presence than removing safety equippment. The fact that you think drivers are surveying the scene, seeing you sans lid and thinking ‘right, well he’s not wearing a helmet so I’ll pass 6″ closer than if he was’ is making me chuckle irl 🙂

Why not undo your front brake cable too? Weave all over the road a bit too? You’ll be safe as houses then! 😆

And if someone gets vegetablised then it’s not always just them that suffers is it?
That argument can be extended right through to getting on the bike in the first instance

Yes of course, but it’s about degrees of risk. I like to cycle, but the wearing of a helmet is a totally trivial way of significantly reducing the risk to my brain (imo). So I do it, and it has no negative impact on my cycling in any way.

Al – I just should stick to my resolve not to get sucked into the arguments AGAIN

As others point out – no one is listening, people don’t like having sacred cows shot, no one ever changes their mind and people prefer their “common sense” reasoning over actual scientific evidence( edit as evidenced by molgrips in his post above) – which admittedly on both sides of the helmet debate is of poor quality.

Molgrips – do yorself a favour and actually go and read up on some of this stuff – you make a load of ludicrous assumptions in that post which are just wrong. Start with the CTC links.

stumpynya12 – Member
frankers….
I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children’s laughter remind us how we used to be

Ok will do… cheers!

Molgrips – do yorself a favour and actually go and read up on some of this stuff – you make a load of ludicrous assumptions in that post which are just wrong. Start with the CTC links.

I have read them.

Which bit of my post is ‘ludicrous’?

i wear a helmet because i have a high IQ and the world needs my intelligence. its my duty as a member of the human race to protect myself for the future of mankind.

therefor i suggest that those who wear helmets are awesome (much like surf-mat and I) and also that wearing a helmet is a sign of intelligence.

pretty people should be forced to wear full-face helmets as the world must protect the pretty.

(pretty can only be defined using the “Phil’s Scale of sexiness” as others opinions on what is pretty will not do)

Philips system Some good discussion on there but remeber the source!

He is now developing a cycle helmet and POC already make one

LHS believes the risk of rotational injury is so low that this is not needed. I am not so sure. Some estimates are as high as 30% of all head impacts the injury is worsened.

However LHS points out that a system such as this adds weight, complexity and cost which is not good

I do try to be reasonable and balanced in discussing this – its a pity the “must wear a helmet at all times” folk cannot do the same

De ja vu? Or have I banged my head?

Who wears headphones whilst riding then? Good idea?

Vu deja – the feeling you are going to be doing this again

I always wear a helmet on and off road. I hadn’t heard the rotational injury information before – I’ll do some research on this. The car drivers take more care when cyclists don’t wear helmets bit I’ve heard before but I’ve not stopped wearing the helmet on the road because I choose not to be influenced by the shite behaviour of some car drivers – I think there are ways of ‘defensive cycling’ that reduce the opportunities for drivers to pass too close.

I think wearing a helmet should be law.

I once went on a ride with a mate who never use to wear a helmet, we was riding down a nice flat grassy downhill and towards the end just about the enter a road he lost control (don’t know how, inexperience I guess) he ended up hitting his head on the edge of the pavement, luckily I had some first aid kit with me until the paramedics arrived… luckily he is ok now but never rides without a helmet.

There is another guy I know, who was in a car crash and was very badly hurt and was attended to on seen by his mum who latterly held his head together with her own hands while she watched her son’s life fade away. I know he was in a car but it could easily have been on a bike, and I wouldn’t have want to hold any of my friends or families heads together while they give there agonal breath and likewise I would have wanted the thought of them looking after me.

I have also been in a number of accidents involving landing on my head and destroyed a number of helmets, but I am still here to tell a tail.

So I will never ride myself or ride with anyone without a helmet, or even acknowledge anyone on the trail that is not wearing a helmet…

Please excuse the spelling I am dyslexic, I have used word.

Sheffield – its interesting stuff. Cyclehelmets.org has links but there are more – if you have an athens password you can get a lot of info. Google scholar and wiki throw up some as well. There is a TRL paper that shows the effect

to me its a strong argument for improving cycle helmet design and testing. Cycle helmets test worse than other types of sports helmets when tested in oblique impacts

Please excuse the spelling I am dyslexic, I have used word.

Lol, double whammy then 🙂

TJ, you are doing very well for being rational, I apologise for being overly critical in my previous post.

I would still highlight that point though. Surely most accidents must be where the driver doesn’t see you – so the absence of a helmet won’t make any difference until your head hits something.

Cycle helmets test worse than other types of sports helmets when tested in oblique impacts

I wonder if any specific bike helmets are better than any others.

