You lot don’t even see what you do, do you?

You lot don’t even see what you do, do you?

????

Do you mean posting on a forum thread? Is that not what we’re supposed to do?

This just turns the thread into repeated polar ‘argument’ rather than any willingness to consider other relevant and pertinent matters e.g. swing is an alternative voting measure to share.

Aside from the swing in 2017 was larger than this one.
Leaving that aside its skipping over the swings for Labour havent been positive ones but instead absolute collapses in the tory vote. Which doesnt bode well if the tories do depose Johnson and pretend to be new brooms yet again.
The Libdems are actually getting significant shifts but Labour currently have just been doing less worse than the tories.

This thread is an echo chamber every time I check in

Out of curiosity do you avoid the Johnson and brexit ones? Perhaps we need to write a binners bot to post about six formers and so on?

You lot don’t even see what you do, do you?

What I do see is that the “centrist” position is what is obstructing the fight against the Tory agenda.

It is certainly not the solution and it is in fact part of the problem as it is actively helping the Tories by re-enforcing their false claim that there is no alternative.

Unless of course you don’t have an actual problem with the Tory agenda and the only issue which concerns you is personalities.

In which case you should probably be considering replacing charisma-free Starmer with someone less “boring”.

But at the last election there was an alternative, yes? Yet you choose not to vote for Labour. No leader of the Labour party will ever be good enough for you.

No leader of the Labour party will ever be good enough for you.

Thank you for telling me how I think.

Harold Wilson was an excellent Labour Leader, relatively speaking. His government introduced a multitude of legalisation which changed the lives of ordinary working people in a very real and tangible way. Including outlawing racial discrimination, decriminalising homosexualty, equal pay, open university, health and safety at work, the end of state executions, etc. And he did all that with tiny parliamentary majorities whilst keeping the UK out of a horrific Asian war.

I cannot think of any reason why working men and women wouldn’t have voted Labour when Wilson was leader. Or Callaghan, or Foot, or Kinnock, or Smith.

His government introduced a multitude of legalisation which changed the lives of ordinary working people in a very real and tangible way.

Amazing what a Labour government can do.

I cannot think of any reason why working men and women wouldn’t have voted Labour when Wilson was leader.

Why did you not vote for Labour at the last general election?

I think Labour should have changed leader before that election, but I still voted Labour to try and unseat the Conservative government. I think Labour should change leader before the next election, but will still vote for Labour if they do not. So who’s enabling this Conservative government? Those willing to vote to try and stop them, or those that won’t?

Nothing amazing about it, it is exactly what you would expect from a Labour government.

And the reason that I have extensively canvassed for the Labour Party in the past.

It was, and should be, the mass party of organised working people.

Remember when all the remainers on here were saying they weren’t going to vote labour in 2019 because they refused to be part of a pro-brexit majority? I clearly recall being called a nazi sympathiser for saying labour (and remainers in general) should accept the referendum result. Yet now those of us who don’t want to vote labour (I really, really don’t*) on account of Starmer’s acquiesance to the right wing establishment are called ‘tory enablers’ by many of the same people who took exactly the same stance on brexit. What’s the difference?

*but I will, for no other reason than our local candidate massively deserves it.

*but I will, for no other reason than our local candidate massively deserves it.

Good.

Well it’s going to be a long slog to power if it relies on the personal appeal of individual candidates rather than the appeal of the party nationally.

Why didn’t you vote for Labour at the last general election? I mean, millions didn’t, you’re far from alone… but if you weren’t prepared to vote for them then, and you’re not now, I’m intrigued as to what would make a vote for Labour appealing to you? It looks an awful lot whatever they are do they doing the wrong thing, and however they do it they’re going about it the wrong way. You’re not just pointing out failings (of which there are many) but jumping on absolutely anything Starmer does as a negative (the most recent example being to talk up a very good by-election result too much in your opinion… and not using your chosen metrics… making him a “liar”).

Remember when all the remainers on here were saying

Don’t generalise or make stuff up. Remainers were appalled at Labour’s initially vague stance and then agahst as the position was made clear. As a remainer I still voted labour. That went well. Though at least we retained our excellent local MP.

I was never going to accept the Brexit referendum result gave a mandate for such an act of self harm but I’ve had to accept we’ve had to deal with it. (And believe me it’s a f’ing pita)

I’m accepting KS is turning out to be not the leader I want him to be but in a world of shit sandwiches, one of which I have to eat, I’ll take the smaller of the two thanks.

