• This topic has 16,645 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 1 day ago by johnx2.
Viewing 40 posts - 15,641 through 15,680 (of 16,646 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • kelvin
    Full Member

    Just waiting until society falls apart is not playing things well.

    The leader of the opposition doesn’t get to set the date of the next general election, the majority government does. That is what we’re all waiting for to get a chance to replace the government that has been making most of us poorer for over a decade, with another crunch period of more people coming to realise that this winter. If in the mean time Labour can shift Tory policy towards helping people, that is a bonus… but that doesn’t change the fact that they have to do this “waiting” (I’d argue that they aren’t doing “just” that, but hey) for now.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Swingometer?

    I get a 126 seat lab majority

    Weird, the one I used only gave an 18 seat majority.

    Maybe the one you used is more accurate but I am surprised that that the difference is so huge.

    This is the one I used. You have to put in the figures yourself.

    http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/swingometer/uk-parliament?election=2019&CON=28&LAB=43&LD=11&GRN=7&BREX=#UnitedKingdom

    BillMC
    Full Member

    I get it, it’s a bit like political lucky bags. Vote for me but what you get will be a surprise.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    When are you voting for your MP? Come a general election I still fully expect the Labour manifesto to be far more transparent and detailed than the Conservative one.

    BillMC
    Full Member

    Yep I guess so, details like ‘security’ and ‘respect’.

    trailmonkey
    Full Member

    I still fully expect the Labour manifesto to be far more transparent and detailed than the Conservative one.

    But it will still be subjectively scrutinised, ridiculed, misinterpreted and re-fed to the public through the prism of Tory Central Office. The public could of course read it themselves for an objective opinion – but they generally won’t bother.

    kerley
    Free Member

    I don’t really think so. Just waiting until society falls apart is not playing things well.

    All depends what game you are playing. The game I was referring to was getting Labour into power and we will see if it works or not in a few years.

    It is also not an actual game where each player gets a go, Starmer doesn’t get a go until he wins the election so has very little control over anything the tories are doing other than to vote against them.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Yep I guess so, details like ‘security’ and ‘respect’.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the cover says something overly abstract like that. You’re one of the few who’ll read beyond that though, so I expect you’ll have a pretty good idea at that point what the policies are, and what the priorities are, when it comes to voting at the next general election (whenever that may be). The contrast with the Tory manifesto is likely to be stark (it won’t be the same inside with a different coloured cover, even if that is the noise that disaffected left wing people and other opposition parties will inevitable make about it).

    But it will still be subjectively scrutinised, ridiculed, misinterpreted and re-fed to the public through the prism of Tory Central Office. The public could of course read it themselves for an objective opinion – but they generally won’t bother.

    True. And that’s why it is likely to be so detailed. Expect additional documents detailing the costing as well, as in the 2017 general election. The Tories don’t have to do this because come an election they’ll have an awful lot of the media either onside, or trying to be balanced.

    rone
    Full Member

    It is also not an actual game where each player gets a go, Starmer doesn’t get a go until he wins the election so has very little control over anything the tories are doing other than to vote against them

    For sure.

    But I’ve noticed especially in these times provocation can be a powerful tool even when you’re not in power.

    Especially if you’re on side with the public and the government isn’t.

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    I still think it’s a tatty idea to solve anything beyond a few months. But at least it’s something.

    It’s a start to give some breathing space whilst the rest of the ducks are aligned. (He said optimistically).

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    But I’ve noticed especially in these times provocation can be a powerful tool even when you’re not in power.

    Especially if you’re on side with the public and the government isn’t.

    Well, it worked for nigel farridge. Gotta give him credit for that.

    BillMC
    Full Member

    I seem to remember hearing that the job of the opposition was to oppose. Maybe I got that completely wrong.

    ctk
    Full Member

    The energy crisis, the sewerage in the sea, PPE scandal etc etc should be enough to bring this govt down come election time.

    If the Tories get in again after all that…

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    should be enough to bring this govt down come election time.

    But only if voters are convinced that the alternative politicians on offer would do a better job. Otherwise what would be the point of replacing the existing ones?

    Or are suggesting that nothing could possibly be worse than the current situation right now?

    Edit: Do you think it’s time for a D:Ream number and a bit of foot tapping by Peter Mandelson?

    kerley
    Free Member

    I seem to remember hearing that the job of the opposition was to oppose. Maybe I got that completely wrong.

    Not that simple. If opposing just leaves you with lots of ammunition for media and tories to spin and smear with it doesn’t turn out well in long run (with goal of winning election)

    In other words, you have to pick your battles. Starmer is clearly taking it to far though and nobody knows what he stands for but keeping nose clean while Truss digs herself into holes may work.

    rone
    Full Member

    Not that simple. If opposing just leaves you with lots of ammunition for media and tories to spin and smear with it doesn’t turn out well in long run (with goal of winning election)

    Well of course it’s layered.