Sheffield – no testing known to me but I believe pisspots are better from that point of view because of the smoother shell. Just an opinion tho.

TandemJeremy – Member
Vu deja – the feeling you are going to be doing this again

😀

Any thoughts on my last post TJ?

This is absolutely BARMY. I’d wager a large number of accidents are caused by motorists not seeing you at all. So how does not wearing a helmet help? One of the battiest arguments I’ve heard since WWI – “Let’s attack in broad daylight, they wont’ be expecting it!”

http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/releases/overtaking110906.html

There are far far better ways of asserting your road presence than removing safety equippment. The fact that you think drivers are surveying the scene, seeing you sans lid and thinking ‘right, well he’s not wearing a helmet so I’ll pass 6″ closer than if he was’ is making me chuckle irl

Just in case you can’t be bothered reading the link that’s been posted (which is quite likely since you don’t seem to have read it the half dozen other times it’s been posted) it’s only 3 1\2 inches on average.

Not to mention the conversations I had with some **** in the states who thought it was OK to nudge cyclists off the road as a warning but it would be OK cause they were wearing helmets. (I mentioned that before but I’m guessing you haven’t read the rest of the thread)

Why not undo your front brake cable too? Weave all over the road a bit too? You’ll be safe as houses then!

I don’t undo my front brake cable because I doubt drivers even notice the state of my bike, just what I’m wearing. I do sometimes give a wobble if I hear a car coming up fast behind me. Every little helps.

Like I said, I prefer to do everything to I can to avoid accidents rather than rely on a half inch of polystyrene which includes asserting my position on the road and even my appearance. I figure if I get in an accident with a vehicle I’m going to be seriously injured or killed anyway.

I’ve read it before. The thing is, I don’t believe it has much significance. The fact that it’s a printed study doesn’t make it gospel. For a start, it was just him on his bike, so there’s no way to tell if he himself rode slightly differently with a lid on than without, thereby affecting the results. As well all know (or should know), as drivers we respond to a whole array of subtle cues and movements without even realising it.

The question I have is this: How many accidents are caused by motorists passing too close, and how many are caused by people not seeing you and pulling out into you?

Like I said, I prefer to do everything to I can to avoid accidents rather than rely on a half inch of polystyrene

Very flawed logic. Why can’t you do all those things AND wear a helmet? It’s what I do. No-one’s suggesting you put a helmet on and then don’t bother taking any other steps to keep safe, are they?

Is it possible for everbody to be correct then we can all discuss real problems like how big a back pack do I need,what tyres,10 speed set up etc etc

It’s interesting to consider the whole attitude to safety. I’m talking the lights used, hi-vis/reflectives, road conduct (running reds, etc) as it’s a whole issue.

You could have a helmet on and ride like a ****, or be super cautious with a hi-vis and lights without a helmet.

I am not saying we all need to hi-vis, but it’s a moral argument about a component of behaviour. We can preach our plastic hats to the unwitting vain pedaler, but how safe is your own bonce-protected riding?

Oh, and riding like you’re incapable is just inviting it to happen. I think the motorist will see you and think “bloody cyclists” regardless of your trousers, swerving, helmet or impeccable cadence. Ride confidently, with a strong presence in a safe manner.

Just to add that to the conversational soup

We just subscribe to two different theories, neither one has been proved conclusively unless you accept flawed studies (and I have never found a study on bicycle road safety that wasn’t flawed) or anecdotal evidence.

I don’t know how many accidents are caused by motorists passing too close and how many are caused by motorists not seeing you and pulling out. Do you?

For the way that I ride I feel more at risk from cars passing too close since all I can do to counter drivers passing too close is make sure that I’m far enough away from the kerb that I hopefully have room to manoeuvre.

For cars at junctions I feel like I have a bit more control. If I see a car at a junction I first try to make eye contact with the driver. If I don’t then I just assume that they are going to pull out on me and slow down enough so that I can hopefully stop in time. If I do make eye contact then I watch the wheels of the car very carefully so that I can see the instant there is any movement, even if it’s just the slight roll back as the driver comes off the brakes. Throughout the whole approach to the junction I am covering the brakes and looking for escape routes, something that was constantly drummed into me when I was learning to ride a motorbike. Constantly looking for escape routes is absolutely the best way to stay safe whether you’re cycling, riding a motorbike, or driving a car IMO.

If I’m passing a row of parked cars and the worry is that one is going to pull out then I always try to stay as far away as possible and keep myself in the gaps between passing cars rather than in line with them (although hopefully they’ll be giving me more space because I’m not wearing a helmet, anyway). This is absolutely the situation where I feel the most exposed and I try to avoid if at all possible.

