• This topic has 14,772 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 21 hours ago by rone.
Viewing 40 posts - 14,681 through 14,720 (of 14,773 total)
  • Sir! Keir! Starmer!
  • Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    A good compilation Bill, thanks, but the Anti-Apartheid bit is self important fantasy. Plenty of others, including in Labour, campaigned far more effectively, he wasn’t some kind of lone voice. Hubris.

    No idea about the Starmer/Assange stuff. I don’t mean that I’m unsure about the truthfulness, I just don’t understand the relevance. Legal advice to the Swedes about interviewing here rather than in their own jurisdiction. The article makes that sound political, it might well have just been a legal responsibility of his role at the time. Anyway, Corbyn’s hand waving, saying he knew nothing about a key member of his team… perhaps he should have? As the leader?

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Full Member

    Bit a digression but in all of the anti-NF campaigns in the 70s and 80s the LP nor the CP were quite sectarian and generally never to be seen. Anti-apartheid was a bit more on the CP agenda (long way away) but if you look at photo images of that period you see the ANL, IS/SWP, IMG, RAR and the people who were killed were from those organisations (Gately IMG, Peach SWP).
    In the 80s I was living in Highbury North and although then not an LP member I used to go to the Red Rose club and see Corbyn around and what they were doing. I wouldn’t challenge anything he said in that article and he’s certainly not someone I would accuse of hubris, he makes very little use of the first personal pronoun.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    “Julian Assange, what’s his crime?” Corbyn asks, then adds again with emphasis, “What is his crime?”

    His crime* is that after Chelsea Manning had passed him some information (this is OK) Instead of trying to get her to give him more (the work of a journalist) He persuaded her to give him what she thought was a code to break password encryption so that he could gain entry into the Pentagon systems himself (this is several crimes) and to be honest if he was an actual journalist he’d have know that.

    Edit: sorry, the crime he’s accused of

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    Why the hell are we talking about Corbyn in here?

    Teddies out.

    😂

    Premier Icon ctk
    Full Member

    if he was an actual journalist he’d have know that.

    Throw away the key! 🤦

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Full Member

    Nick, study that quote, it might help you with the use of the apostrophe. Always like to be helpful.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    I know what he meant BillMC, Either way, he’s either being polemic, or ignorant. In a senior politician neither is attractive.

    Mleh the whole interview is self congratulatory a **** piece. Senior establishment figure complains that rest of establishment didn’t like him.

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Full Member

    Good gob, you have an impressively wild imagination. Show us some evidence of your claim rather than just an assertion.

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Full Member

    Come on, still waiting. Member of the establishment? Ignorant? Come on, show us how you make your mind up about people who may happen to support the oppressed, including Palestinians.

    Premier Icon argee
    Full Member

    Reading the article it looks like Lammy isn’t supporting the demands, instead pointing back to negotiations that should be done to reach agreement, it reads more like Sharon Graham at Unite using this to get some press for this issue, basically the response i’d expect from both the union (get their workers what they can) and Lammy (negotiations between union and BA to find a solution).

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    Yeah Lammy isn’t supporting the airline workers because he claims that they should be “negotiating”, which is of course the bog standard Tory position when there is a dispute – the unions should negotiate, even when the employers have absolutely no intention of negotiating.

    Lammy wants the Labour Party to be seen as a serious party of government. And serious parties of government don’t have the time to worry about piddling trivial matters such as the wages of ordinary working people, apparently.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    Lammy wants the Labour Party to be seen as a serious party of government. And serious parties of government don’t have the time to worry about piddling trivial matters such as the wages of ordinary working people, apparently.

    Well we can’t have Labour defending the reason for its existence, now can we.

    They really have nothing in their locker beyond not being Boris. It’s truly pathetic.

    Premier Icon gauss1777
    Free Member

    Time for Starmer to go. Enough is enough.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    The crazy thing is that BA workers are only asking for the 10% covid pay cut to be reversed rather than an actual raise. So it would appear that in a cost of living crisis it’s now the position of the Labour Party that people should be paid less than they were a couple of years ago. If that’s what they mean by ‘serious party of government’ then that can stick it.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    Lammy can additionally sod off – I get my bookwork in on time whereas he’s currently being investigated for late entries over financial ‘interests’.

