Sir! Keir! Starmer!

I think the only way Scottish Labour can become anything other than their current irrelevance is by coming out either as a pro-independence party or at the very least for some kind of half-way Federal house.

The Unionists currently vote Tory, definitely a feeling that it’s their only option at the moment, whether Scottish Labour break away completely from UKL is another question, and that has to concern Starmer.

To what end – unenactable, but can be countered or stolen.

No, it’s their shit sandwich, now make them eat it.

Great plan Jon, keep your vision a secret, hide in the shadows while the world needs leaders and pinch a win from under their noses👍

No-one said hide. Be in full view, statesmanlike, reliable, answer your interviews properly, and show Johnson up at every turn.

You don’t need to go electioneering yet, you can make yourself electable still.

Scotland will not return to a Labour stronghold, there is not a sufficient ideological difference between them and the SNP to gain traction – the only difference is the Independence question.

Starmer has a difficult decision to make probably after the next election if its a hung parliament he may have to cut a deal with the SNP? After all if the SNP gain more seats/votes from a Democratic point of view its difficult to deny them a further Independence vote.

I think Scotland will leave the Union next time they can vote, i have friends over the border who voted no last time but now would vote yes. If Brexit is bad the SNP will win another vote.

Anecdotally talking to a Northern Irish friend who has always been pro union thinks NI will join Ireland within in 10 years – he has also had enough of Boris.

The problem with all the above and my previous post is that the removal of Scotland and NI would guarantee a permanent Tory gov with little opposition.

Do you think starmer is in full view and statesmanlike though?
If you take those off your list which I would then there isn’t a lot left considering what’s going on outside the window

i actually think Starmers problem is not Starmer, i currently worry that the team behind him is not strong enough and its that and the lack of visibility of that team thats my major concern.

He needs to find strong vocal, passionate people- he needs to remain the calm collected capable leader.

Do you think starmer is in full view and statesmanlike though?

I do, as much as a leader of the opposition ever is.

While I can see the attraction of leaving the UK to Scottish voters, it would not be a done deal that doing so would get them back in to Europe? May still be better than being attached to a Tory run England though.

But I agree, sadly. Ireland will be reunited in some way, and Scotland will vote to leave too. The Tories really have **** up big time

I have noticed that the BBC does not show the bits of PMQs in which Boris was shocking on the following regular news slots? They tend to show the bits when was average? So a lot of people are not seeing Starmers capabilities.

I think the BBC are tiptoeing around the Government at the moment for obvious reasons

the EU would give Scotland membership… just to get a foot hold on the UK mainland again.

To what end – unenactable, but can be countered or stolen.

No, it’s their shit sandwich, now make them eat it.

Yes. Offer up the obvious way out at each point.

You can see that Boris is flailing for attack lines on Starmer – because he’s offered very little up to attack. He’s basically resorted to calling him a remainer, and trying to recycle an old Corbyn attack line about supporting the IRA.

Starmer’s approach is bob-on, IMO. Let the Tories circle the drain of their own making, without offering them a lifeline they can latch onto and crawl up.

There is no election in prospect. Brexit is not going to be stopped. The pandemic will rage through us all winter. Unfortunately, we have to hit bottom with this government as resoundingly as possible before some of the people who facilitated it realise where their best interests actually lie.

Scotland going, a matter of time before Wales and N.I follow. Starmer/Labour need to come up with a bold vision of a federal U.K if the U.K is to survive.

Including P.R and scrapping the Lords

You can see that Boris is flailing for attack lines on Starmer – because he’s offered very little up to attack. He’s basically resorted to calling him a remainer, and trying to recycle an old Corbyn attack line about supporting the IRA.

Starmer’s approach is bob-on, IMO. Let the Tories circle the drain of their own making, without offering them a lifeline they can latch onto and crawl up.

There is no election in prospect. Brexit is not going to be stopped. The pandemic will rage through us all winter. Unfortunately, we have to hit bottom with this government as resoundingly as possible before some of the people who facilitated it realise where their best interests actually lie.

This nails it. If the best thing Johnson can try to smear the former DPP with is “your old boss expressed some pro IRA sentiments” then he has nothing else to go on. Then Starmer just beats him away with his actual track record of prosecuting terrorists and mentions that at the same time Johnson was getting sacked for lying or doing guest appearances on HIGNFY.

Every time there is a mini disaster as part of this utter car crash he should just be very clearly pointing out that it is the result of a conscious choice by Johnson to be an arse, and that other ways were available if Johnson had chosen not to be an arse.

Brexit is such a dismal, doomed, failure that it will, hopefully, destroy this government of liars and incompetents.

What comes after could be worse, though, and that is my real worry. Beware the ‘Strong Leader’ temptation amongst the hard of thinking.

Starmer/Labour need to come up with a bold vision of a federal U.K if the U.K is to survive.

That might appeal to Wales but it’s not going to work with Scotland and NI, I feel. They’ll want back into the EU probably.

the EU would give Scotland membership… just to get a foot hold on the UK mainland again.

