Sir! Keir! Starmer!

and I think a lot of left leaning people will have voted for Starmer

There are huge numbers of these, myself included. They did so on the basis of Starmer’s promises to unify the party and maintain the policy agenda. He’s already ditched the first (and is actively working against it, rather than simply ignoring it), and the second is in serious question. If the left had better candidates than RLB and Burgon they would have walked to victory against Starmer. At even a conservative estimate, I reckon at least 50% of the membership are now against Starmer, and many of these are the activists relied upon to get the vote out in elections. If he thinks he can win an election with half his party feeling like they’ve been betrayed then he’s an idiot.

They did so on the basis of Starmer’s promises to unify the party and maintain the policy agenda.

You can’t make people unify. Starmer couldn’t control how Corbyn responded to the EHRC report. Corbyn has left Starmer with two options, BOTH of which would divide the party, and make it less electable. I think Starmer chose the wrong one, but EITHER response, withhold the whip or not, would damage the party. Thank you Mr Corbyn.

Like the last couple of elections it’s starting to look like I’ll have no one to vote for. Although basically a Conservative voter I never voted for May and certainly not Johnson.I wouldn’t vote for Corbyn either and not a hard left Labour party.

I dread the thought of another Conservative win unless they can radically change. I’ve considered voting Labour under Starmer but if they’re going tits up again that option will close…so a visit to the polling station and spoil my paper or vote for an absolute no-hoper.

Starmer couldn’t control how Corbyn responded to the EHRC report. Corbyn has left Starmer with two options, BOTH of which would divide the party, and make it less electable.

Corbyn new full-well that his sorry/not sorry ‘clarification’ the other day was effectively a hospital pass for Starmer and the Labour party. He knew the damage it would do to the party and its electoral prospects, he knew it would be a gift to the Tories and their mates in the right wing press, but he went ahead and did it anyway.

That pretty much sums him up as a man.

Like a petulant toddler

Like a petulant toddler

Hmmm.

Although basically a Conservative voter

So a conservative voter who wants to vote labour if only they had conservative policies and politicians. Why not just vote conservative instead of feeling guilty about it?

If anyone wants to see how the Tories are lapping this up, just look at Michael Gove’s Twitter. Corbyn seems determined to undermine his own party and keep the Tories in power for the next decade. Well done. Thanks mate. Great job. I’ve got Scotland’s only Labour MP and it would be quite nice if he wasn’t alone, but unless Corbyn shuts up and disappears he’ll do well to hang on.

Corbyn seems determined to undermine his own party and keep the Tories in power for the next decade.

So you think if he conceded to the likes of Margaret Hodge and admitted to being a racist, and by proxy the hundreds of thousands of members who support him are racists, that would be an end to the matter? And people accuse the left of being naive?

The reality is that there are two sides. The left demonstrated they were willing to move on by supporting Starmer in the leadership election and his intention to unify the party. The PLP rightwingers and their corporate backers decided they wanted to continue to use the AS issue to run the left out of the party and take full control. You have this the wrong way round.

admitted to being a racist

There was no need for him to do this. Rayner responded well to the EHRC report without having to accept being labelled as a “racist”, and Corbyn could have, and should have, as well. She acted in the best interests of the party, which I happen to believe is also in the best interest of all us here in the UK. I only wish Corbyn had as well.

What’s wrong with saying ‘we are proud of our anti racism but we also need to do better’ instead of this self flagellation about how awful Labour is?

If only Corbyn had had the nous and humility to say that in response to the report….

and admitted to being a racist

at the very least, all he had to say (as Grum pointed out last page) “we’re proud of our record, we will always strive to do better” but what he actually said was “we have nothing to learn especially not from people I don’t like, and are being mean to me, and it’s all a massive plot against me”

dazh – Had he shown any leadership qualities or humility at the point of the original report being published, he would have said something along the lines of sorry this happened on my watch and good luck to my successor in solving the problem. The entire current problem is down to his pathetic comms at the time. It wasn’t about him being racist – it was about him being the leader of an organisation which failed to tackle it properly. You know, leadership.

Leadership election is irrelevant. After two heavy election losses, you take your ideology and your personnel and you go away. Your successor shouldn’t have to use anything to marginalise you because the voters already did that.

Kelvin do you honestly think Corbyn would have been allowed the same level of acceptance and forgiveness that Rayner has? The only reason Rayner got away with that is because she’s largely irrelevant, and is not the target. Hodge and her fellow right wing travellers have made clear that nothing short of Corbyn being expelled will do, and that is in direct opposition to a majority in the membership. A few MPs on one side, hundreds of thousands of members on the other, it’s a fairly simple equation.

The only reason Rayner got away with that is because she’s largely irrelevant, and is not the target.

She got away with it because, on the day the report was published, she stuck to accepting the (legal) findings of the EHRC report and supporting the implementation of its findings. That was all that any Labour politician should have been doing on that day. Her only slip up was being drawn on Corbyn, and saying that she thought he had a blind spot as regards the problems highlighted in the report… she may well be right, but she should have tried to avoid saying that at the time, it didn’t help with the factionalism being fermented by those that will defend Corbyn against anything and everything that they see as an attack on him.

