Can you rephrase that so it more directly answers the question?

Who are you asking, sorry?

You, and it really is just for clarification.

Oh, ok, sure.

“I don’t think that.”

Not sure what else I can do elaborate on that really; the original statement wasn’t mine.

hmmmmm, definitely not going to compare crimes with other crimes as I don’t see the point.

Wearing whatever or even nothing is never going to come slightly even close to a ‘she was asking for it’ justification, and I don’t think I’ve read (skimmed) anything in this thread that would suggest that.

As for caution, well, I exercise caution by having my keys out ready before I get to my front door, not being completely plastered, automatically lock the car doors if I’m sitting in the passenger seat by myself etc. I do this because I know some people would take the opportunity to attack, mug, rape me and I want to minimise risk.

In my ‘common sense’ mode – I think that girls who wear not very much or who dress to show all their flesh perhaps should anticipate more attention, but I’m fairly sure it’s also a women’s attitude/body language that contributes to how they are treated by people.
for some reason I feel I have to separate the clothes issue and the drinking issue. I see getting so drunk you don’t know where you are/who you’re with as pretty reckless whether you’re male or female.

One of my friends is South African and she won’t walk home alone in the dark, she crosses the street to avoid men, etc. We live in a fairly safe neighbourhood but her attitude is understandable as she has friends who have been raped and assaulted. thus I feel it’s hard to define an ‘acceptable’ level of precaution.

I see nothing wrong with education or prevention strategies, but I don’t think clothing by itself has much relevance. I’m also not saying people shouldn’t drink, but if you’re partially incapacitated I think you should put strategies in place to make sure you get home safely – prevent yourself getting hit by a car, falling down a ditch, etc.

Oh, ok, sure.

“I don’t think that.”

Not sure what else I can do elaborate on that really; the original statement wasn’t mine

but you responded to my question about it. But, Ok if you think the original statement was not true, then fine.

get a room you two 😛

YES! 😀

Thread RIP 😎

First support for the Slutwalkers. Yes girls, you can wear what you like and no I won’t take it as an invitation to rape you.

Now something that won’t go down as well with some. Some men and women do like to be dominated, some do like to be mistreated (but don’t see it as mistreatment because they like it). So guys and girls, how far are you prepared to go in being drawn into someone else’s game and how big a risk are you prepeared to take? Because if you judge the situation wrong either you’ll end up in clink or you’ll leave a very disappointed lady or guy. I’ve never wound up in clink but I’m certain I’ve disappointed.

Things are rarely black and white and you’re on your own to decide if the provocation includes consent. One thing you can be certain of if you are male, if you judge wrong and the lady cries rape then no-one is going to believe you.

Therefore I’ve no idea what the thought pattern is in them for wearing what they wear or possibly what they are trying to achieve by it, except a freedom of expression.

I suspect that ‘freedom of expression’ is pretty low down the list of reasons why you can go into any city centre on a weekend and see carbon copy girls in broadly the same outfits teetering about pished. For better or worse, social trends have shifted the definition of glamorous from Audrey Hepburn to Katy Price, from relatively demure to overtly sexualised. Alongside that, there appears to be a definite tendency to sexualise girls at an increasingly earlier age.

I’ll probably get roasted for this, but when you couple this sexualisation with the increasing availability of material for men which presents women as easy and available, you’re creating a social powderkeg in which girls who are guilty of nothing other than following fashion and getting a bit drunk find themselves the victims of men who are encouraged to think that being sexually aggressive is normal.

Women should have the freedom to go about their business free from the unwanted attentions of sexually aggressive men. By all means they should protest loudly and publicly when social attitudes or lawmakers inhibit that freedom – I’m just not convinced that doing so under the banner of a term that people tend to associate with sexual availability is really going to further that cause.

If sluts began to “dress down”, how would we know they’re sluts ?

Fred’s gawn awful quiet, hazzunt he?

yeah, maybe someone asked him a question.

but you responded to my question about it.

If you genuinely thought my reply was in any way serious, I hope you recover soon from your recent humourectomy.

sorry, my fault. I hadn’t noticed it was funny. Looking back at it I can see it was hilarious.

Some men and women do like to be dominated, (etc)

That’s a whole other discussion but,

a) I’d suggest that this isn’t generally a first-date / one night stand issue. I know many people of… shall we say “non-standard” sexuality and I can say with some authority that the core component is invariably trust. If I “went back to her place” with a girl and she told me all about her date-rape fantasy, the only thing I’d be beating would be a hasty retreat.

b) generally, if you were walking the darker path, you’d have safeguards in place. A safe word for instance, so you can scream “no, stop” as much as you like with both parties safe in the knowledge that they don’t really mean “stop” unless they shout “lemons” or something.