The EU don’t want to face this issue as it causes a number of other difficulties. Spain is the big one with Catalan independence. There are numerous other historical fault lines that lie dormant but once you get momentum on these issues the political opportunists start and it can snowball out of hand.

Spain is an EU member.. the UK isn’t… so not the same situation at all. People will catch up with understanding what Brexit means soon.. accession countries, and potential accession countries, are not ruled out by the EU because they used to be part of a bigger (non EU) country or federation of countries… not at all. The EU won’t help NI or Scotland leave the UK, they won’t even encourage it… but once it is done, there is no real reason for them to be refused membership. NI would be eased back in via a fast track not available to any other country. Scotland would probably go for something akin to the compromise the Scottish government proposed after the referendum to make things quicker… it would be messy enough to sort that, never mind full membership… which would take a decade… but the problems there are practical, rather the EU worrying that Scotland used to be part of the UK.

No idea what this has to do with Starmer but I wouldn’t be so sure of Sturgeon rushing to join the EU as an independent nation. She’ll be all powerful if Scotland leaves the UK, I doubt she’ll want to immediately hand all that over to the EU bureaucrats.

I said that they would be likely to seek a compromise of the kind they outlined after the referendum, rather than full membership. But not for the backwards thinking nonsense you mention.

Unfortunately, we have to hit bottom with this government as resoundingly as possible before some of the people who facilitated it realise where their best interests actually lie.

In an ideal world people would recognise their mistakes and correct them, but never underestimate the power of denial with these people, all it may take is another three word catch phrase.

Its going to be a long four years and to defeat the tories with all their allies will take careful preparation.

She’ll be all powerful if Scotland leaves the UK, I doubt she’ll want to immediately hand all that over to the EU bureaucrats.

Sounds a bit brexity.

Sounds a bit brexity.

You deny there are bureaucrats in the EU? Technocrats might have been a better word. It’s not brexity to point out that the EU is a technocratic organisation making decisions from a distance, it’s just plain fact.

No idea what this has to do with Starmer but I wouldn’t be so sure of Sturgeon rushing to join the EU as an independent nation. She’ll be all powerful if Scotland leaves the UK, I doubt she’ll want to immediately hand all that over to the EU bureaucrats.

Because our home grown unelected bureaucrats are so much better! 🤦‍♂️

Because our home grown unelected bureaucrats are so much better!

No they’re not. Whether we like it or not though, the vast majority in this country would rather be ruled by our ‘own’ bureaucrats than foreign ones. You know, people like Starmer, a competent, safe pair of hands from a leafy suburb in the south east.

As for Sturgeon, if you think she’ll easily give up her power straight after getting it you’re in denial of the primary motivation of almost every politician that has ever existed.

Labour & Starmer’s biggest issues at the moment is infighting – they need to pull together, the tories sitting pretty with an 80 seat majority watching the weak opposition fighting among themselves must feel completely untouchable just now.

the vast majority in this country would rather be ruled by our ‘own’ bureaucrats than foreign ones. You know, people like Starmer,

I think we’ve established that some people don’t understand what a bureaucrat is, or what they do.

None of which is actually relevant to a thread on Starmer.

None of which is actually relevant to a thread on Starmer.

Well I did say that earlier 🙂

Bringing it back to him though, I don’t know if he’s planning on saying much about Boris’s latest ruse, but I hope he stays well away. Brexit is poison for labour, and they need to say as little about it as possible.

IScotland would be straight back in the EU and that will be the outcome

May next year they will have a thumping majority and independence will follow quickly

You deny there are bureaucrats in the EU? Technocrats might have been a better word. It’s not brexity to point out that the EU is a technocratic organisation making decisions from a distance, it’s just plain fact.

You made a lot out of one sentence. Is this flight of fancy similar to the one where you thought a backbench MP of 32 years would make a great leader of the opposition and possible PM?

possible PM

I would still maintain that Corbyn would have been a good PM. Imagine the possibilities of someone in the top job who posessed real compassion and didn’t have a single narcissistic impulse? Evidently he wasn’t a good oppostion leader though as he lost the election. Admittedly I have a different idea of what constitutes a good leader than most people, which is mostly someone who doesn’t want to be one.

I would still maintain that Corbyn would have been a good PM. Imagine the possibilities of someone in the top job who posessed real compassion and didn’t have a single narcissistic impulse?

He would’ve made a terrible PM, he couldn’t keep his chosen party together, the idea that he could lead a country is laughable, and as for the idea that he’s not a narcissist, that’s a joke surely? He’s the worst sort of narcissist, he thinks he’s right; about everything, so in his mind there’s no need for compromise. He would be in the same position that Johnson is in now, surrounded by a smaller and smaller cabal of True Believers, put in position because of their support rather than their competence.

Evidently he wasn’t a good oppostion [sic] leader though as he lost the election.

Two…He lost two elections. Against two of the most useless governments this countries probably likely to see for some time

Admittedly I have a different idea of what constitutes a good leader than most people, which is mostly someone who doesn’t want to be one.

