Sir! Keir! Starmer!

Electability or doctrinal purity? Which do you prefer? If it is the former you have to assess Corbyn’s performance in elections.

Johnson got the former spot on, but I don’t suppose you’re suggesting that Starmer should follow the same path.

Johnson got the former spot on, but I don’t suppose you’re suggesting that Starmer should follow the same path.

No, because the reasons Labour were unelectable under Corbyn are different, as well you know. That’s a weak, weak post.

You can bring out all the negative connotations you like about Blair and corporatising Labour. You can even go after the very bad choices he made afterwards if you like. You can even go for Iraq being the start of the slippery slope towards the popularity of ‘anti-politicians’.

But the fact remains that the only labour leader to win a general election since 1974 was good old Tone. You don’t like this, I can tell. “Oh if only the electorate could see what I see etc”.

Well, the electorate don’t. What they are currently seeing, though, is a tired old pissed-up panto act thrashing around in a mess entirely of his and his party’s own making. And someone who is doing a good job of looking composed, on top of his brief and who is not offering anything up to the Tory press to use against him. It is working so far.

As I and others have said, what Starmer should be working proactively on is a road map out of Shitshowville and back to some form of sense and standing as a credible nation. I suspect he already is, but I’m afraid the public are going to have to actually feel enough pain first.

If it is the latter then you might as well shut the door to the common room* and carry out interminable debates amongst yourselves until eternity.

The implication here that there’s no point trying to change our corrupt system of government to work in favour of normal people because ‘that’s just the way it is’. Well I don’t accept that. The doctrinal purity you talk about is not on the left, it’s on the side which treats a political and economic system which has proven time and again that its not fit for purpose as immutable. It’s absolutely not, but it will never be changed while people who suffer as a result of that system allow themselves to be misled and disenfranchised. The main question now is will Starmer seek to change this system or leave it as is? I think we all probably know the answer to that.

The implication here that there’s no point trying to change our corrupt system of government to work in favour of normal people because ‘that’s just the way it is’. Well I don’t accept that. The doctrinal purity you talk about is not on the left, it’s on the side which treats a political and economic system which has proven time and again that its not fit for purpose as immutable. It’s absolutely not, but it will never be changed while people who suffer as a result of that system allow themselves to be misled and disenfranchised. The main question now is will Starmer seek to change this system or leave it as is? I think we all probably know the answer to that.

That’s a really long way of saying “Ideological purity rather than electability”.

So irrelevant debating club it is then?

Ace.

The doctrinal purity you talk about is not on the left, it’s on the side which treats a political and economic system which has proven time and again that its not fit for purpose as immutable.

But you have to convince a majority of voters that you have a viable alternative to that. Last time this was attempted by blurting out electoral promises like an ADHD teenager with Tourette’s. Free broadband for everyone!!! And a puppy!!!

People just didn’t see it as credible, so delivered a thumping great majority to the Tories instead. If people won’t vote for it, then it’s dead in the water. You have to win power or your manifesto is just a wish list, not worth the paper it’s printed on. You might as well just wipe your arse with it.

So the trick for Starmer is to deliver increased equality and more social justice without scaring the horses.

There was another bloke who managed it quite successfully. What was his name again? Won three elections on the bounce? You remember him…

Free broadband for everyone!!! And a puppy!!!

I’m still waiting for my owl.

flash – anything worthwhile to say?
I see there have been multiple examples of tory gov incompetence today; just another ‘day at the office’ for them.

The trick for Labour is to not say they are going to reform but do it when they get elected a la les Tories.

Free broadband is a good idea btw. Just not a good idea for Corbz to promise when nobody trusted him with the purse strings.

Free broadband is a good idea btw. Just not a good idea for Corbz to promise when nobody trusted him with the purse strings.

I’m afraid working class people in this country are spiteful and pretty nasty, well the ones that bother to vote anyway. The ones I met saw it as pandering to the iphone generation, students **** themselves silly, starring into their phones all day “why should they get it for free when I have to pay” almost Paul Calf!

These people seem to vote on the basis of other groups of people being complete dickheads and it’s their mission to put a stop to it. It really fires them up/get’s them up in the morning, they love it.

As a Guardian-reading hand-wringer my thoughts were the polar opposite of that.

I thought ‘why on earth spend billions of pounds of taxpayers money on something most people like myself can easily afford? You’ll just end up effectively subsidising middle class peoples Sky TV packages. Why not just provide free broadband to the people who can’t afford it? Even better.., why not make the benefits system fairer so that people can afford it?

