gauss1777 – Member

I’m still not sure I understand. Are you saying that HGVs constantly travel at their speed limit because they have limiters and that otherwise they would not break the speed limit, but vary their speed within the limit?

I won’t speak for Sbob but that’s not what I’m saying- I’m saying that sitting on a limiter means drivers don’t have to think about managing speed, whereas not having a limiter means they have to. And in some cases that’s going to cause less overall concentration.

Of course, some drivers obsess about speed and it takes too much of their concentration

I won’t speak for Sbob

Please do, you normally make more sense. 🙂

Northwind, I think I now understand what you are saying. You are concerned that due to gps limiters some people may switch off/lose focus, whereas without – they are forced to pay more attention (?). You may have a point, but don’t those sort of drivers just go along with the general flow of traffic, still paying little attention?

there’s certainly no obvious connection between that and speed limiters

It should be readily provable. Compare accident statistics from before and after mandatory limiters were introduced.

That would be interesting and certainly more useful evidence than trying to use non-lorries as the control group.

Yes there is. It is obvious and observable. They encourage HGV drivers to travel too close. Why do you think snail racing exists? Drivers sitting on the limiter.[/quote]

You’ve seen snail racing causing accidents? Your suggestion is that speed limiters contribute to the relatively high % of lorries involved in fatal accidents. Your claim is that the connection between limiters and accidents is observable. But you don’t appear to have observed the cause of an accident involving HGVs. Snail racing might be irritating, but it doesn’t obviously cause accidents. Though you don’t even appear to have proved that they encourage HGV drivers to travel any closer than they would otherwise.

No it hasn’t. Not well at least.
I was asked for evidence and I provided it.

An explanation has been provided which is far more plausible than your speed limiter theory – you’ve still provided no evidence for the connection between the accident rate and the speed limiters, it’s just a theory.

I didn’t say I stayed at precisely the speed of the HGV (which will vary)

Let me stop you right there. The speed of the HGV which is sitting on the limiter will vary? Though my apologies for misrepresenting you by quoting you directly. I’ll just note again that there’s no evidence that limiters encourage lorry drivers to tailgate.

acceleration sense is the term you are looking for, and the one you would probably already know of if you spent less time arguing on the net and more time furthering your driving education.

Apologies for not having done advanced driver training, so not knowing the terminology – though I googled and the interesting thing is that I’ve already mentioned on this thread that it’s something I do (not only that, I think I might be the only person on this thread to have mentioned it).

No, this is almost entirely your prejudice.

My prejudice that you’re extrapolating from anecdotes?

I always though lorries sat nose to tail with each other to eek out a bit more mpg through drafting.

@sbob – speed limiters are an entirely different proposition to GPS speed limiters. Limiting top speed of HGVs regardless of road, conditions or traffic is a blunt tool to achieve a different end.
Your argument isn’t against GPS speed limiters, just poor HGV driving although them all travelling at a similar consistent top speed presumably reduces the risk of accidents too.

I always though lorries sat nose to tail with each other to eek out a bit more mpg through drafting

I know nothing about this, but it hasn’t stopped me so far. I can picture lorries restricted to say 60 mph, but for some it will be 59 mph and others say 58 mph, since I don’t suppose they are totally accurate. If a 60 is ahead of a 58 or 59 then it will move away from it, until it catches up with a 58 or 59. If the 60 behind a 60 it will sit behind it, or close in on a 58 or 59. Since they struggle to overtake each other, then that will bunch.

(I’m struggling to believe I posted that) – thoughts?

New forks are fitted and some bike riding has been done Can’t believe this shits still going. Seems the IAM is the institute of angry motorists.

Anyway further contribution.

I picked up my first car from this decade today.

Can’t believe how far derived from the driving process you are placed in what is quite a basic car.

Large amounts of the thought has been removed even.

Auto lights
Auto dip
Auto wipers
Reversing sensors
Hill assist
Cruise control.
Cars that don’t need changing downngears to get up hills.

Now to some folk that seems great. But with all that comes folk paying less attention as thy simply don’t feel the need to as the car does most of it for then.

Some of.tje newer ones with colison avoidance and shit people have to pay even less attention…..

The transition between fully automated and human controlled via partially human controlled is going to be fraught with hazards

Does auto-dip work for oncoming cyclists and pedestrians or only cars?

**** knows . Tbh Ive turned off the auto lights the auto wipers and the auto dip.

Imperfectly capible of flicking the switch when appropriate as per my other 2 vehicles. Didn’t want us to get bad habits in them

I’d turn off the reversing sensors too but apparently short of pulling the fuse which will display a fault I have to press the button on starting he car every time

Why would you do that without even trying them?

Because we have 3 vehicles which I switch between frequently…..