Kelvin do you honestly think Corbyn would have been allowed the same level of acceptance and forgiveness that Rayner has?

He could have at least tried. He never bothered. Instead he made a peevish non-apology and then played the victim. His favourite stance. Given that there were plenty of actual victims here, a stance that was even more distasteful than usual.

He’s not stopped digging since. Somebody really needs to take the shovel off him. Unfortunately, instead, he’s got his cheerleaders telling him that he’s the best shovel-operator EVER and the hole is absolutely bloody brilliant but it needs to be deeper because its such an honest and decent hole

those that will defend Corbyn against anything and everything that they see as an attack on him.

Or those who would defend him against being called a ‘f***** racist anti-semite’? Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot Corbyn could have done to diffuse the situation, and I agree he could have said something different after the EHRC report came out, but we’re talking about trying to compromise against that sort of attack by one of his own MPs. Compromise only works if it’s two-sided. I’ve not seen any evidence that Corbyn’s attackers are willing to do that in the interests of unity, quiite the opposite in fact, and that’s why the party is now in this mess.

You can’t make people unify. Starmer couldn’t control how Corbyn responded to the EHRC report. Corbyn has left Starmer with two options, BOTH of which would divide the party, and make it less electable. I think Starmer chose the wrong one, but EITHER response, withhold the whip or not, would damage the party. Thank you Mr Corbyn.

Corbyn is now trying to do damage out of spite and grudge holding. Man of principles, eh?

I’ve not seen any evidence that Corbyn’s attackers are willing to do that in the interests of unity, quite the opposite in fact, and that’s why the party is now in this mess

Starmer offered him the chance to just say sorry for his ‘exaggeration’ claims and he’d be back in the party and taking the whip

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. In fact, given the damage he’s caused, probably considerably more than he deserved.

For his troubles, Corbyn threw that back in his face and doubled down instead

Theres only one person to blame here, whether you want to accept that or not.

Starmer offered him the chance to just say sorry for his ‘exaggeration’ claims and he’d be back in the party and taking the whip

I presume you missed the story about what really happened? That Starmer had agreed to let him back in, then Hodge et al kicked off and threatened to resign, and Starmer got cold feet and sided with them. This all happened after Corbyn’s clarification and Starmer was fine with it, until Hodge lobbed in a grenade. There are two sides to every battle, so please lets stop with the fiction that this is all on Corbyn.

Poor Jeremy

He’s the real victim here.

I can’t see why Margaret Hodge is getting so uppity. It’s not like she’s been on the receiving end of deluges of vile racist abuse or anything, is it?

Oh…wait…hang on a minute….

Party unity.

Corbyn.

Erm…

For his troubles, Corbyn threw that back in his face and doubled down instead

That’s simply not true. Corbyn apologised, Keir accepted, then Keir changed tack and withdrew the whip. Keir could have just left it at that, but he didn’t.

OFC you’ll say that it wasn’t a “real apology”. But if Corbyn had made a “real apology”, you’d have said it wasn’t enough, he needed to apologise in person to all the PLP or some shit. Nothing he could have done would have been good enough – the constant misrepresentation (both from the press and the PLP lot) over the last few years is proof of that.

That’s simply not true. Corbyn apologised, Keir accepted, then Keir changed tack and withdrew the whip. Keir could have just left it at that, but he didn’t.

OFC you’ll say that it wasn’t a “real apology”. But if Corbyn had made a “real apology”, you’d have said it wasn’t enough, he needed to apologise in person to all the PLP or some shit. Nothing he could have done would have been good enough – the constant misrepresentation (both from the press and the PLP lot) over the last few years is proof of that.

All he has to say is that he accepts the findings in full

He hasn’t said it

Anywhere

At all

Corbyn apologised

If you think that what Corbyn has said at any point would qualify as an actual apology, then you have an odd definition of the word

At no point has he apologised

He has, however, made it all about him and continues to portray himself as the victim. Which given the actual victims here and what they’ve been on the receiving end of is pretty insensitive, to say the least.

All he has to say is that he accepts the findings in full

So if he did, do you everyone currently criticising would say “OK, no worries. Let’s all move on”?

That’s naive at best. The next day’s news would be full of “Corbyn admits to being antisemite”, “Corbyn must resign”, “Starmer retains racists in party”. There is no way to appease the binners-esque haters, no apology will ever be good enough.

what he actually said was “we have nothing to learn especially not from people I don’t like, and are being mean to me, and it’s all a massive plot against me”

This is the very strawiest of men. He just said he didn’t accept all of the report.

Exactly SamB. Meanwhile Margaret Hodge gets to stay in the party and exert influence despite being a tax-dodging darling of the BNP. Never mind that Keir Starmer took £50k from a pro Israeli lobby group with ties to the arms industry, and kept it secret. These are facts, and they don’t look good.

It’s not like she’s been on the receiving end of deluges of vile racist abuse or anything, is it?