    Starmer too also up for potential breaches with declarations.

    I love how the grown-ups have these sort of ‘administrative’ errors being investigated by the PSC.

    Something and nothing I’m sure.

    Well we can’t have Labour defending the reason for its existence, now can we.

    It’s positively bat-shit insane to not be defending these workers unless you are a member of the Tory party.

    Constantly walking this cowardly media tight rope will eventually break Starmer as public mood swings strongly against the COLC, leaving him stuck on Starmer island.

    What next – negotiations between the poor and food banks?

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    I can’t understand this, the third sentence in this article written by Starmer in today’s Observer appears to be a blatant lie**.

    the guardian: labour has now claimed the centre ground – and has shown it can win.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/26/labour-has-now-claimed-the-centre-ground-and-has-shown-it-can-win

    “It was the best we have had in the constituency”

    That is simply untrue. In fact you don’t need to go very far back to discover that it is untrue. In 2017 Labour’s share of the vote on Wakefield was greater than it was last Thursday.

    And in 2017 Labour didn’t win the general election. So I don’t understand how getting a smaller share of the vote in Wakefield last week than it got when Labour failed to win a general election proves that Labour is on course to win the next general election.

    And it is all the more startling as you would expect Labour to pick up the protest votes in Wakefield, and not least because the Tories have a 70 plus majority so even committed Tories could risk voting Labour without fear of a Labour government.

    Support for the Tories dropped by 17% in Wakefield last Thursday, the Labour vote increased by less than half of that.

    Labour needs to do much better than it did in Wakefield last Thursday if it is to win the next general election.

    And also in today’s Observer an Opinium poll gives Labour just a 3% lead over the Tories which bearing in mind the shit the Tories have created for themselves is really quite extraordinary.

    ** I say “appears” to be a blatant lie because I simply cannot believe that he would tell such a barefaced lie. I kept rereading it thinking that I must have misunderstood something.

    I know Starmer wants to challenge Johnson on everything but surely not also on who is the biggest liar?

    Edit: Btw I couldn’t detect one single policy in that article written by Starmer, if someone sees one that I might have missed I would be grateful if it was pointed out.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    That article despite being well written is utter jazz.

    They want to capture the centre ground, keep taxes and inflation low and yet somehow make great changes to society? Break mediocrity apparently – I mean that’s what Labour ought to do but you simply can’t do it without radical left-wing policies.

    None of which will ever exist in Starmer Island.

    He’s just a better quality of liar.

    (I think the Tories are riding out inflation and preying for things to correct themselves. If we see a drop in inflation next month or the price of petrol they will celebrate this as drivers of the economy.)

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    Joining a picket line is so 2018.

    Premier Icon chestrockwell
    Full Member

    I’m still willing to give Starmer and his crew a chance but am not comfortable with what Lammy says above. Asking for the 10% you had taken off you should be the starting point in negotiations!

    As a Fire Fighter I’m getting flashbacks to the fun we had with Blair in 2002/3…..

    Premier Icon ctk
    Full Member

    I think the Tories are riding out inflation and preying for things to correct themselves. If we see a drop in inflation next month or the price of petrol they will celebrate this as drivers of the economy

    If there is an uptick in the economy before the GE Starmer and co are ****.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    If there is an uptick in the economy before the GE Starmer and co are ****.

    Oh for sure but there’s a chance inflation will drop with GDP too. Lots of bizarre things could happen.

    Tricky to see what things will be like in the next 12 months.

    I mean if the war comes to a halt – that will be seen as the start of something better clearly.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    Tricky to see what things will be like in the next 12 months.

    A massive recession is pretty much nailed on. The question is what Johnson will do about it? Given previous form he’ll probably get Sunak to open the cookie jar again (probably via a big cut in income tax) and again expose Labour’s lack of creativity and ambition on economic matters. Johnson is no fiscal conservative. He knows where the printing presses are and is prepared to use them if it makes him more popular.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    “It was the best we have had in the constituency”

    That is simply untrue.

    Labour beat the Conservatives by 4.7 percentage points in 2017, and by 17.9 percentage points last week.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    A massive recession is pretty much nailed in.

