crankrider – Member
bikebouy – Member
You have no idea how long I’ve owned that car, you have no idea where I drive or for how long, most importantly you have no idea how I drive except I drive within the speed limits.
Care to share?

Not with you… it absolutely none of your business… You should concentrate on yourself.

theotherjonv – Member

as soon as you admit that you allow someone else on the road who is driving perfectly reasonably and within the law to ‘annoy’ you, what does that say about your tolerance? Because they are hesitant / terrified – should they not be allowed out? Or just at specific times / on specific roads?

Exactly – if a driver is hesitant to the extreme (dangerous) or terrified (very dangerous) of course they shouldnt be allowed on the road, is that even open for debate? We have laws to prevent speeding, dont we, so that deals with the idiots on that side of things, how about dealing with the dangerously incompetent?

bikebouy – Member

crankrider – Member
bikebouy – Member
You have no idea how long I’ve owned that car, you have no idea where I drive or for how long, most importantly you have no idea how I drive except I drive within the speed limits.
Care to share?

Not with you… it absolutely none of your business… You should concentrate on yourself.

I am not ‘concentrating’ any real effort on you at all, you are implying everybody is ‘angry’ if they have an opinion though you sound more upset than anybody else.

I imagine you wont share this completely innocuous information as it serves to confirm your stereotype.

Euro, did you actually really read my post? Lol

I did Poops. But this being where it is (and this thread especially), i find it better to assume other posters are a bit…you know…a little touched 😀

The divide here seems to be between those who appreciate the need for rules for society to function, and those think they should be able to do whatever they damn well please because they know best.

Am I right?

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGWuOAgU7jI[/video]

We have laws to prevent speeding, dont we, so that deals with the idiots on that side of things, how about dealing with the dangerously incompetent?

I agree completely, but you didn’t say dangerously incompetent, you said ‘overly hesitant’ and ’40 in a 60′ neither of which are particularly dangerous as long as the driving gods don’t get annoyed with them and try to rush past in an inappropriate manner. Which to be fair, you didn’t say you did, you said you’d wait. But my point was that the irritation at people driving ‘competently but not like a deity’ annoys some people to the extent that they then do bad things like intimidate or overtake inappropriately.

I’m never going to argue that the ‘dangerously incompetent’ should be off the roads; I’d be all for mandatory retests at say 5 or 10 years and then becoming more frequent as you get older or are shown / found to be starting to get worse.

eg: test at say 18 (by the time you’ve learnt); retest at 25, 35, 45, 55, 60, 65 and then more frequent depending on how you are driving compared to past tests. But start getting points for bad driving, then you need to retest every year until points are cleared, to show you have improved.

The divide here seems to be between those who appreciate the need for rules for society to function, and those think they should be able to do whatever they damn well please because they know best.

Am I right

The divide here seems to be between those who appreciate the need for rules for society to function, and those think they should be able to do whatever they damn well please because they know best.
Am I right

Not quite. But nice try.

I think it’s more between those who appreciate the need for rules for society to function and will stick rigidly to any rule or law that their masters see fit to impose. And those who appreciate the need for rules for society to function but think it’s not worth worrying about those who occasionally break the rules if it’s of no consequence to anyone else and there’s no one around to witness it.

Bikebouy, with all respect: you’re going to give yourself an aneurysm stressing about people breaking rules. All the people in the world right now breaking laws by downloading/stealing media, lighting up a fat one etc… just gotta accept it happens.

Just backing up myself, seems just because I have a very rigid opinion of speeding motorists I attract angry divisive characters who defend their “right” to speed.

What about those who just want to drive at the limit if / when its safe too….. 😈

mindmap3 – Member

Just backing up myself, seems just because I have a very rigid opinion of speeding motorists I attract angry divisive characters who defend their “right” to speed.

What about those who just want to drive at the limit if / when its safe too….

Angry maniac.

All the people in the world right now breaking laws by downloading/stealing media

Any chance of some statistics to show how many more people that kills or seriously injures compared going through a pay wall, jambourgie.

Depends whether you count sperm death.

Any chance of some statistics to show how many more people that kills or seriously injures compared going through a pay wall, jambourgie.

Nope.

Fair point. Though I imagine there’s quite a few who’ve thrapped themselves to death on all that grot…

I think it’s more between those who appreciate the need for rules for society to function and will stick rigidly to any rule or law that their masters see fit to impose. And those who appreciate the need for rules for society to function but think it’s not worth worrying about those who occasionally break the rules if it’s of no consequence to anyone else and there’s no one around to witness it.