It’s bad enough when one had the indicators on the other side a few years ago. Swore I’d never do that again.

Because we have 3 vehicles which I switch between frequently…..

It’s bad enough when one had the indicators on the other side a few years ago. Swore I’d never do that again

One have ours has the steering wheel in front of a different seat.
The other has the “hand brake” on your left foot.
I manage ok.

That’s your choice.

I can run – but I choose not to.

Much like I set up my bikes similarly I like to set my vehicles up similarly.

After all I put my seats and mirrors in similar position s in my cars – why not make them operate the same. Then I’m.not driving round in my land rover with the light bar blinding all an sundry waiting for them them to auto dip.

I disagree about driving aids making people inattentive. There’s enough going on on most roads in the UK to demand attention regardless. If you’re not paying attention, then you’re not paying attention. Arguably the fewer things you have to do would result in LESS of a distraction from the road not more.

Auto dip

In this case, people not concentrating on dipping will simply not dip.

Exactly so if the auto dip doesn’t do it they won’t do it will they ?

If your paying attention to the road you will dip……

If your just wafting along in your bubble with only the go pedal and the wheel then your not paying attention to many things ….which should form your assessment of conditions on the road ahead.

What I am saying is that if they are not paying attention, then having to dip won’t make them pay attention – they just won’t dip.

But the less they have to read the road ahead the less attention they will pay…..

In much the same way as 20 signs don’t get folk doing ,20 but they lower the over all speed they do do ……

Now to some folk that seems great. But with all that comes folk paying less attention as thy simply don’t feel the need to as the car does most of it for then.

Hasn’t it occurred to you that, in not having to divert attention away from the road to operate things like lights, wipers, etc, the driver can pay more attention to what’s going on in front and behind?
Certainly I find that having a variety of simple functions automated I just don’t have to pay them much attention, so allowing me to keep my attention on what the trucks and vans are doing, like pulling out suddenly as I come alongside while indicating at exactly the same moment, giving zero warning of their intentions, or not bothering at all.
Both of which have happened to me over the last couple of days, on a number of occasions.
T_R, how many miles a day/week do you actually drive?
And on what sort of roads?

I know nothing about this

A rare level of honesty, bravo!

Company motor is very automated, most of it I like but the auto lights can be slow to change in the face of opposing traffic, or can change when approaching a building. Evefything else is tops.

10000 a year .mostly long trips on mixed roads. Home and abroad.

Often In a 7m vehicle.

No commuting, very little town as there are better ways into towno. Mostly A roads and country roads – and if I venture far enough south – motorways.

My point is the less attention people need to pay the less attention they will pay. Don’t believe for one minute that the mAjority( of which as a professional driver you are not) of people are more attentive to the road because they do t need to think oh it’s raining – I’ll put my wipers on. Ok I’ll do all the other things associated with the fact it’s raining. I’ll slow down my cornering,I’ll increase my braking gap….. They will just carry on as was.

Just need to look at the number of people driving round on DRLs and night because their dash is lit the assume their lights are on. Which I thought was a phase but still saw 2 folk doing it last week when I appeared behind em. – I did 50 miles in driving in the car only last week.

Let me stop you right there. The speed of the HGV which is sitting on the limiter will vary?

It’s late.
Too late to bother dissecting your post in all its error, so I will bring up this one point alone before bed.

If you are unaware that the speed of a limited HGV will vary then you are not equipped for this discussion.

Chat about wheel sizes instead.

deepreddave – Member

@sbob – speed limiters are an entirely different proposition to GPS speed limiters. Limiting top speed of HGVs regardless of road, conditions or traffic is a blunt tool to achieve a different end.
Your argument isn’t against GPS speed limiters, just poor HGV driving although them all travelling at a similar consistent top speed presumably reduces the risk of accidents too.

This is so wrong I’ll comment to let you know that I will dissect your wrongness in the morning.

It’s late.
Too late to bother dissecting your post in all its error

Actually I’ve just re-read your post.
It is so full of strawmen there is little point in replying. It’s basically a troll.
How is you further driving education going?

breatheeasy – Member

I always though lorries sat nose to tail with each other to eek out a bit more mpg through drafting.

Nah mate, doesn’t happen.
Ask aracer.

molgrips – Member

I disagree about driving aids making people inattentive. There’s enough going on on most roads in the UK to demand attention regardless.

