Sir! Keir! Starmer!

These are politicians, it’s what they do.

The greater problem for Starmer is that this is no longer primarily about Corbyn IMO. It’s about the ability of party members to hold deeply felt political opinions about Israel and the Palestinian situation without being called a racist. Until recently having a political stance against the actions of Israel in Palestine wasn’t at all controversial. Now however even just the mention of the subject raises the suspicion of anti-semitism. Starmer isn’t trying to resolve that, he’s fuelling it and siding with people who do not want the labour party to succeed. By doing so he’s putting himself against huge numbers of people in the party who are becoming more and more angry at being smeared with the worst of accusations. This isn’t going to go away, it’s going to get worse.

Until recently having a political stance against the actions of Israel in Palestine wasn’t at all controversial. Now however even just the mention of the subject raises the suspicion of anti-semitism.

What a load of bullshit Dazh. Sorry. None of this is about restricting criticism of the Israeli government’s actions in Palestine.

This isn’t going to go away, it’s going to get worse.

Very true. What action could Starmer take now that would make it “go away”?

What a load of bullshit

It really isn’t. I know loads of educated, liberal and passionate anti-racists – which I count myself as one – who are now scared to talk about Israel-Palestine for fear of being called an anti-semite. They look to the leadership to diffuse this ridiculous situation and try to bring back a modicum of respect, but they see the opposite, and the longer it goes on the more depressed and angry they become. Deny it if you like, but I can guarantee you it exists.

What action could Starmer take now that would make it “go away”?

It’s too late now, he’s planted his flag on the battlefield. There’s no going back.

 Now however even just the mention of the subject raises the suspicion of anti-semitism.

oh, best not then, as my partners schul just raised money on behalf of an Israeli charity that provides medical and dental treatment for Palestinians

really, dazh, tone it down a bit, yeah?

It’s too late now, he’s planted his flag on the battlefield. There’s no going back.

While you’re toning it down a bit, do you think we also can we do away with the hysterical militaristic references as well. You’re starting to sound like a leftie Boris Johnson 😉

Is ‘tone it down’ a bit like ‘I’m telling you to stfu’? Asking for a friend.

No, Dazh really is a lovely fella with passionate beliefs I don’t think any of us who know him IRL (me Binners and Kelvin at least on this thread) have ever had a argument with him, it would be like smacking a puppy.

Binners asking people not to be hysterical 🤣

While you’re toning it down a bit

Pots and kettles? Anyway yes, I’ll shut up, as I’m generally not comfortable talking about it, for all the reasons I’ve stated. I know for a fact I’m not a racist, and hopefully those that know me know that too.

I don’t think anyone would conceivably accuse you of racism mate. You’re the leftiest person I know.

You make Jeremy Corbyn look like Fatcha 😀

What a load of bullshit Dazh. Sorry. None of this is about restricting criticism of the Israeli government’s actions in Palestine.

It really is. Not directly by Starmer but indirectly because any criticism of Isreal gets you called anti semite.

Rightly or wrongly, anti-semitism has become a real issue for Labour, JC’s approach clearly didn’t work while he was leader (regardless if he was correct or not), sometimes you have to accept politics is a dirty business, hold your nose and make the best decisions which doesn’t always hold with what you believe.

JC’s recent comments show he still has no grasp on the damage he’s causing, say the right thing, retire into the back benches and the whole affair would soon be yesterdays news

The greater problem for Starmer is that this is no longer primarily about Corbyn IMO. It’s about the ability of party members to hold deeply felt political opinions about Israel and the Palestinian situation without being called a racist.

All the more reason to put the whole anti-semitism issue to bed.

I know for a fact I’m not a racist

I’m pretty damn sure you aren’t either. Not sure how that’s relevant to what Starmer does now as regards Corbyn to get Labour out of this hole. I’ve said that I think he should reinstate the whip… but acknowledge that would end nothing… the best opportunity to start to close this down properly was when the report was published… and at that time ALL the front bench said what needed saying, and committed to what needed doing… I thought Rayner and Starmer both led well there… but Corbyn decided to keep this going, rather than do the same. He messed up that opportunity for Labour, and now there are no good options… only bad and worse ones… for Labour.