And it’s not like Jeremy Corbyn personally commanded and composed every threatening tweet and email like some would have us believe. Like I said, two sides.

So a conservative voter who wants to vote labour if only they had conservative policies and politicians. Why not just vote conservative instead of feeling guilty about it?

You’re having a larf aren’t you? Vote for the current a*rseholes! And to make matters worse the actual Conservative candidate I’d be voting for is Gove.

It’s not like she’s been on the receiving end of deluges of vile racist abuse or anything, is it?

I’m sure JC has been on the receiving end of plenty of abuse too, what’s your point?

And it’s not like Jeremy Corbyn personally commanded and composed every threatening tweet and email like some would have us believe.

It all happened on his watch. An independent EHRC report was heavily critical of his lack of leadership which allowed it to happen.

To refuse to accept those findings then to make yourself out to be the one deserving of sympathy is pretty offensive all-round really

Still… he’s an honest and decent man, apparently. And that’s what matters. And Margaret Hodge and the like are just going to have to accept that

So, despite not having been leader for however long, Corbyn still dominates discussion aboh the Labour Party, even in a thread that’s titled like this one is.

It depresses me – I’ve moved left over the last, I dunno-15-20 years, and this just depresses me, because it feels like the bloody tories will be a shoe-in again because a credible opposition can’t pull itself together.

Still… he’s an honest and decent man

I’ve never met him but based on all the evidence that was available before (and after) the AS issue was politicised, I do firmly believe that, as do hundreds of thousands of others in the party. That is after all why he managed to trounce every establishment PLP challenger, and it’s why he gave millions hope that for the first time in decades, the political system might just act in the interests of the people rather than a tiny few at the top.

And then that hope was crushed due in most part to people within his own party who decided to politicise and personalise an issue which should never be used in that way, because it not only diminishes the cause itself, but also makes it worse by creating divisions which previously didn’t exist. AS existed long before Corbyn became leader, and was much more widespread than just the labour party. You wouldn’t really think that now though, because his enemies have managed to turn it into something focused on him and the labour party, and that’s pretty tragic.

It’s not like she’s been on the receiving end of deluges of vile racist abuse or anything, is it?

I’m sure JC has been on the receiving end of plenty of abuse too, what’s your point?

that in JC’s case none of it was antisemitic, and what we’re talking about is antisemitism.

As for give and take, you don’t compromise with or choose the bits you like from a report which has a legal status. I’m sure JC’s not personally antisemitic and it would not be surprising if he felt bruised by the whole thing. But really, so what?

It depresses me – I’ve moved left over the last, I dunno-15-20 years, and this just depresses me, because it feels like the bloody tories will be a shoe-in again because a credible opposition can’t pull itself together.

Similar thinking here. Too many unwavering opinions and vendettas

It depresses me – I’ve moved left over the last, I dunno-15-20 years, and this just depresses me, because it feels like the bloody tories will be a shoe-in again

So much this. To all the active Labour members on this thread, please, please stop this dragging on and distracting your party and the electorate from the key issue. The ECHR report needs to be the end of it.

It’s not about Corbyn. It’s not about Starmer. It’s not about the Labour party. It’s about the future of this country and all who live in it. Get over yourselves and do the right thing.

To all the active Labour members on this thread, please, please stop this dragging on and distracting your party and the electorate from the key issue.

Why do you think its labour members and activists dragging this on? They want it to go away more than anyone.

Lots of valid points above, but one salient fact remains.

The best thing Corbyn can do for the Party he has devoted his life to is to shut up, tip his hat surreptitiously to those who played him and keep quiet. His consolation can be that by doing so he is not carrying on playing the game Labour’s enemies want him to.

De Pfeffel has managed to need to self isolate by being a bellend. The government is being exposed as granting hundreds of millions to their mates in unscrutinised PPE contracts. We are about to make a No Deal Brexit in just over a month a certainty.

The whole news agenda should be focussing on what this bunch of crooks and idiots are trying to get away with, but high up the agenda is Corbyn bickering.

The best thing Corbyn can do for the Party he has devoted his life to is to shut up, tip his hat surreptitiously to those who played him and keep quiet.

I’d agree if that guaranteed the end of it, but I don’t think for a second it would. Nothing will ever be enough for these people.

I think grandad finally shuffling off to the allotment with a pledge to STFU would be more than enough for everyone

The Tory’s could give him a knighthood for services rendered, to puff up his enormous ego and momentum members could take it in turns to sit and fawn at him by the garden shed and listen to his stories about how he single-handedly ended apartheid.

Daz – you could take up one of your obscenely overpriced IPA’s and he could have a camomile tea and you can plot the green revolution while he tends to his runner beans 😃

The Tory’s could give him a knighthood for services rendered

You seem confused. Johnson have happily rewarded several of the rabid “centrists” who carried out their job for them.
Maybe thats why Hodge is doubling down in order to get into the Lords?

I’d agree if that guaranteed the end of it, but I don’t think for a second it would. Nothing will ever be enough for these people.

I think it’s really worth a try.