Thank you for telling me how I think.

Is that similar to the way you label people centrist without knowing anything about them?

Remember when all the remainers on here were saying they weren’t going to vote labour in 2019 because they refused to be part of a pro-brexit majority?

Nope.

Yeah political amnesia is a fairly widespread phenomena.

I clearly remember how in the local elections 5 years ago punters were coming on here proudly announcing how they hadn’t voted Labour to “teach them a lesson” for not supporting a second referendum.

Corbyn did eventually capitulate before the last general election, with devastating consequences, as he managed the remarkable feat of pissing off both leavers and remainers.

Yet now those of us who don’t want to vote labour (I really, really don’t*) on account of Starmer’s acquiesance to the right wing establishment are called ‘tory enablers’ by many of the same people who took exactly the same stance on brexit. What’s the difference?

What right wing acquiescence, all I’ve seen is either sticking with soft left policies or not being drawn into a position?

I’ll add a +1 for wanting to know what the kier starmer shade bots actually need to persuade them to vote labour.

Left leaning policies had a chance at the last 2 elections. They were rejected both times (not by me, I was all for it). Clearly there’s not a majority for it within our voting system. So moving back to the centre is inevitable.

The MSM is too powerful and in the hands of the right so any Labour leader is **** from the start imo. “Boring” is better than “terrorist sympathiser” at least.

Personally I’d like to see a PR vote policy because I think it’s the only way we’ll ever escape the torys

The past couple of weeks has very much clarified SKS’s political outlook. His instructions to not support industrial action for those working people trying to get by and survive inflationary wage erosion has quite clearly demonstrated he is not a soft left politician, but a soft right. He is more interested in telling the few in the city of London that their profits and greed will be safe under his leadership, than he is telling the working population that he has their backs in the middle of a cost of living crisis.

all I’ve seen is either sticking with soft left policies or not being drawn into a position?

In yesterday’s article which Starmer himself wrote he claims to occupy “the centre ground”.

There is no mention of left policies, soft or otherwise.

The Labour Party is not currently a left-wing party. And with the centrists consolidating their power and grip on the party there is no evidence that it is likely to become one any time soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/26/labour-has-now-claimed-the-centre-ground-and-has-shown-it-can-win

Remember when all the remainers on here were saying they weren’t going to vote labour in 2019 because they refused to be part of a pro-brexit majority? I clearly recall being called a nazi sympathiser for saying labour (and remainers in general) should accept the referendum result.

I think that was just me. Although I don’t remember calling anyone a nazi sympathiser.

To be honest, you should probably remember that this is all academic for me since I’m an SNP supporter so I can afford to have ‘red lines’ and ‘principles’ given I don’t have to vote for any unionist party.

If I lived in England then to be brutally honest I would probably vote for my local Labour candidate if that was the most likely route to blocking the Tory candidate. **** it, I might even vote lib-dem if it would block a Tory.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I’m glad you’ve all caught up with me and stopped supporting KS because he keeps u-turning on campaign promises.

It’s just, for next time, if a candidate starts doing u-turns on policies you don’t agree with anyway, don’t just assume he’s not going to start doing u-turns on the policies you do like.

rsl1

Left leaning policies had a chance at the last 2 elections. They were rejected both times (not by me, I was all for it). Clearly there’s not a majority for it within our voting system.

Both times they were rejected mostly for the leader and for the presentation/delivery, rather than the policies. I mean, even Miliband wasn’t sure what his policies were.

Left leaning policies are the only way out of decades of disintegration.

That bit is just not rocket science.

Centrists don’t really have a position as such, just a buffer between the right leaning status-quo and mild social consolation prizes.

If the right can win elections with a shit scrapbook of a decaying, failed pro-market dumping ground policies then the left (without the Brexit vote baggage) sure as hell ought to be able to win with bold and necessary progressive ideas for the masses.

The only difference is lack of conviction, ideas and drive from the cowardly and frankly lazy – current version of the Labour party hell-bent on not solving any of the UKs problems.

And let’s not start with – ‘you’ve got to get elected first.’ as a typical Centrist argument. Libdems are either in power with the Tories or booted out come election time

If the Tories can get elected with nothing to offer then Labour need to up their game.