Heres the thing. People have to make the decision as to whether or not it’s of no consequence. And they frequently make the wrong decision, and people die as a consequence.

Deciding there’s no consequence to driving a particular speed or checking a text IS deciding that you know best.

You have no idea how long I’ve owned that car, you have no idea where I drive or for how long, most importantly you have no idea how I drive except I drive within the speed limits.

Uuumm , that is not enrirely true sir.

I use the M27/M3/A1/A3/A2 a lot, and obviously suburban locations.

Checking a text is stupid though Molgrips cos you’re taking your eyes off the road. We’re talking about exceeding the speed limit on an empty motorway aren’t we?

And the operator of the car does know best surely?

And the operator of the car does know best surely?

Judging from some of the driving I see and the fact that people are killed or injured on a regular basis then that would have to be a big, fat no.

We’re talking about exceeding the speed limit on an empty motorway aren’t we?

I think it changed to speeding in general about seven pages back

Downloaded a film last night and have broken lots of laws in my time. Never broke speed limits though because I’ve suffered through the consequences of just travelling a bit over the limit.

We’re talking about exceeding the speed limit on an empty motorway aren’t we?

I think it changed to speeding in general about seven pages back [/quote]Only because some folks have trouble with the fact that someone can exceed the speed limit when safe to do so on an empty motorway but not speed on other occasions. Guilty of one crime, guilty of them all.

I honestly think that if the government put out a new law that you could only have sex missionary style from now on, there would be people on here up in arms about someone admitting to doing it doggy style.

I don’t think so to be honest. I just think driving within the limits is what grown ups should do regardless of whether or not the road in question is bereft of traffic. I can see why teenagers or folk in their twenties do it. When you get older it just seems a tad sad and immature. Shit can go sideways quite quickly and some poor bugger is scraping bits of you up and knocking on your wife’s door to break the sad news. In my opinion of course.

funkmasterp – Member

Downloaded a film last night and have broken lots of laws in my time. Never broke speed limits though because I’ve suffered through the consequences of just travelling a bit over the limit.

And you are completely sure that whatever happened was due to you travelling at slightly above the speed limit rather than other factors?

As I said before, if a road is re-classified to a lower speed limit, does that mean you are now some kind of speeding maniac? Does it mean that when you previously travelled down there that it was unsafe to do so?

Do you get annoyed if for example a disabled person, or a mother with a pushchair is trying to get through a door in front of you and delays you for a short period? Or do you make allowance for them?

I don’t get annoyed by people who are disabled, I do get annoyed by people who are simply incompetent at life. Actually, “annoyed” is the wrong word, frustrated maybe.

Eg, someone disabled, of course not. Someone who’s chosen to wait until they’re standing in a doorway blocking it off in both directions to decide that it’s time to button up the coats of their soluble children because they’re too shit-witted to realise that beyond the door is “outside” is another matter. It’d be simple enough for them to take two steps back and get out of the way whilst they sort themselves out but they’re too self-absorbed for the notion to even enter their head.

I’ve no problem with people dithering, so long as they dither in a manner that doesn’t inconvenience the rest of the world. See also, roads. I’ve followed people doing 40mph in a 60, only to have them speed up / intentionally move out when I’ve gone to overtake. What’s that all about?

And the operator of the car does know best surely?

Serious? All the shit driving we complain about all day long, and you think the drivers know best?

Anyway. Every time we do this, you all overlook something I think is very important which is consistency. If everyone’s doing 50-60 on the open road, it’s far easier to judge moving traffic because you know what to expect. If you look, see plenty of space, then start to move and suddenly your empty road has been closed up by some **** who’s just appeared doing 90, it’s just making the situation far more difficult and potentially dangerous.

Driving fast affects other people, even if you don’t actually hit them. Ok, you might be talking about an empty road, but you might think it’s empty when it’s not. As for the hypothetical empty motorway in the middle of the night well, whatever. But that’s habit forming – you’ll start looking for excuses to speed – just as people want to shoot through a give-way without stopping, because they can if nothing’s coming, but then one day there is. Like the guy who mowed down the cyclist in Bez’s article the other day because he wanted to go through the crossroads without stopping and thought he could see.

Just chill out. Accept that it’s going to take some time to get where you are going. Make the roads better for everyone. And save fuel whilst you are at it. It’s not like there’s an unlimited supply.

And you are completely sure that whatever happened was due to you travelling at slightly above the speed limit rather than other factors?