And yet inattentiveness is the number one cause of accidents… 💡

I’ve never see anybody reply to themselves four times in a row 😯

😆

Regarding driver aids, I definitely think they reduce what’s called “arousal” (no sniggering at the back!) in human factors. If your workload drops (assuming you’re not a driving geek), you take up the spare capacity by doing something else. That’s why the fatal Tesla “autopilot” crash happened and why category 3 autonomous vehicles are very problematic; human nature says that after a while of the car doing it’s thing autonomously, the driver will be looking at the scenery or reading a book or something, and thus be ill-equipped to take over when the car encounters a situation it can’t handle and dumps control back to the driver. Driver aids are a less extreme version. They also erode skills in the driving population, how many folk now know how to pump the brakes, double declutch, drive in snow etc since ABS, synchro and traction and stability control became ubiquitous? All good things but they have their downsides!

If your workload drops (assuming you’re not a driving geek), you take up the spare capacity by doing something else.

Yes – watching the other cars. Because you still have to look where you are going, steer and brake, which are the fundamentals of moving around in any situation for any animal. The autopilot situation is different – because the fundamental control is being handed over, so yes you can close your eyes or look at the scenery. Completely different thing to cruise control etc.

They also erode skills in the driving population, how many folk now know how to pump the brakes, double declutch, drive in snow etc since ABS, synchro and traction and stability control became ubiquitous?

How many need to know? I don’t know how to ride a horse either, that’s a similarly eroded skill. But no-one considers than an issue 🙂

It’s an issue when the tech can’t cope. I agree the autopilot is an extreme example of it, but under-arousal is definitely a thing, we see it all the time in aviation. It’s actually an argument against artificially low speed limits; your alertness levels drop.

They also erode skills in the driving population, how many folk now know how to pump the brakes, double declutch, drive in snow etc since ABS, synchro and traction and stability control became ubiquitous?

All skills required because cars were shit. The weak point in a car is the human.

Bently auto dip headlights / mains are rubbish. You can be driving along a nice dark country road with the mains on full and a car appraoches from a side road and stops , say 1m back from the stop line. He sees you coming as its nearly dalylight with those headlights on full, you see him as he has rolled up to a stop and is fully illuminated by your mains.
However, Bently headlamp sensor does not switch off main beam as there is no headlamp appraoching as the joining car is sitting at 90′ to you. So you continue to burn out his retinas with main beam till you are past , and then he has to sit there for a good while blinking to try to remove the dancing spots from in front of his eyes and get some sort of night vision back.

Yes – watching the other cars

which is what you should do . judging by the driving going on im sure folk are on instagram or facebook rather than doing this.

My point is the less attention people need to pay the less attention they will pay.

I think this is entirely dependant on the driver, but I’m not convinced that a few automatic systems will inherently mean folk pay less example. Take auto wipers as an example; do people switch on manual wipers because they’re reading the road attentively, or because they can’t see through the windscreen any more?

They also erode skills in the driving population, how many folk now know how to pump the brakes, double declutch, drive in snow etc since ABS, synchro and traction and stability control became ubiquitous? All good things but they have their downsides!

Synchromesh was patented in 1922. Double decluching is hardly an “eroded skill,” it’s a completely unnecessary one. Most people don’t know how to hand-crank an engine.

It’s actually an argument against artificially low speed limits; your alertness levels drop.

I saw this on a TV programme once about habitual speeders. They filmed a London cabbie who they made to drive to the speed limit. He was away with the fairies, not paying attention to anything and actually more dangerous than when he was I’m speeding. Not that I’m saying speeding is the solution, better driver training perhaps – there’s plenty to occupy your mind when driving if you know to look for it – but it’s certainly a thing.

Totally anecdotal, but driving my whistle and bell equipped company car is less tiring than my old Corsa. Consequentially, it’s easier to pay more attention to what’s going on around you, especially towards the end of a long journey, I feel a safer driver because of it.

Also anecdotally, on motorways if I have time I’ll often set cruise to 56/57/58 mph, idea being I’ll save fuel and won’t have to overtake anything – I expected not to be overtaken by trucks but it does happen (or I’ll notice one sneaking up on me and I’ll nudge the speed up a couple of mph so they don’t have to sit in the middle lane for a five minute overtake).

I’d be against an increase in the motorway limit as there seem to be a number of current drivers who don’t drive safely at current limits.

I agree the autopilot is an extreme example of it, but under-arousal is definitely a thing, we see it all the time in aviation.

I’d suggest aviation is different though, because you don’t have to actively steer around physical objects all the time. On most UK roads, you really do have to steer and drive all the time, otherwise you’ll run off the road and crash. Not the case in a plane is it?

My wife finds it harder to drive a manual or without satnav when she’s going somewhere new. Because concentrating on the road is top priority, and that edges out other things like navigating or selecting gears. Which is as it should be. Better to drive the wrong way safely than crash trying to go the right way. The road should demand ALL your attention – so the more you have to divert to operating the car, the less is available for driving, IMO.

If your attention is wandering whilst driving then surely having to do more stuff to operate the car is going to distract you all the more?