Sir! Keir! Starmer!

Ok, so that is a ‘no’, then.

sigh we are back to the primary school level of debate I see.

exactly this. I can’t find the link but I read that the overwhelming majority of Tory-held marginals were Leave-voting towns. Labour has a stranglehold on areas dominated by liberal/ left Remain-voting middle classes, but could come under pressure from any Lib Dem revival. Corbyn tried and failed to square that circle: it remains to be seen what Starmer will do.

He should do that by not fighting the referendum again. Policy of “constructive engagement / close alliance” with the EU slowly unveiled as the tories eff it all up

He should do that by not fighting the referendum again. Policy of “constructive engagement / close alliance” with the EU slowly unveiled as the tories eff it all up

This.

Thanks for saying it in about 300 less words than I could manage.

Wavering Leave voters have to be told they made an epic **** up, but it needs doing bit by bit, slowly and making sure it doesn’t look like sabotage.

sigh we are back to the primary school level of debate I see.

Well if you are going to keep dodging the question by saying ‘I want the entire world to change and come around to my views rather than adapt’ then that is what you are going to get.

What is Johnson’s majority again? Did he make gains?

Labour wasn’t electable under Corbyn. The evidence speaks for itself.

Id recommend you all listen to the latest ‘Remainiacs’ podcast as it has the authors of ‘Left Out: The Inside Story of Labour Under Corbyn” to talk about the infighting.

Some revelations like the party’s left leaking a story to the Sun to undermine the party’s Right

For someone who prefers to listen to the authors discuss the book’s bullet points in a podcast rather than actually read a political book it’s ideal 🙂

dannyh:

Anyway enough of this foreplay.

Do you want an electable Labour Party or not?

Well if you are going to keep dodging the question by saying ‘I want the entire world to change and come around to my views rather than adapt’ then that is what you are going to get.

To be fair though, it’s a pretty rubbish question when the only answer you’ll accept is a Labour lurch to the right to gain the necessary votes. You and others talk as if this will guarantee a win at the next election- but fail to acknowledge that some people won’t shift that far, they need more.
Also it’s a bit rich to complain the left won’t adapt, when the right of the Labour Party did all they could to undermine Corbyn et al.

How on Earth do you see,

want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented.
Not just the centrists.

as “wanting the entire world to change”?

want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented.
Not just the centrists.

If you think that is achievable in four years then you need to lay off of whatever you are on.

There is constant infighting in the Labour Party and briefing from both sides.

It’s incredibly annoying when you try to rise above it and concentrate on winning an election.

The infighting comes from those that see their opinions and their brand of Labour politics as more important than the people who suffer from ongoing Tory govt. It’s also a noisy minority of the party amplified through social media as well.

Most members just want to unite around a broad left agenda and policies – social and economic justice, climate change action – and winning an election.

as “wanting the entire world to change”?

The posters been active for quite a while now, I’d reasonably assume its cumulative rather than singular.

I want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented. Not just the centrists.

How? What would you do to make this happen?

There is constant infighting in the Labour Party and briefing from both sides.

This. It’s just crazy.

Most members just want to unite around a broad left agenda and policies – social and economic justice, climate change action – and winning an election.

I’m not a Labour member but that sums it up for me.

Basically I will willingly put my shoulder to the wheel and pay my taxes if it contributes towards a society where public services are fit for purpose and those in need of help are helped.

This is an easy message to sell too. The cost of Brexit is so large now, that it actually represents a tangible number to every working person. My taxes are going towards something that is going to damage my country irreparably. You could argue that about our ‘mission’ in Afghanistan or similar, of course. But Brexit really is the most spectacular waste of money, credibility, potential, effort you could imagine.

When the time is right I expect some Labour campaigning to be along the lines of “This Tory Brexit has so far cost every man, woman and child in this country £x and what has it delivered?”

They will need to couch it gently – “The notions behind Brexit like sovrunty and standing on our own feet are things that we believe in too”.

There is also plenty of room for chastened Leavers to row back to.

“Yes, I did vote to Leave, but it was not with No Deal chaos in mind. I would have accepted a Norway+”.

There is no point in trying to push for whether they know the first thing about what that actually means. There will be positions to retreat to and save a bit of face. And ‘face’ is what prevents many Leavers admitting they were sold a pup.