    But it’s a simple fact that Starmer being fresh on the job barely challenged the Tories and put no better ideas forward during covid – leading to the Tories doing what the hell they wanted.

    (In fact the furlough concept was put out by John McDonnell!)

    Why do you think the Tories are so out of control?

    I know he can’t do very well in blocking policy but the lack of voice during 20-21 was unforgivable.

    “Let’s not play politics.”

    rone
    Full Member

    The energy crisis, the sewerage in the sea, PPE scandal etc etc should be enough to bring this govt down come election time.

    If the Tories get in again after all that

    My father, just after the 2019 election pointed out that the country needs four more years of the Conservatives to really see how bad things are going to get.

    Currently very little is anything to do with Starmer but because of how the Tories have handled the country.

    Though I’m still not convinced they won’t get back in! I mean poll bumps are one thing but the Tories die hard.

    And I still want Starmer gone. I’m not one for getting excited about getting rid of the Tories – they behave how I expect them to. And like many have only known a Labour government for a few years.

    I want an inspiring government, and it looks like I won’t see that in my lifetime.

    dazh
    Full Member

    “Let’s not play politics.”

    Funny that now they are doing some politics, as in proposing some real policies, and declaring their position on something they’re now reaping the benefits. This stuff isn’t difficult, and up against opponents who seem to be in cloud cuckoo land (GPs writing prescriptions for help with paying bills! WTAF???) it should be easier than ever.

    rone
    Full Member

    Funny that now they are doing some politics, as in proposing some real policies, and declaring their position on something they’re now reaping the benefits.

    I know! It’s hardly a puzzle is it?

    We will have to see how consistently this plays out.

    Next move will surely be Truss and I’m sure like a drunk at the controls of the space shuttle it will be something we can’t ignore one way or another.

    I’m thinking stealth nationalisation – with some more furlough type intervention or Like the GP thing offer something but make it hard to get.

    Could easily be wrong though.

    If the polls lean this hard against them then they will act. Although another most recent poll is around 10pts ahead.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Opinium is 8%, which is nevertheless an impressive boost for Labour as Opinium polls don’t tend to favour Labour as much as YouGov.

    Opinium Voting Intention: 17th August 2022

    It is hard not to come to the conclusion that Labour’s intervention by offering a clear proposal to rising energy bills isn’t a significant factor.

    It is not a particularly inspiring proposal – freeze prices this winter at a level which is 54% higher than last winter and no firm commitment for next winter. But it is something and people are getting worried and desperate.

    Hence the Labour boost in the polls and the Tories panic counterproposal of shifting responsibility onto GPs and clogging their surgeries with non-medical cases.

    rone
    Full Member

    It might just be a forensic clue that progressive polices could be a winner.

    kerley
    Free Member

    It is hard not to come to the conclusion that Labour’s intervention by offering a clear proposal to rising energy bills isn’t a significant factor.

    It also shows how easily people can be swayed. One policy to save people a one or two thousand quid and done, we’ll vote for that party.
    Or maybe it shows why being a party leader with a clean history (as far as media and slurring goes) can wait for something that can sway the voters and the voters won’t have in the back their mind he is a bad guy (Corbyn) so could give him a chance.

    rone
    Full Member

    It also shows how easily people can be swayed. One policy to save people a one or two thousand quid and done, we’ll vote for that party.

    So much this.

    It also shows in real terms how poor people are.

    At this point I don’t think people care whether it’s Starmer or Truss. Show me the money. To bare this out let’s see when and if Trusst fund comes up with something.

    All will be revealed in a few weeks.

    (I’m utterly sick of idiotic commentators on the radio debating the national debt in terms of the fiscal capacity of the UK government with regard to energy support packages. Every single one of them is using it to attack or defend Truss or Sunak. That shows how you can completely manipulate an ignorant electorate.)

    ctk
    Full Member

    I wonder if it could be as simple as Boris going giving Labour a boost? I know its hard to believe but he was popular with a lot of voters!

    rone
    Full Member

    There’s that but there’s also discussion unbelievably of the Tories having sellers remorse with him going!

    Trouble is British standards are dumbed down so much we simply expect good crumbs rather than the main meal.

    I think that’s a side effect of shoddy capitalism. Make stuff to a bare minimum quality. Charge a lot for it.

    It skews your value in every walk of life. We forget there’s a cost to actually produce something decent. A product of low wages, cheapness and short term mentally. Not to mention an economy built around cheap imports.