It was a stupid policy! Especially as it was announced with a huge TA-DAAAAAA! Flourish.

why not make the benefits system fairer so that people can afford it?

Don’t start them on that topic it’s like red rag to a bull!

A fair point.

When the furlough ends next month an awful lot of them are going to be finding out the difference between the “free massive telly, unlimited Stella and Lambert & Butler to sit around in your arse all day, watching Homes Under the Hammer” image portrayed in the daily mail and the actual reality of rent arrears, evictions, house repossessions, whole families living in one room of a gritty B&B and food banks so you can eat

The indoctrinated hate runs deep. There will always be some “scum” below them that’s worse.

I like the idea of universal non means tested benefits. The NHS FFS! free further education makes moral and financial sense as does free broadband.

But to be clear it should not be anywhere near policy of Labour at the mo.

No, because the reasons Labour were unelectable under Corbyn are different, as well you know. That’s a weak, weak post.

Ah right,so electability as long as it’s the right kind of electability. Thank you for your illuminating post.

But the fact remains that the only labour leader to win a general election since 1974 was good old Tone. You don’t like this, I can tell. “Oh if only the electorate could see what I see etc”.

Sigh. I’ve posted on here before on what I think about Blair. It’s rather more nuanced than your pathetic desire to caricature my view.

And someone who is doing a good job of looking composed, on top of his brief and who is not offering anything up to the Tory press to use against him. It is working so far.

Yep, it works well within its limitations.

Ah right,so electability as long as it’s the right kind of electability. Thank you for your illuminating post.

General elections in this country are binary. You win or you lose. Full stop.

Voters don’t get a range of multiple choice answers. You put a cross in a box

That’s gone really, really well for Labour recently.

Yep, it works well within its limitations.

The ‘limitations’ are looking considerably less limiting than the 26 point ‘limitations’ that were in place 6 months ago. You know… the ‘limitations’ that say you will never, ever be anywhere near power, so will achieve the square root of **** all!

General elections in this country are binary. You win or you lose. Full stop.

Yup. So the Johnson strategy is the way forward.

Yes… because everyone who wants to be elected has to act like Boris Johnson.

That’s why he’s spaffed a 26 point poll lead in 6 months.

The country is obviously massively impressed with how that’s going and is looking for Starmer to replicate it

Anyway… how’s the common room looking, comrade? Got your new posters up? Those petitions won’t sign themselves

Yes… because everyone who wants to be elected has to act like Boris Johnson.

It’s touching that you’re so committed to proving my point.

Anyway… how’s the common room looking, comrade? Got your new posters up? Those petitions won’t sign themselves

And again.

You’re seriously suggesting that Keir Starmer is in any way, shape or form behaving like Boris Johnson?

Because to me, and clearly to an awful lot of other people, he is offering a very different and more importantly, Very much more credible proposition.

Oh, that we’d all had that proposition last December, instead of the threadbare alternative

You’ll be happy to provide examples to back up your carefully considered thesis then, obviously. I know you like to go heavy on detail….

You’re seriously suggesting that Keir Starmer is in any way, shape or form behaving like Boris Johnson?

I don’t believe you’re actually dim enough to believe that’s what I suggested.

Not long until PMQs; johnson to be humiliated again, predictably.
If you’re thinking about fact checking johnson, don’t bother; he’s a fact free bag of cells.

I don’t believe you’re actually dim enough to believe that’s what I suggested

Sounds exactly like what You’re suggesting, yes.

Maybe you should experiment with a less Gallic, Cantona-esque method of expression than a quote followed by an ambiguous one sentence ‘pithy’ comment?

Not that I don’t find the Cantona thing very attractive. Seagulls, trawlers and sardines and all that. Love it!

Not long until PMQs

Hoping he has a string of government quotes about testing and track and trace to throw back at Boris. Let’s see him squirm some more

Not long until PMQs; johnson to be humiliated again, predictably

The problem is it doesnt really matter. Its not highly covered and his completely random soundbites are designed so they can be regurgitated in carefully edited form to the faithful showing how he is winning the arguments. Although admittedly he is badly missing the braying morons to provide unthinking support for him. Hence why they want to get everyone back to parliament so it can be covered up. Nothing new for a tory leader though. It was always entertaining watching the days when they decided not to back May.