Nudge, nudge, nudge, oh….. critical mass…

but could come under pressure from any Lib Dem revival

Thanks for the belly laugh! Not going to happen. And I was a LibDem member once. In England at the next election it’ll be a two horse race more than ever before… that can be either hard right vs hard left… or it can be hard right vs left leaning. I’m voting the same way whichever path Labour takes… but we all know which is more likely to lead to getting the hard right out of office.

Most members just want to unite around a broad left agenda and policies – social and economic justice, climate change action – and winning an election.

That is all I want. No party is ever going to represent exactly what I want down to each policy but that is just something that needs to be accepted and the best fit is what you go for. By not voting for the closest fit because of this or that is not helping anyone.

Same here. My politics are more Corbyn than Starmer… I still back unilateralism when it comes to getting rid of nukes, for example… but I want a better government, that will serve everyone, and who enough people will vote for… not an opposition that perfectly matches my own policy desires, because not enough people agree with me on so many issues, and I can accept that without seeing those I need to compromise with as the ‘enemy’, or ‘red Tories’, or ‘centrists’, or ‘establishment stooges’.

If a Labour leader can’t get himself nearly unequivocal support from the Guardian, where can they?

Socialist Worker?

Razzle?

The Guardian supported the lib Dems in 2010. Do you think this was because Gordon Brown was too left wing?

The Guardian supported the lib Dems in 2010. Do you think this was because Gordon Brown was too left wing?

It won’t be a problem next time around, the Toxic Tory Reverse Midas Touch has seen to that.

At that point I seem to remember that the Libdems were perceived, in many ways, to the left of Labour.

johnx2

Free Member

I want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented. Not just the centrists.

How? What would you do to make this happen?

Also note.

No answer to that question.

Unsurprisingly.

Labour:

Give. Me. A. Political. Home.

Ahahahaha! FFS man you had one. Everything you describe, from the lack of a pension pot to a wife working for the NHS would have been better off under a labour govt and the policies they were proposing. But you couldn’t support that because you didn’t like the leader and some of his supporters. Instead you want them to pander to the idiots in the centre who can’t see past the next Daily Mail headline who will ensure that those policies which would benefit you are diluted or got rid of altogether. You are exactly the sort of person who has most to gain from the policies which were proposed by labour in the last election.

Here is my “pie in the sky” solution to the present political mess.

At the next election (assuming the UK still exists in 4 years time) Labour would field no candidates in Scotland and the Lib Dems and Greens etc would field no candidates in England/Wales. Why would they agree to that? Basically, have an agreement in place that should the SNP and Labour gain enough seats together to be able to form a coalition to govern, then they will push through a change to the voting system to one of PR. Effectively the election would be a referendum on this one topic, and if they were able to form a government then this would be the sole purpose of the government. Once legislation is passed to update our antiquated FPTP system, then a new election can be called under the new PR system. At this point you will see a reorganisation of traditional parties and the emergence of new ones (Momentum has a nice ring to it!), and a realistic chance of sensible coalition government where far less people feel disenfranchised as with the current shit show.

Basically needs 50% of the population of England and Wales (can probably count on the SNP to deliver) to not vote for the Cons.

Any chance?

Nah

Like I said. Pie in the sky.

If it is not done now though with the help of the SNP then it may well be too late to ever do it again if Scotland does leave the Union.

Ahahahaha! FFS man you had one. Everything you describe, from the lack of a pension pot to a wife working for the NHS would have been better off under a labour govt and the policies they were proposing. But you couldn’t support that because you didn’t like the leader and some of his supporters. Instead you want them to pander to the idiots in the centre who can’t see past the next Daily Mail headline who will ensure that those policies which would benefit you are diluted or got rid of altogether. You are exactly the sort of person who has most to gain from the policies which were proposed by labour in the last election.

I voted Labour in the last election, chump. Ahahahaha!

I encouraged anyone I know who would listen to me to vote tactically, and gave them the tools to do so. If they couldn’t be arsed to use the online stuff I asked them to please vote Labour. No matter how hard they had to hold their nose.

As I said, it isn’t me you’ve got to convince. But you keep going if it makes you feel like the big man. That would be typical of you. Fight the people who are already on your side because you are too gutless to take on the real enemy.

If only everyone was as brave as you Danny! Fighting battles from behind your keyboard every day /swoon

Tories & Labour will never go for PR – too selfish. PR is the silver bullet. We need Farage to get on it.