The past couple of weeks has very much clarified SKS’s political outlook. His instructions to not support industrial action for those working people trying to get by and survive inflationary wage erosion has quite clearly demonstrated he is not a soft left politician, but a soft right. He is more interested in telling the few in the city of London that their profits and greed will be safe under his leadership, than he is telling the working population that he has their backs in the middle of a cost of living crisis.

Labour have pushed for negotiations to be continued, especially in the current climate, and have in the main blamed government for negotiation breakdowns, that’s a long way from right wing views on this issue.

I’ve not heard him say anything to the city about labour protecting their capitalism?

There’s still plenty of time for labour to push more, this will be a summer of strikes.

Labour have pushed for negotiations to be continued, especially in the current climate, and have in the main blamed government for negotiation breakdowns, that’s a long way from right wing views on this issue.

SKS told his MP’s not to support the pickets, he was going to punish those who ignored him until he realised that they had public support.
Pushing unions to negotiate with companies negotiating in bad faith is just empty rhetoric and does not support working people.

I’ve not heard him say anything to the city about labour protecting their capitalism?

The actions above are the message, he doesn’t always need to write an opinion piece in the telegraph to let them know which side he is on.

bold and necessary progressive ideas for the masses

As someone who has always been to the left of Labour, I have to ask myself if the masses will support that. The signs are that they will not. Is it possible to persuade the public to support the policy platform of 2017, given the right leader, absolutely. 2019? I don’t believe so. I’d like to be proven wrong one day, but I don’t think that day is the next General Election. Does that make me a centrist, or just someone who lives in England who listens to other people?

All I’m seeing currently is the same hatred of the labour party for ‘not being left enough’, as the same absurd lib dem voters that absatined after the tory coalition ‘sellout’.

To me it just shows a total lack of undersanding of how the political machine works in the UK.

Sure don’t vote labour or lib dem, but in doing that you may as well vote tory. Go you!

I’m probably more aligned to lib dem rather than labour, but I’ll vote labour without a second thought, If, I think that’s the best way to get the conservatives out of power.

We have a common enemy as people here, so officially or unoficcialy we need to work together to change the direction of the political tide.

I’m probably more aligned to lib dem rather than labour, but I’ll vote labour without a second thought, If, I think that’s the best way to get the conservatives out of power.

I would reciprocate that if I lived in a Tory/LibDem marginal. Punishing the LibDems for the coalition gave us more Conservative MPs. Punishing Labour for moving their policies “right” from 2019 will do the same. Tactical voting is key. Or we’ll keep getting majority Tory governments based on a minority of support.

We have a common enemy as people here, so officially or unoficcialy we need to work together to change the direction of the political tide.

What direction is that?

What direction is that?

Away from the right?

What direction is that?

Hatred, poverty, confusion and disillusion with the tories, or something more progressive.

Away from the right?

How?

How

By voting Labour, Lib Dems SNP or Green maybe?

Still no answers I see, just arguing that I’m wrong. Wasn’t that what you don’t like about starmer?

We have a common enemy as people here

This is the problem with labour, they are least two factions, center left and far left, the far left hate starmer and will abstain, rather than vote lib dem, hence handing votes to the tories.

JHFC

The thing is it’s usually the centrists who are causing the division. It was when Corbyn was in power, it is now.

All I’m seeing currently is the same hatred of the labour party for ‘not being left enough’, as the same absurd lib dem voters that absatined after the tory coalition ‘sellout’.

Not left enough? Starmer doesn’t even claim that Labour is left-wing. He proudly announced yesterday that Labour was now an established centre party.

And the LibDems did indeed sellout which is precisely why 12 years later their support is still half of what it was before the sellout.

Nick Clegg and the LibDems enabled a Tory government, they enabled and enthusiastically supported austerity, with all its devastating consequences. They could have joined a grand anti-Tory coalition government but because they objected so strongly to Gordon Brown being PM they decided to cosy up with the Tories instead.

I find it hugely reassuring that so many of their former supporters haven’t forgotten that.

All I’m seeing currently is the same hatred of the labour party

It’s not hatred of the party, just massive disappointment and anger with a small number of people at the top of the party, who are willing to abandon the party’s mission and principles when it isn’t necessary.

Labour can win power with a progressive agenda which helps working people. The current leadership don’t want to do that, they just want the power. And f*** knows why when they don’t seem to want to do anything with it.

I’m not going to argue against the above few points, because that would be a waste of time.

But they do illustrate quite nicely why the Conservatives might well win the next gerneral election, whenever that comes.