It really isn’t. I know loads of educated, liberal and passionate anti-racists – which I count myself as one – who are now scared to talk about Israel-Palestine for fear of being called an anti-semite.

The days of discussing sensitive topics without being called names is long gone. The Labour party should acknowledge it, since its members and supporters have a lot to do with it. Hence the irony of JC complaining about anti-Semitism being exaggerated, even if to some it is done rightly so.

While you’re toning it down a bit, do you think we also can we do away with the hysterical militaristic references as well. You’re starting to sound like a leftie Boris Johnson 😉

Brilliant as always Binners. You absolute ledge!!!

These lefties don’t like it up ’em.
They hate that Sir Kee Kee is a politics genius who plays on a 4D chessboard.
Just like Sir Winston, he’s a fearless fighter waging war against a Nazi threat.
By slagging Special K the lefty sixth form types have outed themselves as Jew haters.
Case closed. Get rid!!
No, we won’t have that in our party.
We are decent people who just want to get our country back.
To stop the immigrants, to get behind our military boys and support HRH.

Corbyn was far too grumpy and stubborn to shut up/toe the line last week, and knew he would open a can of worms with what he said. What an utter fool.
I think SKS has done the right thing in the circumstances, and has shown some leadership. Fair play.
Corbyn needs to realise that if Labour is to become electable, he needs to STFU!

say the right thing, retire into the back benches and the whole affair would soon be yesterdays news

Lots of wishful thinking here I think! Remember that you’re talking about “journalists” who picked out photos of Corbyn walking to the cenotaph and arranged them to look like he was dancing; made a song and dance about a coat being “too scruffy”; photoshopped a red Russian background and hat into a background photo of a piece about him; etc.

There’s no way they’d just accept an apology and move on. The next step would be binners-esque cries of “it’s not a real apology”, demands that he resign immediately for his failure, demonising Starmer for not doing more, etc. The constant hounding won’t be stopped by simply apologising – the right-wind press won’t allow it.

EDIT: to illustrate my point:

Who could have predicted this would happen?

(Don't all reply at once). pic.twitter.com/ORLTUkuk4I

— Aaron Bastani (@AaronBastani) November 18, 2020

Relying on Dr Aaron Bastani for any point might not be helping your case.

Have you tried reading the tweet by Jenrick that he quoted? I don’t think Bastani is doing much heavy lifting in this one.

It doesn’t matter who points it out, I have no idea who Bastani but an ad hom isn’t usually considered a good argument.

The fact is that the witch-hunt will never stop, and the Labour Party can never do enough self-flagellation.

We are now getting lectures about racism from a man who’s PM calls black people grinning picanninies with watermelon smiles (and gay people bum-boys), and has never apologised for it. From a party where the Muslim Council of Britain has called for an investigation into Islamophobia (not been done for some reason), where Baroness Warsi had to leave because of racism saying ‘It feels like I’m in an abusive relationship’.

Have you tried reading the tweet by Jenrick that he quoted?

Probably awful like the man (Jenrick)

Conservatives need to clean their house as well, the sooner they do it the better

because any criticism of Isreal gets you called anti semite.

conversely; does support for Israel get you called a part of the Israeli lobby? or World-wide Jewish influence?

You do know that the Israeli lobby is a real thing don’t you? It’s not the same as a worldwide jewish conspiracy although some people would love to conflate the two.

.

Nice one Keir.

When Thelma Walker, one of Labour’s loyalest of the loyal, feels so strongly that she resigns then it’s time voices like hers are listened to. People with lifetimes of service and support for the party are leaving because of their sense of injustice. This needs sorting & fast. https://t.co/ONufvsmn8X

— John McDonnell MP (@johnmcdonnellMP) November 18, 2020

Who?

Can you just remind us again how many labour MPs voted against Jeremy Corbyn in a vote of no confidence?

Shall I refresh your memory?

172

Everything’s relative

Meanwhile, even before all this blew up – more people thought Boris Johnson would make a better PM and the Conservatives are ahead of Labour too.

This against possibly the most inept government we’ve ever seen blundering from u-turn to u-turn to corruption scandal.

https://www.survation.com/uk-political-polling-conservatives-below-40-points/

Who?

Can you just remind us again how many labour MPs voted against Jeremy Corbyn in a vote of no confidence?