If I shout “lemons” will this thread stop?

no but Elfin and Ernie might come back

*spins 3 times and says “kaesae”*

sorry, my fault. I hadn’t noticed it was funny. Looking back at it I can see it was hilarious.

Humour is subjective, as you demonstrate.

Don’t see any point in reacting to some of the comments on here, but saddened that so much of it mirrors the debates and arguements that women were having 20 odd years ago but it still hasn’t changed. A couple of points to consider though:

– ‘common sense’ behaviour ie not being out alone at night in the city or not wearing ‘skimpy / revealing’ clothing. There is a very fine line between what is being suggested as ‘common sense’ and a legitimate right for women to go about their business. When I was a student in Leeds, 20 odd years ago, there was a series of rapes in the local area and thd police advised women not to go out alone after dark – well it was winter so dark at about 5pm – is that restriction acceptable or a total infringement of women’s liberty?

– re ‘skimpy clothing’ – the last time I got sexual hassle of a group of guys was when I was wearing Lycra shorts and a vest top road riding in hot weather – how far is it acceptable to ask women to choose what they wear so as too avoid unwanted attention?

– if nothing else the years and rape evidence should have shown us that restricting women in either their behaviour, dress, or location will never stop rape from occuring. The only way to reduce the incidence of rape is to put more resources and effort into addressing the causes on rape which centre around a small percentage of men’s attitudes towards control and violence towards women.

Humour is subjective, as you demonstrate

Stealing that line for future use hopefully against you.
CM there is a reason they did not respond to you and I think fear of your intelectual powers is not amongst them nor your Paxmanesque powers of questioning….you have added nothing of substance to this and had a playground style interchange with almost anyone willing to bite on here.

Some good points here (thread in general) and some predictable blandness.

This is a typical emotive single issue discussion. The problem is far bigger than cause and effect as it has been made to be. Motives are a good place to start:

Why would a woman choose to dress in such a way? Where are the images of femininity she copies coming from? Why does a man feel he can openly comment, respond or pursue a woman because he feels like it?

We objectify women horrendously, which is then adopted (look up eating disorders, dysmorphia, rise in plastic surgery etc.)and perpetuated. This has become normal and some males feel it is justified to treat females as they wish.

OP, you sound like you don’t know anyone who has been sexually abused. It’s a pretty good way to fu*k someone up for a very very long time. A number of people close to me have experienced it and the damage takes many years to repair.

As long as we continue to have females objectified and subordinate in our culture, this will happen at the level it does.

Let’s fight inflammatory with inflammatory: when a paedophile attacks a child, wasn’t the child “asking for it?”. Discuss. Still stand by your original point OP?

Rape has been trivialised and our gender stereotypes are ridiculous. people need to be educated and empathetic to one another. But then again surely all the women at the local pool should be wearing these: I swear they were all GAGGING for it.

Junkyard +1.

CM, your performance on this thread has been a bit of a shame really.

Some men and women do like to be dominated, (etc)

I’ve been avoiding this thread because it’s such a highly emotional topic and you lot argue anything but the comments you’ve made in your post edukator actually made me blow my top for the first time since I’ve been on this forum.. As cougar says sub/Dom activity (which is what you are making reference to) is such a different topic, your comment is incredible. You clearly know nothing about BDSM. there is an absolute difference between someone choosing to be dominated or dominating as part of a lifestyle choice and someone being forced to have sex with someone against their WILL. Way off the mark

Herman Shake – well put. I would also add that it isn’t just related to recent images / stereotypes of what is considered ‘feminine’. Our culture is historically founded on the subjugation of women. For example it is only fairly recently been recognised that ‘wifes’ can be raped by their husbands, as for a long time our society decreed that in marrying a women gave a man the right to have sex with her any time her wanted to, whether she consented or not.

my questions have only ever been to try to get to the root of people’s difference in beliefs. It helps the discussion and avoids bickering if the crux of the disagreement can be identified. They might not have been the most incisive of questions, but I have tried to answer the questions asked of me. if mine were banal,then they could be answered simply.

i really don’t mean to troll, but i really can’t see anything wrong with my line of questions. I’ve had some elss than kind response directed at me, and have tried to respond appropriately. It would be a formative experience for me if DD or JY could point out where i have acted shamefully.

Interesting thread

Rape is an incredibly emotive subject and I’m yet to meet anyone who doesnt have a strong opinion on it… in fact even though i sometimes work with rapists as part of my job I’m still yet to meet someone who doesnt think its wrong. So maybe the people arguing can take a breath and remember we all think rape is wrong and the effects are horrendous.