    And now we have inflation as a product of that situation.

    Look at the bonkers 50 year mortgages! They will be seem as a good thing to struggling buyers. They’re clearly a death sentence financially and make no sense other than to leverage the hell out of a mortgage.

    nickc
    Full Member

    I know its hard to believe but he was popular with a lot of voters!

    I think if you’ve ever canvassed for a party, you get to see a wide selection of the public, and their views I used to canvass in the sort of town where putting a blue rosette on a fly blown donkey would return a Tory, our labour candidate could’ve offered them their weight in gold, and it would’ve made no difference to their voting intentions.

    rone
    Full Member

    Okay here is the problem with delivering a fully costed approach:

    People find flaws.

    rone
    Full Member

    Looking at the first page of the thread one member who doesn’t like posting about Starmer in the PM thread – has about 6 comprehensive posts of enthusiasm for Starmer on the first page, and anti-left noise.

    I do wonder why he doesn’t have the same enthusiasm these days?

    rone
    Full Member

    I’ve no love for the IFS but if you use them to make your case in other ‘pay-for’ situations expect it to bite you back.

    Fully funded.

    Fiscal prudence.

    Doesn’t work.

    And is not the truth of government spending – bites you on the backside.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    bites you on the backside.

    Will it though? There is little doubt that Labour actually offering a proposal which distinguishs it from the Tories, over a matter which greatly concerns voters, has given them a boost in the polls.

    How well it has been costed is probably quite unimportant imo. I do expect the sudden double digit Labour lead not to last indefinitely (the latest poll already has the lead back in single digits) but only because one solitary and relatively small proposal isn’t going to have a profound and lasting effect, not because it was poorly costed.

    For Labour to be seen as a credible alternative to the Tories it has to offer alternative policies, as the recent boost in the polls suggest.

    rone
    Full Member

    Will it though? There is little doubt that Labour actually offering a proposal which distinguishs it from the Tories, over a matter which greatly concerns voters, has given them a boost in the polls

    It’s already bit them on the arse by the fact the cock-up up is now doing the rounds. Which will give the right all the ammunition they need. I mean, a few weeks ago Labour were attacking Truss for unfunded tax cuts.

    And whilst we analyse polls on a weekly basis for forum therapy – and it doesn’t give the bigger picture I do notice Labour have dropped back on R&W.

    Anyway, full-costed causes scrutiny that becomes a negative issue which we know is irrelevant but Labour have put too much emphasis on this.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Peter Mandelson calls on Labour to ‘redouble’ its private donation efforts

    The party grandee, and New Labour architect, told City A.M. that Sir Keir Starmer “cannot allow himself or the party” to become beholden to “hard-left trade unions” that “are going to try and use their financial muscle to get policy positions they want from Labour”.

    How fitting that Sir Keir Starmer should choose to give an interview to a newspaper so confused that it either doesn’t understand what “premiership” means in a political context, or thinks that Jeremy Corbyn is a former prime minister.

    Labour’s largest Union backer Unite has threatened to completely withdraw its funding in the wake of Starmer’s efforts to moderate the party after Jeremy Corbyn’s premiership.

    Quality journalism.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Sorry that was suppose to refer to Peter Mandelson giving an interview – not Starmer! It turns out that it’s also me that is confused! Although not quite so confused as to not understand what ‘premiership’ means. And luckily for City A.M. readers I don’t write for a business newspaper.

    rone
    Full Member

    Dozy Reeves wants to know where the money is going to come from.

    FFS.

    Like clockwork.

    It’s almost like the poor don’t matter to Labour.

    Centrist shifting the debate away from the crisis of not being able to afford bills to how a currency issuing government can afford its bills

    Useless.

    argee
    Full Member

    What’s she up to trying to hold the government to account 😡

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Dozy Reeves wants to know where the money is going to come from.

    To be fair she doesn’t have much of a choice. Having decided to go down the road of fiscal prudence what else could she say?

    You can’t expect her to do a U-turn at the first hurdle.

    rone
    Full Member

    To be fair she doesn’t have much of a choice. Having decided to go down the road of fiscal prudence what else could she say

    She could tell the truth about government spending doesn’t rely on being fully costed? And it’s more important as Martin Lewis said to find a solution.

    Labour put themselves in this position.

    rone
    Full Member

    What’s she up to trying to hold the government to account 😡

    It’s barrier to giving support to the people Labour are supposed to help.

    They can afford it. Repeat.

    rone
    Full Member

    There’s no point helping those in need if your first position is that the government needs to fully cost itself and apply scrutiny.

    The first position is to solve a problem.

Viewing 40 posts - 15,641 through 15,680 (of 16,646 total)

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