I can do all those things and wear a helmet but like I said, my main worry is cars and especially buses and lorries passing too close to me and from the flawed studies and anecdotal evidence I’ve found I think the best way to do this is not wear a helmet.

I do admit that vanity comes into it though. If I was really serious about keeping cars as far away as possible and I’d wear not only a blond wig but a dress as well 😉

Molgrips – have you not grasped that research? – when you don’t wear a helmet car drivers give you more room. You cannot get this effect while wearing a helmet. so its an either / or choice. You cannot “do all those things AND wear a helmet”

You may choose not to believe that piece of research – your choice. But to say someone who has modified their behaviour to attempt reduce their chances of an accident in line with research is “barmy” is insulting and offensive and ludicrous.

BruceWees position has logic and evidence behind it. he may be wrong he may be right but he is no “barmy”

Now that piece of research is very interesting – but it remains limited and a single survey but its another piece of the jigsaw and perhaps a part of the answer as to why when helmet wearing rates go up head injury rates do not fall.

A part of the thing is that people and you appear to be one of them don’t understand the difference between preventing accidents and preventing the harm from accidents. They are not the same and they are occasionally mutually exclusive. Feel vulnerable you take less risks, appear vulnerable people give you more consideration. Totally unconscious behaviour but well recorded phenomenon. is it worth more than the protective effect of a helmet? Up to the individual to decide.

I know for a fact that I am more cautious riding offroad without a helmet.

Incidence and severity

Passive and active

Many ways to look at this.

I am not saying we all need to hi-vis, but it’s a moral argument about a component of behaviour.

this is the same as coppers handing stab vest out to weekend drinkers…If I’m obeying the law on the road and some tw*t in a car knocks me down, I’m not going to be best pleased if the cop tells me that no further action will be taken because I wasn’t wearing an effing high viz vest…

Handing out a portion of the blame to cyclists in RTA’s is sad indictment of the car dominated society we live in.

There is another guy I know, who was in a car crash and was very badly hurt and was attended to on seen by his mum who latterly held his head together with her own hands while she watched her son’s life fade away. I know he was in a car but it could easily have been on a bike, and I wouldn’t have want to hold any of my friends or families heads together while they give there agonal breath and likewise I would have wanted the thought of them looking after me.

This tragic story is a cast-iron endorsement for wearing a helmet. Whilst driving cars.

Molgrips – have you not grasped that research? – when you don’t wear a helmet car drivers give you more room

You are not quite getting my point.

I am saying that that particular piece of research is flawed.

A part of the thing is that people and you appear to be one of them don’t understand the difference between preventing accidents and preventing the harm from accidents. They are not the same and they are occasionally mutually exclusive.

Of course I bloody well understand it. And yes, there may well be cases where the two are mutually exclusive, but I do not believe this is one of them.

When riding with a helmet, I take precautions appropriate to what I am doing. Last week I forgot to bring my helmet down and I found myself quite paranoid about the possibility of cars hitting me. It was not enjoyable, and I don’t believe I was significantly safer because I am already hyper-aware of other road users as it is.

BTW I already apologised for the ‘barmy’ comment. I do however think the poster in question was applying very flawed logic.

I don’t know how many accidents are caused by motorists passing too close and how many are caused by motorists not seeing you and pulling out. Do you?

No, that’s my point.

We could do a quick poll on here though, I will start another thread as people are being turned off this one 🙂

Nearly as dull as the “How dare you carry a large backpack with you thread”

I am saying that that particular piece of research is flawed.

fine – you can say that if you want. What basis do you have for that conclusion? The findings are what they are.

CAN”T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG *Bangs head on wall* (whilst wearing a helmet)

Well I did say:

For a start, it was just him on his bike, so there’s no way to tell if he himself rode slightly differently with a lid on than without, thereby affecting the results. As well all know (or should know), as drivers we respond to a whole array of subtle cues and movements without even realising it.

For a start. It’s not a blinded study.

There are a few helmets on here, that’s for sure.

A few months back, I went and picked up a concussed friend after she flew over the bars of her road bike in the wet and landed on her head. Her helmet was a write-off, but she got away with a bit of a head-ache and some cuts and bruises. I suspect that without a helmet, she’d still have landed on her head and at best, ended up with some sort of head wound.

I’m not sure how not wearing a helmet would have improved her situation or prevented her from having an accident.

That said, I’m all in favour of people having the right to choose to wear a lid or not. I guess you could probably produce a study showing that naked cycling reduced accidents because motorists regarded you as more vulnerable – probably true – but that wouldn’t be much consolation when you were scrubbing gravel out of your arse.