Shall I refresh your memory?

172

Everything’s relative

& that was a massive cock up on their part wasn’t it? Bunch of first class bell ends the lot of them.

Labour had managed to get ahead in the polls. I fully expect this mess to mean they will lose ground again. Just when the Conservatives needed help, Labour oblige. Anyone who thinks Starmer is the central person dragging Labour into the mud now, aren’t going to change their minds now. For them it just couldn’t be Corbyn, so it must be his successor. Members will leave. Support for Labour will drop. Johnson gets his get out of jail card when he needs it most. And it was all avoidable. But it needed a coordinated and clear response across the party to the EHRC report… most managed that.

You think Starmer has handled this situation well?

No. But there is no good way to handle it now it has got to here. The mess was made on the day the EHRC report was published. There are no good options for Labour now.

Once again Magic Grandads constant, pathetically narcissistic need for adulation and to be the centre of attention gift-wraps another present for Boris and his chums, just when they really needed it

With labour ahead in the polls, Boris needed Jezza to deliver. And, as always, he duly obliged.

In spades

He’s a Tory plant

It’s the only rational explanation

As for those who bought into his shtick? Well…

I could just as well argue that JC could have quietly rejoined labour and become an irrelevance again without people like Margaret Hodge chiming in and threatening to leave unless he’s hung, drawn and quartered.

FWIW I think what JC originally said was politically very stupid – it was also true. But that doesn’t seem to matter any more.

Once again Magic Grandads binners’ constant, pathetically narcissistic need for adulation and to be the centre of attention…

FWIW I think what JC originally said was politically very stupid – it was also true.

It was the wrong response. At the wrong time. And it has mired the Labour Party in all this ongoing ____.

I could just as well argue that JC could have quietly rejoined labour and become an irrelevance again

He’s made a very lucrative, if utterly useless career at being irrelevant

His only significant contributions have been gifts to the Tory party

He lost two elections and is now doing his upmost to see labour lose the next one. Aided by Len and the rest of his handsomely remunerated ‘socialist’ fellow class warriors

We really should all bow down to these Millionaire Marxists and thank them for their contribution to ‘the struggle’. They’re playing a blinder

Margaret Hodge chiming in and threatening to leave unless he’s hung, drawn and quartered.

As I’ve said before, they want blood, and damn the consequences. The PLP want their party back. F*** the members, F*** the activists, f*** the trade unionists, f*** the voters. This is going to be a war between the PLP and the membership like no other, and the only winners will be the tories.

This isn’t the 80s with a fringe minority of nutters, the membership are far stronger now, and Starmer is going to find out the price of going back on his primary promise.

I really do think you overestimate how much of the membership are rabid Corbyn supporters.

They are a very loud group but I’d confidently predict the number of voters lost because after two failed elections a new brush was required will be significantly out numbered by voters coming back because they couldn’t vote for J-Wow.

I absolutely agree with Kelvin’s points up there. Which are the same as binners points but less inflammatory 🤣

I really do think you overestimate how much of the membership are rabid Corbyn supporters

I agree with this. A vocal minority. Frankly, if they remain in the party, they will divide it come the next election and gift the Tories a win. If Starmer kicks them out now he may have time to rebuild centre Labour support and possibly win the next election.

It’s a very fine political judgement call.

I really do think you overestimate how much of the membership are rabid Corbyn supporters

If they were as numerous as you suggest then Rebecca Wrong-Daily, Jezza’s representative on earth, would be the present leader of the labour party

As a reminder for you, here’s the results of the leadership election:

Keir Starmer – 56.2%
Rebecca Long-Bailey – 27.6%
Lisa Nandy – 16.2%

I don’t think there are many ‘rabid Corbyn supporters’, I’m certainly not. But what there is is a lot of people towards the left of the party (especially activists who actually do stuff IRL) who will feel that this is a shabby, divisive thing to do – and feel very disillusioned that the labour party has allowed a mostly proud record of anti racism to be thrown in the bin.

What’s wrong with saying ‘we are proud of our anti racism but we also need to do better’ instead of this self flagellation about how awful Labour is?

Re those leadership stats – RLB got over a quarter of the vote, and I think a lot of left leaning people will have voted for Starmer hoping he would be the unifier he claimed to be, but isn’t.