My brother was killed by somebody making progress, 34 in a 30. If he had been travelling at 30 or below the angle that my brothers head hit the car would’ve been different. According to an expert witness the speed difference would have meant he’d still be alive today. So yeah, pretty sure on that one

if a road is re-classified to a lower speed limit, does that mean you are now some kind of speeding maniac? Does it mean that when you previously travelled down there that it was unsafe to do so?

Quite possibly yes. But the acceptable speed has just changed, so deal with it. Imagine if everyone was doing the same speed, how much easier woudl traffic flow?

funkmasterp – Member

And you are completely sure that whatever happened was due to you travelling at slightly above the speed limit rather than other factors?

My brother was killed by somebody making progress, 34 in a 30. If he had been travelling at 30 or below the angle that my brothers head hit the car would’ve been different. According to an expert witness the speed difference would have meant he’d still be alive today. So yeah, pretty sure on that one

Well shit, I am genuinely sorry to hear that – It certainly explains your opinion regarding speeding as there is genuine reason behind it.

I wont pass any comment on the accident that killed your brother as that would be completely unfair to do so, 30mph zones are there for a reason and I think completely exempt from the discussion here which started about motorway driving – Only somebody that is deranged would argue otherwise and I will be happy to see more 20mph zones around schools.

bikebouy
Just backing up myself, seems just because I have a very rigid opinion of speeding motorists

ok, let me ask a question:

Do you stick rigidly to the speed limits in order to maximise the safety with which you drive?

I hit 165mph on a speedway 😛 awesome after 2 runs.

Full face helmet etc.

I drive the same car at 30/31mph on the dot in built up areas.

molgrips – Member

if a road is re-classified to a lower speed limit, does that mean you are now some kind of speeding maniac? Does it mean that when you previously travelled down there that it was unsafe to do so?

Quite possibly yes. But the acceptable speed has just changed, so deal with it. Imagine if everyone was doing the same speed, how much easier woudl traffic flow?

Im not even sure how to respond to that jibberish, yea but no but yea?

funkmasterp
My brother was killed by somebody making progress, 34 in a 30.

No he wasn’t. He was killed by someone who failed to drive at an appropriate speed at that moment in time and space. He could have been doing 100, and yet with robust observation, spotted the oncomming high probability of an incident, and hence being doing just 15mph when he hit your Brother, hence not killing him. But not only was he (i’m assuming it was a he) speeding, he was also failing to observe and drive at an appropriate speed at that precise moment in time.

The more we fixate on the (arbitrary) speed limits, the more we let drivers get away with this sort of accident. ie had he not been speeding, say doing 30mph not 34 and still killed your brother (which is very likely) then he would have “got off scott free” in all likely hood as it would have just been an “accident”.

(I don’t know the details of the exact case, but i’d be interested to understand how they knew (with sufficient certainty) the velocity at which the impact occurred. (it would take an electronic log (ie airbag controller download etc) to be able to prove the difference between 34 and 30)

Well shit, I am genuinely sorry to hear that – It certainly explains your opinion regarding speeding as there is genuine reason behind it.

I wont pass any comment on the accident that killed your brother as that would be completely unfair to do so

Happy to discuss it. It happened about twelve years ago. Makes you realise why speed limits are in place and how they can make a difference. His kids never really got over it. I miss him and I’ve said before that I should probably stay away from these threads. Bias and all that.

Thing is the driver could have been doing anything else. Texting, shaving ot whatever. Four miles an hour made a huge difference. Cars, especially modern ones, breed complacency. Speed doesn’t feel the same when you’re in what basically equates to a mobile living room

it’s far easier to judge moving traffic because you know what to expect. If you look, see plenty of space, then start to move and suddenly your empty road has been closed up by some **** who’s just appeared doing 90,

I know what to expect, that at any given moment there’s an outside chance that someone might “just appear” (whatever that means) doing 90 and plan accordingly.

it’s just making the situation far more difficult and potentially dangerous.

Agreed.

When you get older it just seems a tad sad and immature. Shit can go sideways quite quickly and some poor bugger is scraping bits of you up and knocking on your wife’s door to break the sad news

This.

Out of interest, I wander how old folks are on this tbread.

I’m 46, over 10 yrs no claims, drive a performance car (turbo charged beetle), I’ve done a speed awareness course.

I drive a hell of a lot slower than I did 30 yrs ago, I like to think I’m patient & considerate. I don’t speed, I’m sorry to say I’ve seen the consequences of speeding up close & personal.

My hunch is the older you get & the more experience you garner the less impatient & more sympathetic you become as a driver.