Awww little fluffy kittens…… 😀

the singletrackworld corporate view seems to be that helmets are not essential, therefore all the sheep on here who are desperate to be part of the horrendous clique that surrounds these people all adopt the same view. This is also how people end up riding frankly **** bikes that ignore any improvements in mountain biking equipment that have occurred since 120mm purple stems, simply because it may gain them some kudos on an internet forum.

Listen, boys – as a selfless act to add some scientific evidence to these arguments and settle things once and for all, Mrs T and I have been conducting an experiment this afternoon. We randomised a number of objects to be struck against my head, both with and without a helmet. In order to avoid bias, both Mrs T (the “striker”) and I (the “strikee”) were both blindfolded. The objects were as follows: A scone dropped from approximately 6 inches above head, a snooker ball dropped approx 6 inches above head, a head strike with a piece of 3×4 baton, a head strike with an iron hammer, a strike with a spade. It should be noted that I have a number 1 shaved head so there should be little error introduced due to damping effect of hair. The results were as follows.
Scone with helmet – audible but not felt
Scone without helmet – noticeable but not painful
Snooker ball with helmet – audble but not felt
Snooker ball without helmet – smarted a little, but not too bad
3×4 baton with helmet – audible and you know you’ve been hit, because it makes the head wobble a bit, but not painful
3×4 baton without helmet – very painful. Impossible not to blurt out an obscenity upon being struck.
Iron hammer with helmet – Much the same as a strike with 3×4. I could take quite a few of these before I’d plead for the nonsense to stop.
Iron hammer without helmet – Hurt like ****. Called Mrs T a **** ******er and a comedy bump grew from my head within seconds of being struck.
Spade with helmet – The actual blow itself doesn’t smart, but it did jar the neck enough to consider osteopathic intervention. I could bear a few more blows if I had to, though.
Spade without helmet – First swing missed and for a second, I thought that we may have an unexpected win for the “no helmet” argument. The second swing made contact but I have absolutely no recollection of what happened other than I was out for the count for at least half an hour, by which time Mrs T had mopped up all the blood and made me look vaguely normal again.
So there you have it.
Tomorrow, I might lie down in front of the car and get a blindfolded Mrs T to reverse back and fore over my head, both with and without helmet, to see if we can refine this study further. She’s working out the p values and chi squared analysis (whatever that means) as we speak, but early indications are that the helmet brigade may have a point and maybe we can now end this thread for good.

I accept there is a fair bit of healthy debate about wearing a helmet on the road. I don’t think the “you don’t wear a helmet when walking down the stairs” argument stacks up at all though. The stairs in our house don’t bring me in close proximity to cement trucks or London cabbies on a regular basis.

Surely it’s down to individual choice based on the level of perceived risk? Personally I will always wear a helmet on busy roads or when commuting in town but I won’t bother generally for a quick, largely traffic-free ride down to the local shops. Illogical maybe but there it is.

Riding off road is another matter. If you don’t need a helmet mountain biking then you’re obviously not doing it right. You’re riding a pushbike at 30mph over an unstable surface in close proximity to nasty pointy rocks. And that’s not even considering the odd low-hanging branch to contend with. Frankly you’d be an idiot not to wear a helmet offroad.

Ok if you don’t wear a helmet how do you fix your lights to your head?

More seriously having read through this and many other similar threats It occurs to me that in terms of actual and credible evidence there is insufficient research as to the level of protection offered or the behaviours of cyclists and drivers to form any conclusion on the benefits or otherwise of helmets – so it comes down to personal choice as to whether or not to wear on.
I suspect that the wider debate is a distraction from actually conducting quality research in to helmet design and construction so that they can definitively improve safety for cycles. Given the differing parameters required this is no mean feat
For myself I will continue to wear my helmet when riding – as I will continue to wear my gloves – both are part of the cycling ‘uniform’ and offer some level of protection

Sproketjockey – sometimes I go for a wander around the unpaved byways. Its perhaps not mountain biking but it it offroad. I call it ambient jeycore lite . Think more RSF less DH racer.

Breakneckspeed – I have an m6 bolt glued into my skull 🙂

actual and credible evidence there is insufficient research as to the level of protection offered or the behaviours of cyclists and drivers to form any conclusion on the benefits or otherwise of helmets – so it comes down to personal choice as to whether or not to wear on.

Seems reasonable enough

TandemJeremy – You’re quite right, in my last comment I was thinking in terms of “proper” mountain biking ie involving actual mountains / rocks / roots / steep drop offs and especially at numpties riding black routes at trail centres without a helmet because they think it’s ‘core etc.

I’m happy to say that I’ve indulged in the robust and healthy pleasure of the odd low-velocity bridleway pootle sans lid myself on occasion.

The thing is, would you then play cricket without the armour plating to protect Bert and the twins? You would? Respect.