He’s crap but he’s going to win the next election.

I don’t like to predict anything in politics but I will be surprised if Starmer wins the next general election.

Especially if Liz Truss chooses to do what the last two PMs who were chosen midterm did and calls an early general election.

The Labour lead in the opinion polls is currently surprisingly small, it hasn’t been in double figures for quite some time. With a honeymoon period Truss is very likely to wipe out that Labour lead I would have thought. I am less sure that she would have a working majority though.

Because you can’t be wrong I must be ideologically impure.

FFS what does that even mean? Are you suggesting that people having consistent principles which they don’t break is a bad thing? On the other thread I’m being called a hypocrite for not wanting to pay tax on small building jobs. A good example of ideological ‘flexibility’ if only a small one, and yet here Ernie is being accused of the opposite. What the hell is it that you people want?

Oh. I see. Because you can’t be wrong I must be ideologically impure. All makes sense now.

Don’t get this idealogically pure / impure label.

It’s a an ill-thought out smear that James O’Brien likes to throw around whilst looking like he’s demolishing the Tories.

You people?

Are you suggesting that people having consistent principles which they don’t break is a bad thing?

if ever there was a sentence written in haste.

if ever there was a sentence written in haste.

Not really. He was accusing Ernie of ideological purity as if that’s a bad thing. Agree with him or not, but Ernie is probably the most ideologically consistent poster on here. Call that purity if you like but in my book that’s something to be admired rather than the opposite.

 in my book that’s something to be admired

But it’s for that reason (consistent principles from which they will not deviate) that neither Truss or Sunak would ever consider re-nationalisation of the monopoly industries, you think that’s to be admired?

Politics is compromise. Ideological purity is rarely accommodating of dissenting opinions

Truss and Sunak would consider nationalisation if it benefitted them/ their mates financially.

Yes @ctk you’re probably right. It’s one of the ways that the Tory party has been so successful over the years, they have a very loose set of principles, over which they are very flexible.

And why Communism falls to totalitarianism and dictatorship so easily

This term ‘ideology’ or sometimes ‘idealogy'(!) gets banded about and its meaning is lost. Do people mean ‘ideology as opposed to science’ (as with 60s US sociology) or ideology as a perspective or ideology is something I disagree with? What does ‘ideological purity’ mean? These discussions sadly do get derailed with ‘grown up, cock sucking, cult, idealogy’ word salads, it seems to suggest an inability to understand or stick to arguments and evidence and therefore a resort to contumely.

they have a very loose set of principles, over which they are very flexible.

Whilst the position has moved over time its more the emphasis on which key principles are foremost which has changed. Plus a lot of PR work to pretend other factors are considered when in reality they arent. This is, of course, leaving Johnson to one side who was principleless although its worth remembering when he deviated too far he was shown the door.

I am really not sure where you are going with the communism one. Its a bizarre comparison against the tories. You might as well say the right wing falls to dictatorship easily by looking at those new states emerging at about the same time communism did.
Personally I would rate communism as unworkable for the same reason libertarianism is (unsurprising since the intended outcome is effectively the same) but thats a separate area.

‘ideology as opposed to science’

No space in the discussion for scientism then?

 Its a bizarre comparison against the tories.

It’ wasn’t, it was the most extreme version of Ideological thought that came immediately to mind, you could equally apply it to Fascism

All the sewerage pumped into the sea is surely a vote winner for Labour? Assuming they still want to nationalise water.

It needs massive investment, including new reservoirs. Private water companies are never going to do it.

Re nationalising water is the easiest nationalisation to sell imo.

Blimey another one. What is ‘ideological thought’ and what is its opposite?

most ideologically consistent poster on here. Call that purity if you like but in my book that’s something to be admired rather than the opposite.

Being unable to change course in the light of new evidence is not the mark of an adult. (For the avoidance of doubt because it’s a partial quotation I am not applying this to Ernie).

Our polity has a habit of decrying the “u-turn” when the change in direction is beneficial to the country.

Our polity has a habit of decrying the “u-turn” when the change in direction is beneficial to the country.

Or even when the u-turn is the result of someone honestly admitting that they were previously wrong.
There’s an argument that willingness to u-turn is a positive attribute.

Being unable to change course in the light of new evidence is not the mark of an adult.

I agree. So given the obvious failure of 40 years of neo-liberalism to improve the lives of working people, surely the pragmatic, sensible course of action for the Labour Party is to offer an alternative?

There’s an argument that willingness to u-turn is a positive attribute.

It depends on the reason and approach and generally when it is criticised its not so much the u-turn but the bad decisions leading up to it.

The “float” an idea via the press and then rapidly u-turn when the glaring errors are pointed out is problematic. The u-turn is fine but its that its needed at all which is a problem.
Changing position over time as evidence accumulates (or rapidly in rare cases of sudden evidence emerging) is a good thing.

I am not sure if it always is with the voters. People like to know where they are with someone. And if a politician changes their mind on one thing how can you trust them not to on something else?

I don’t really know ideoligically pure – but you do have to stand for something.

And the point is – last year’s ideologically pure is this years pragmatism.

Why is a sixth former sneered at? When does an adult become a gammon? What does ideological impurity mean? Does pragmatic mean unprincipled? Does a clean sheet reveal a neoliberal agenda? I’m still struggling with forensic and agile ceremonies and haven’t even got on to hard working families. Questions, questions, questions.

And if a politician changes their mind on one thing how can you trust them not to on something else?

For me it would depend on the reasons for that change.
New evidence fine.
Catching up with existing evidence. Somewhat dodgier ground since why did it take that time.
Changing due to bad evidence: Bad sign.
Changing because of public outcry. Definitely a red flag about their decision making
Random changing: Also red flag.