The penny needs to drop with labour that the only chance they’ll ever govern again is as the largest party in a coalition brought about by PR. I’m assuming the SNP will have gone. So 80/10/10 labour /lib Dems / green. Sounds pretty sweet. Although a Laila Moran led lib Dems would fit in better there

If only everyone was as brave as you Danny! Fighting battles from behind your keyboard every day /swoon

You keep digging at me, fella. I voted Labour, remember. I’m already on your side. Maybe I’m not in your faction (PFJ or JPF?), but I’m already with you. Presumably I’m not truly worthy because my party number isn’t single digit. But that’s ok.

Looking on the bright side, the longer you keep arguing with people who are already on your side the longer you put off having to address the issues that would make Labour electable to enough people to actually be elected.

The bit that is often missed about the PFJ/JPF scenes in Life of Brian is how Reg and his mates shit themselves at the first sign of the real enemy. Much more comfortable arguing amongst themselves. Don’t have to face reality that way.

Ahahahaha! FFS man you had one. Everything you describe, from the lack of a pension pot to a wife working for the NHS would have been better off under a labour govt and the policies they were proposing. But you couldn’t support that because you didn’t like the leader and some of his supporters. Instead you want them to pander to the idiots in the centre who can’t see past the next Daily Mail headline who will ensure that those policies which would benefit you are diluted or got rid of altogether. You are exactly the sort of person who has most to gain from the policies which were proposed by labour in the last election.

I can’t really understand where the assumptions in this post come from.

Do you really judge everyone not aligning with your view of the left as a Daily Mailer?

Do you really judge everyone not aligning with your view of the left as a Daily Mailer?

Yes he does.

Ideological purity. It is the future. You just have to wish it, then the electorate comes to you.

I believe the phrase is “Build it and they will come”. Didn’t work the first 2 times and was actually getting worse each time with more seats lost but keep trying, it will surely work one day.

Here’s a thought, maybe it is not want the majority of people actually want.

It won’t be a problem next time around, the Toxic Tory Reverse Midas Touch has seen to that.

At that point I seem to remember that the Libdems were perceived, in many ways, to the left of Labour.

Ah, so the Guardian supported the Lib Dems in 2010 because Nick Clegg was more left wing than Gordon Brown. Not that its support for Labour is far from guaranteed, and you were talking cobblers.

If you carry on like this, you will rapidly run out of feet to shoot.

And in one page of the Internet it all becomes revealed why the Tory party has been so successful, It’s not because everyone thinks they will do such a fantastic job, it’s because the Left can’t stop squabbling amongst themselves.

Still more interested in being Trots and Tankies after all these years…idiots

Still more interested in being Trots and Tankies after all these years…idiots

It’s just a thought, but perhaps lay off the sub-binners name calling if you want to take the moral high ground.

I was just about to suggest the same as welshfarmer. I want labour to get PR in so we can finally vote how we feel not how we least dislike. I’d be tempted to suggest the best way is to go full cynical Tory lite on the manifesto to win the GE and then just sneak in a switch to PR followed by a move back to the left. But just as unlikely to happen as the previous suggestion, oh well.

but perhaps lay off the sub-binners name calling

You really are in love with him, aren’t you? He’s metaphorically pulling your pigtails in the playground and running away…

Everything you need to know about Trots and Tankies

Anyway ransos, seeing as you clearly don’t want the votes of anyone vaguely centrist I thought you might like to lay out your plans for retrieving your Red Wall Racists from Cummings’s lot.

Or is it more ‘build it and they will come’ tosh?

The Guardian has not supported labour for a long time. It a liberal paper

You really are in love with him, aren’t you? He’s metaphorically pulling your pigtails in the playground and running away…

To be honest, I only come on here nowadays for the barely-suppressed, homoerotic sexual tension

To be honest, I only come on here nowadays for the barely-suppressed, homoerotic sexual tension

Standing naked in a circle reciting Das Kapital from memory until someone goes wrong? A sharp thwack with a rolled up copy of Socialist Worker and it is the next person’s go.

A bit like a public school initiation ‘ragging’ but with matching overalls to be worn after.

Anyway ransos, seeing as you clearly don’t want the votes of anyone vaguely centrist I thought you might like to lay out your plans for retrieving your Red Wall Racists from Cummings’s lot.

Or is it more ‘build it and they will come’ tosh?

It’s not clear to me why you wish to ascribe views to me that I do not hold. Perhaps it’s to deflect attention away from your demonstrably false statements.

You really are in love with him, aren’t you? He’s metaphorically pulling your pigtails in the playground and running away…

Name calling it is, then. Suit yourself, but it does undermine your attempt at the high ground.

The left really is ****ed