Benevolent dictatorship?

Two…He lost two elections. 

He was slandered relentlessly for two elections – I still have people on social media call him traitor whilst beseeching Priti Patel (who was actually sacked for holding unsanctioned meetings with a foreign power) to break international and human rights law further by sinking refugee boats.

Imagine the possibilities of someone in the top job who posessed real compassion and didn’t have a single narcissistic impulse?

All the more reason why he wasn’t any good. Much as I’d like a principled person(or persons) to be in Government, the current political climate dictates against this, and all the compassion and principle in the world isn’t going to change it from the outside, particularly with 1: the tories, 2: FPTP, and 3: the media. The trick here is that you got to to get in through the door before you can effect change.

Those three things amongst others are powerful adversaries, and also its ‘centrists'(for want of a better word’) on this thread who I think are being complacent on believing that the tory party with Boris is going to destroy itself in the eyes of the electorate, when it comes to power, they have a habit of pulling themselves together just long enough to achieve it.

Expanding on Binners Napoleon quote, Napoleon knew when to put the boot in…does Starmer and Labour have that ability? Is he biding his time? Being factually correct is all fine and dandy, but he is going to have to inject a damn sight more passion about his vision for the country to win, I’m not sure he can do this…yet.

Much as I’d like a principled person(or persons) to be in Government, the current political climate dictates against this

Well I guess that’s where I differ with most people. I don’t want to accept that nothing can be done about our corrupt and venal political system. Instead of treating people with principles with suspicion and derision, you’d think we’d be electing them to power. Instead of accepting that there’s nothing we can do to stop narcissists (and no I don’t think Corbyn comes anywhere close to being a narcissist) and megalomaniacs gaining power, we should be voting and organising against them. It’s a weird cognitive dissonance where we teach our kids to be honest, generous and compassionate, yet vote for potential leaders who display the very opposite qualities because ‘that’s the way it is’. I’ll never understand it.

We have a principled person in power in Scotland. Very popular as well

We have a principled person in power in Scotland.

Well aside from my doubts about her motivations on brexit I’d be inclined to agree. She is something of an outlier in UK politics though. On the subject of Corbyn being a narcissist – which I think is pretty preposterous given he’s spent his entire life campaigning for people at the sharp end of society’s failings – I was thinking about which PMs in recent history were ‘decent’ people. John Major was the only one I could think of. Harold Wilson too probably from what I know.

I would still maintain that Corbyn would have been a good PM. Imagine the possibilities of someone in the top job who posessed real compassion and didn’t have a single narcissistic impulse?

Not a narcissist?

Are you serious?

The man who turned the Labour Party into a (non) personality cult where the faithful must constantly affirm their loyalty, and would pile in with threats and abuse to anyone who dare criticise the glorious leader, safely ensconced in his bunker, surrounded by his unquestioning nodding dogs.

We’ve recently found out that by the end, even John MacDonnel had been cast out of the inner circle, deemed insufficiently worshipful of the great man.

Him and Johnson are two cheeks of the same arse. Both were absolutely appalling candidates for PM, completely unfit for the role.

It’s a damning indictment of how totally broken our political system is that a choice between these two incompetent clowns was the best the two-party system could offer up

Literally, would you like your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?

At least we’ve at now got rid of one of them

Not a narcissist?

Are you serious?

Absolutely. As a sense check I asked Mrs Daz who is much cleverer than me (Grammar school education and all sorts) and not at all interested labour party politics and definitely not a massive fan of Corbyn. She pulled a funny face and said no, of course Jeremy Corbyn isn’t a narcissist.

Him and Johnson are two cheeks of the same arse.

I then told her this and she laughed incredulously and said the very concept of comparing Corbyn to Trump was ridiculous. That’s good enough for me. Honestly it really is very silly. By any definition you can find (and I’ve checked  quite a few) Corbyn is not a narcissist. He may be imperfect, stubborn and annoyingly stoic in his views which he’s not changed in 40 years, and probably a little paranoid in the face of non-stop abuse and smearing of his character, but he’s definitely not a narcissist. Go look it up and stop reading the tabloid newspapers.

He may be imperfect, stubborn and annoyingly stoic in his views which he’s not changed in 40 years, and probably a little paranoid in the face of non-stop abuse and smearing of his character, but he’s definitely not a narcissist.

Maybe. But he couldn’t win an election against a preposterous alcoholic who ran into a fridge to avoid questions. That was, um, sort of like…..his job.

He refused to address the single biggest purely political issue in the last forty years because he was at odds with his own party. As a result he was easy to caricature as a bit of a dildo.

Character assassinations of Corbyn are, frankly, irrelevant now.

His job was to be elected. He failed against a ‘novelty’ prime minister who would be more at home in panto. This is his political epitaph.

And here we have the paradox, reason. UK politicos fighting like drowning kittens in a sack, that’s already been chucked into the river, apart from the nom-doms, who are in power, waiting for their January 1st, 2021 paycheck.

After that, they will be gone baby gone.