(For the avoidance of doubt because it’s a partial quotation I am not applying this to Ernie).

Thank you. There is a poster on here (I won’t mention his current username but he keeps changing it) who has recently taken to repeatedly referring to me as “ernietruss”.

I’m not entirely sure why but I have to assume that, apart from the fact that he undoubtedly thinks it is hilariously funny, it is because I have expressed the opinion that whilst there is very little to differentiate between Truss and Sunak on balance I probably prefer Truss to be PM as with Sunak there is imo greater possibility of harsh austerity – which would impact on the lives of ordinary working people.

Unable to see issues like that from a pragmatic perspective he no doubt translates that as me being practically a Tory and definitely a Truss fan.

In his world everything is black and white and all Tories should be despised in equal measure – no distinction should ever be made between them, and the interests of ordinary working people, which he also despises anyway, should never come into it.

I think it would be fair to say that he is a centrist. He certainly expresses the same level of political intolerance which other centrists on here tend to express.

Here we go. What’s the plan Keir?

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/19/uk-small-businesses-forced-to-close-by-soaring-energy-bills?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

It’s only a question of time now before someone has to show a big hand.

It’s only a question of time now before someone has to show a big hand.

In a small stakes poker game that no one cares about?
That’s basically what the Labour Party is.. A bunch of simpletons arguing amongst each other and then wondering why the conservatives keep winning elections.

A bunch of simpletons arguing amongst each other and then wondering why the conservatives keep winning elections

Now is the time for either party to go big in their ideas.

But for sure no one’s got the imagination or guts it appears.

But as one economic model starts to collapse something has to be born out of it – currently looking like mad Max 2.

But as one economic model starts to collapse something has to be born out of it

I’m not a follower of economics so I’d be interested to hear if there is anything out there other than the current consensus? Neoliberalism had been a thing for a while elsewhere in the world before the US and Europe embraced it?
Is there an alternative or is the best we can hope for a return to old models ?

It’s time for a charismatic leader to step up.

One that provides a clear vision and hope.

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!

Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 43% (+4)
CON: 28% (-2)
LDM: 11% (-1)

Via @YouGov.
Changes w/ 9-10 Aug.https://t.co/ELEM1XvgvI

— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) August 19, 2022

So recent financial support plans for the country yields good polling results ?

I’m not a follower of economics so I’d be interested to hear if there is anything out there other than the current consensus? Neoliberalism had been a thing for a while elsewhere in the world before the US and Europe embraced it?
Is there an alternative or is the best we can hope for a return to old models ?

You raise a good point and I’ve no idea. I know what I’d like to see.

But worth remembering globalisation has tied things in a very tricky way.

Look back in History for clues as to how things change. Black swan events in succession – got to be a bump in a new direction somewhere. Could be a long gestation period.

Some stuff is going to move into public hands for sure.

So recent financial support plans for the country yields good polling results ?

What financial support plans? Genuine question.

The sudden big Labour lead in today’s YouGov poll, the best for Labour in a while, is undoubtedly connected to Labour’s 6 month price freeze proposal.

It’s not much and it’s not a long term solution but it is better than nothing, which currently is the only other alternative.

It shows that voters are hungry for anything which offers an alternative to the Tory narrative on the cost of living crises. Labour needs to learn from that poll result and get radical. Very likely won’t though.

The Times claim that it is the biggest Labour lead in a YouGov poll in nearly 10 years.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-takes-biggest-poll-lead-in-tenyears-as-cost-of-living-crisis-bites-fdfrkwnms

It will panic the Tories. I expect the leadership contenders to make some bold announcements to counter this sudden new threat from Labour.

A YouGov poll only 3 weeks ago gave Labour just a 1% lead over the Tories.

According to the swingometer those figures in the YouGov poll would give Labour an 18 seat majority.

Labour needs to learn from that poll result and get radical. Very likely won’t though.

Pegging the minimum wage to the cost of living seems pretty radical. Haven’t seen the detail yet but it’s an original idea that the tories won’t be able to go anywhere near. Maybe labour are finally seeing the huge gaping empty net that’s in front of them?

According to the swingometer those figures in the YouGov poll would give Labour an 18 seat majority.

Swingometer?

I get a 126 seat lab majority

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=28&LAB=43&LIB=11&Reform=4&Green=7&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.5&SCOTLAB=24&SCOTLIB=8&SCOTReform=0&SCOTGreen=0&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=46.5&display=AllChanged&regorseat=%28none%29&boundary=2019base

Maybe we are all wrong and Starmer is playing the game well. Not scaring the horses, not committing to anything, not having a personality to build love or hate against, just being safe and professional while the tories get more and more ridiculous.
Sure it won’t be anything like the Labour Party that most of us want but as Starmers goal is to get Labour into power then maybe he is getting it right.

The sudden big Labour lead in today’s YouGov poll, the best for Labour in a while, is undoubtedly connected to Labour’s 6 month price freeze proposal.

It’s not much and it’s not a long term solution but it is better than nothing, which currently is the only other alternative.

Confused? You’ve answered your own question.

That’s what I meant by financial support. Limiting what people pay is financial support.

It will panic the Tories. I expect the leadership contenders to make some bold announcements to counter this sudden new threat from Labour.

My thoughts exactly.

Maybe we are all wrong and Starmer is playing the game well. Not scaring the horses, not committing to anything, not having a personality to build love or hate against, just being safe and professional while the tories get more and more ridiculous

I don’t really think so. Just waiting until society falls apart is not playing things well.

He could’ve stepped up at any point during the last couple of years with ideas.

It just reinforces the point that people want help, and you’ve got to offer substantial ideas.

(I still think it’s a tatty idea to solve anything beyond a few months. But at least it’s something.)