Men get raped too, a lot more than is reported. Consider all the prisons in the worlds and the gay community plus the rape of men by women. I’m under the impression that female victim numbers are (and if you consider all the cultures in which women don’t get a say in sex) higher, I’m guessing it will probably always be higher 🙁 The fact it happens at all is upsetting, so before reacting please remember all I’m attempting to point out is that this thread has created the impression that rape is nearly always a man-rapes-woman situation, statistics would suggest so but:

Personally I’m son of, brother to and friends of close to ten ladies/girls who have been raped. I’ve cared for (in my job) many women who have been raped and several men (mainly from the gay community, a couple from the prison services). One of my closest friends was raped by a girl as his “first time”. So in my ‘real life’ experience of rape the numbers of men and women who have been raped is much much closer than any stats would suggest… just something to consider?

Most of those people were raped by people they knew and the clothes they were wearing at the times, from what I understand of their stories, had nothing to do with the rape… neither was wandering around drunk at 3am.

With regards to objectifying women, the western culture (the one of which I am most familiar) seems to still find it socially acceptable. Pornography is more accessible than ever with the internet and free websites streaming hardcore content. A lot .. well I’ll go out on a limb and assume most pornography is written and directed by men, the content reflects a very male dominant mindset… If conversations with young guys are anything to go, by their perception of good sex revolves around acts in which the men are dominant the the women perform degrading/submissive acts… that can’t be a healthy sign for the future?

Lots of opinion going on but not much to back it up.

http://www.cer.truthaboutrape.co.uk/3.html

If we’re discussing the ‘she was asking for it as she was dressed like a slut’ type of rape (to go back to the OP and the link to Slutwalking) then I was surprised that 97% of callers to Rape Crisis lines knew their assailants and by the look of the other stats on the site most woke up next to him the previous morning.

EDIT cannot get link to work

Can anyone go along to these walks as a spectator?

probably not worth it…

There is a very fine line between what is being suggested as ‘common sense’ and a legitimate right for women to go about their business.

Absolutely.

police advised women not to go out alone after dark … is that restriction acceptable or a total infringement of women’s liberty?

It’s neither. It’s advice. Had they followed up with “so you’re all under curfew and if you’re seen on the streets you’ll be arrested” then you’re into liberty infringement territory. I don’t really see that “look, there’s a rapist at large, you might want to take a few extra precautions until we catch the bugger” is a restriction in any way; would you prefer that they’d said nowt and the criminal had subsequently claimed a few more victims instead?

Honestly. If the police advised me not to wear shorts for a couple of weeks in case I got forcibly dry-bummed by a passing lunatic, I’d be going out in motorcycle leathers with a metal tea-tray stuffed down my pants.

giantalkali – Member

probably not worth it…

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hc916/5608075672/sizes/m/in/photostream/

I don’t know, check out the legs on her on the right..And the double chin on the bloke? Phwoar!

I’d be going out in motorcycle leathers with a metal tea-tray stuffed down my pants.

genuine lol 😆 what a vision 🙂

giantalkali- Absolutely. Most women rape victims are raped by someone they know (born out by the stats).

It is a crime of power… not about sex. Thus it is largely irrelevent what a woman is wearing. I think this debate is a function of how defence lawers defend their clients. In court they will say anything to discredit the sexual character of the victim.

Until only fairly recently, spousal rape and homosexual rape was not recognised in law. Thankfully this has changed. However, surely as our definition of rape has expanded then so *should* have conviction rates. Sadly this isn’t the case. The simple truth being that it is very easy to accuse whilst paradoxically being extremely difficult to prove.

giantalkali- Absolutely. Most women rape victims are raped by someone they know (born out by the stats).

It is a crime of power… not about sex. Thus it is largely irrelevent what a woman is wearing.

OK fine – I wondered about that way back in the thread. Am I still allowed to think that dressing in a way that panders to male sexual objectification isn’t particularly healthy (while defending women’s right to do that if they really want), or does that make me a rapist?

Herman Shake – well put.

What, hysterical nonsense like this?

Let’s fight inflammatory with inflammatory: when a paedophile attacks a child, wasn’t the child “asking for it?”. Discuss. Still stand by your original point OP?

what a vision

Hey, don’t oppress me, I’ll wear what I like!!

nice one jackson, there’s a lot of high horses and trolls and not much in the way of considered thought going on here.

I could’ve taken a shortcut home the other night, but on reaching the entrance to a narrow and ill lit passage I thought, ‘No, looks a bit rapey’ and took the long way. I still arrived dripping wet and panting though…

most pornography is written and directed by men, the content reflects a very male dominant mindset

There’s a reason for that other than sexism though, it’s genetic. Generally speaking, men are more responsive to visual stimuli, whereas women are more predisposed to words and emotions. There are exceptions of course.

No it doesn’t. It makes your argument ridiculous.Reductio ad absudum

You can think what you like about how a woman dresses, but short skirts/tight tops etc. seems (statistically at least)to have little effect on the risk of rape.