I also hold a PCV & HGV licence plus I’ve done a fair bit of driver training both in & outside of the uniformed services. In civvie street it was mostly out of the desire to drive fast because you really can’t do it safely on the road. Also to improve my own abilities as a driver.

I, in no way, consider myself a driving god.

In fact, the more training I’ve had the more I’ve realised how vast the gulf is between your average driver & those who are actually good drivers. By good, I mean professional i.e. plod class 1 & pro racing drivers. Both of who’ve I’ve had the privilege of being impressed by.

I expect a flaming for my honesty, but I couldn’t care less TBH.

maxtorque – Member
funkmasterp
My brother was killed by somebody making progress, 34 in a 30.

No he wasn’t. He was killed by someone who failed to drive at an appropriate speed at that moment in time and space. He could have been doing 100, and yet with robust observation,

Seriously? If I stw funkmasterp I would be pretty angry at that assertion.

If someone is willing to break legally enforced speed limits designed to limit fatalities I don’t consider them trust worthy to use “robust observation”!

Would you let a burglar renovate your house??

Ffs!

The more we fixate on the (arbitrary) speed limits, the more we let drivers get away with this sort of accident. ie had he not been speeding, say doing 30mph not 34 and still killed your brother (which is very likely) then he would have “got off scott free” in all likely hood as it would have just been an “accident”.

(I don’t know the details of the exact case, but i’d be interested to understand how they knew (with sufficient certainty) the velocity at which the impact occurred. (it would take an electronic log (ie airbag controller download etc) to be able to prove the difference between 34 and 30)

The case went on for a long time and the police expert seemed pretty sure. I don’t recall lots of detail on account of being a bit upset. Nice to know you’re sure the speed wasn’t an issue though. It brings me great comfort.

I’m 46, over 10 yrs no claims, drive a performance car (turbo charged beetle), I’ve done a speed awareness course.

I’m 46 as of last weekend, zero no claims thanks to someone taking the side of my car off overnight, drive a diesel Skoda and have done a speed awareness course.

I too drive a lot more slowly than I did when I was 18. I think a big part of that is just growing up. I still drive to make progress, but in the IAM sense rather than the STW hand-wringing sense. It’s possible to drive quickly and efficiently without breaking speed limits.

I still drive to make progress, but in the IAM sense

What does this mean? Making progress is meant to be a euphemism for going too fast. Simply driving towards your destination is making progress, isn’t it?

What do you think we are doing? Trundling around like old people?

Not breaking the speed limit is key for predictability by other road users, and as a general indication of risks that you may not be able to see or know about.

Driving fast is an indulgence, and it’s potentially more dangerous. That’s all there is to it.

What does this mean? Making progress is meant to be a euphemism for going too fast.

Only on STW. Someone commented on this a few pages back.

What do you think we are doing? Trundling around like old people?

Sure. I’ve read your posts on previous driving threads. (-:

Not breaking the speed limit is key for predictability by other road users, and as a general indication of risks that you may not be able to see or know about.

It’s a factor sure. It’s far from the only one. Driving at a given speed because it’s printed on a sign and believing you’re therefore safe is wooly thinking.

Driving fast is an indulgence, and it’s potentially more dangerous. That’s all there is to it.

Whilst this may well be true, it has nothing to do with speed limits.

Driving at a given speed because it’s printed on a sign and believing you’re therefore safe is wooly thinking.

I’ve not seen any evidence that anyone thinks they are safe purely because they are doing the speed limit. If they did, then it would be stupidity, not just woolly thinking.

However that does not mean that it’s ok to speed, does it? Being a safe driver includes many things, including conservative speed. Since the speed limits are conservative and clearly visible to everyone then sticking to them is safer but also encourages predictable behaviour for everyone.

Poopscoop

Seriously? If I stw funkmasterp I would be pretty angry at that assertion.

I think you are missing my point:

Lets consider the two following, slightly different scenario’s

1) a driver is speeding at 34mph in a 30, hits a pedestrian and kills them

2) a driver is not speeding (doing 30.0000000 mph in a 30) hits a pedestrian and kills them

in case 1) our society seems to say “oh well, then” and the driver gets let off, it was just an “accident” after all

in case 2), our society gets our pitch forks out, and shouts “crazy speeding lunatic, he should be locked up for life”

In both cases the end effect was the same, someone (unnecessarily in both cases imo) lost there life because the driver of the car failed to drive and act appropriately. However in case 1) because he happened to be below some completely arbitrary speed, they get let off.

That^^ is my point. We should stop focusing on “speed” as the cause of “accidents” and start focusing on drivers as the cause of “accidents”!!!