Sounds exactly like what You’re suggesting, yes.

Oh well, nevermind. Make sure you have cream coloured trousers for PMQs.

Starmer was good on the news today. Short , concise and to the point on the latest Brexit shambles…

I’m paraphrasing, but…

Didn’t he tell us last year that this was all taken care of? Oven ready deal? He’d got Brexit done? What on earth is he doing now?

That was it. Job jobbed.

That’s going to resonate with a lot of people, surely thinking much the same.

There are plenty of people who voted for Brexit who aren’t ERG No Deal loons who can’t be thinking what Johnson is up to now is what they voted for. They voted last year for his ‘oven ready’ deal. Not this farce

Starmer was good on the news today. Short , concise and to the point on the latest Brexit shambles

Maybe he should just be a news reader then?

Lmao.

“The leave/remain argument is over” he said. Oh really. So you think all the remain at all costs PLP lot wasted their time sabotaging their own party.

Yeah so did I.

Could have done with that two years ago?

Seriously what is the point of him? Does he just arrive at the same conclusion as the Tory party but a bit later.

Just imagine if the Tory party we actually competent.

Seriously what is the point of him?

At this point (with 4 years to go until an election), To act with honesty and integrity and to question what the government are up to.

What would you be doing in his place?

Just imagine if the Tory party we actually competent.

Then he’d have to do something different. But you choose a shot to suit the ball that has been bowled, not one that might be bowled if there was a different bowler bowling

Ah right,so electability as long as it’s the right kind of electability. Thank you for your illuminating post.

That has to be one of the silliest posts I’ve ever read.

Electability is absolute. The right kind of electability is the one that gets you elected. 50 odd million data points to collect, that should be enough to satisfy statisticians.

At least daz takes a while to get backed into a corner and post something genuinely ridiculous.

Literally ‘wow’.

“The leave/remain argument is over”

Perfect line. Does not give the tory press any ammo. Leaves room to say “but you are effing it up” and to make policy “close working relationship” with the EU

That has to be one of the silliest posts I’ve ever read.

Only if you think politics is simply about winning power rather than actually changing things for the better. The problem with all the stuff about ‘credible opposition’ is that it really means ‘no opposition’, or more accurately no opposition worthy of the name which will worry those who benefit from our corrupt system. If the labour party fails to challenge a system which enables those at the top to enrich themselves at the cost of everyone else then it has failed in its primary mission.

As I’ve said many times, politics isn’t a game of footy, where the only aim is to win to achieve temporary bragging rights over the opposition. The only people this hollowed out version of politics benefits are the politicians themselves, which goes a long way to explaining why it is how it is. It can be changed though, and the first step is for people to open their eyes and stop allowing themselves to be conned. That’s not going to happen if we all just give up and accept the status quo.

Only if you think politics is simply about winning power rather than actually changing things for the better.

But. You. Can’t. Change. Anything. If. You’re. not. In. Power….

Hiding in the shadows is not showing honesty or integrity in my opinion. I was thinking of this thread when watching KS on the CH4 news last night, I was sure that nobody here would think he came across well 🤔 he appears afraid of himself, scared to upset anybody and everybody and already seems to have forgotten what he actually stands for.
Substance, direction and leadership (honesty and integrity) are all missing and he will not become PM with this strategy, the Labour party need to wake up to this very quickly, 4 years is not a long time at all. Every minute of everyday is relevant in this short marketing campaign and naive to think otherwise.

But. You. Can’t. Change. Anything. If. You’re. not. In. Power….

That’s not actually true, but yes being in power is the best way to change things. Only if you win power on a platform of changing it though. I would support that, but I doubt that’s what Starmer is planning. It’ll be the usual fudge where the system is allowed to carrry on rewarding those at the top for doing very little (see the covid test thread), while throwing a few scraps to the proles. I’ve got very little interest in a labour government which doesn’t want to eliminate the corrruption at the heart of the system.

That’s not actually true, but yes being in power is the best way to change things.

Are you suggesting a revolution or maybe a military coup?

Hiding in the shadows is not showing honesty or integrity in my opinion.

Absolutely agree. I said the same about the previous leader. PMQs is not enough… Starmer is great in parliament, and I still believe he would be great in government… but modern politics takes place elsewhere. We’re years away from an election though, and during a pandemic the charge of “playing politics” can be made to stick… so the caution, although frustrating, might well be wise.