    Utterly.

    And possibly deflation.

    But they’re holding off on tax cuts to the last minute (which is the same as spending into the economy in deficit terms.)

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    Labour beat the Conservatives by 4.7 percentage points in 2017, and by 17.9 percentage points last week.

    What you are saying is that last week in Wakefield the Tories did worse than they did in 2017.

    That is clearly not the same as saying that Labour did better – Labour’s share of the vote was lower in Wakefield last week than it was on 2017.

    Even if you look at the size of Labour’s majority last week in Wakefield it was less than Labour achieved in the 2001 general election.

    The claim by Starmer that last Thursday’s result in Wakefield “It was the best we have had in the constituency” is a lie, he is lying, he is a liar, as Mick Lynch would say.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Is a narrow win better than winning by 17.9 percentage points? Arguable. I wouldn’t call you a “liar” if you said that the 2017 result was “better” than last week’s result, but I wouldn’t agree with you either.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    “the best we have had in the constituency”

    Is a lie. Labour have done much better in the past in Wakefield than they did last Thursday.

    The fact that despite the Tory vote collapsing in Wakefield last Thursday and yet Labour still got a smaller share of the vote than they did 5 years ago, proves Starmer’s critics correct when they say that Labour is failing to convince people that they are a credible alternative.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    I’m happy to consider it their best result in the seat. And a much needed one. Showing they can win these kinds of seats back off the Conservatives is key to changing the make up of our parliament at the next election. To win it by such a big margin is a great result. If you don’t consider the percentage points margin of a win key, fair enough. That’s a valid opinion. I’m not calling you a liar for that difference of opinion.

    Premier Icon argee
    Full Member

    Wasn’t there about 15 candidates going in the by-election, rather than the usual 5 or 6, from the numbers the tories got the least votes and percentage in a long time, it’s a marginal seat, if the next general election is 2024 then labour will have a fight to hold on to the seat. The 2017 general election also had the brexit vote issue, hence why we had another GE in 2019 and are now stuck with Johnson!

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    It’s not a “difference of opinion” it is a fact. Labour have done better in Wakefield than they did last Thursday. He is lying. It is not “the best we have had in the constituency”, he is a liar.

    Edit : I’ve just checked and in the majority of elections in the Wakefield constituency Labour has done better than it did last Thursday

    Premier Icon andrewreay
    Full Member

    @Kelvin, I appreciate your efforts.

    If anyone knows of a more pointless thread on the internet, please don’t let me know.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    If anyone knows of a more pointless thread on the internet, please don’t let me know.

    Yes – we are very disappointed by Labour too.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    . To win it by such a big margin is a great result

    It was a very poor result for the Tories, but Labour should be worried that many former voters aren’t coming back to them.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    If anyone knows of a more pointless thread on the internet

    Care to explain why you think it’s pointless? If you have a different point of view, then feel free to post it. Your reluctance to post anything of substance is exactly the thing that makes it pointless.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    If anyone knows of a more pointless thread on the internet, please don’t let me know.

    Whatever you do don’t look at the Boris Johnson thread.

    Everyday the main topic of discussion appears to be how much of a liar Johnson is.

    And no prizes for guessing who one of the main protagonist is.

    The Tories do not appear to have a monopoly on dishonesty and hypocrisy.

    Premier Icon andrewreay
    Full Member

    Care to explain why you think it’s pointless?

    Because someone was valiantly and reasonably trying to point out that a difference of interpretation is not a lie.

    But that valid point of view was rebutted. This just turns the thread into repeated polar ‘argument’ rather than any willingness to consider other relevant and pertinent matters e.g. swing is an alternative voting measure to share.

    This thread is an echo chamber every time I check in. That’s why it’s pointless and why I can’t be bothered to post anything of substance, despite wanting to highlight that Labour are still ahead in the polls and in with a chance of getting power under SKS. Not something they would have achieved three years ago.

    Just saying.

    Premier Icon ernielynch
    Free Member

    This just turns the thread into repeated polar ‘argument’

    Quite. Repeating a false claim won’t eventually make it true.

    Starmer in an article which he himself wrote said “the best we have had in the constituency.” It is pretty clear what he meant by that comment. He meant that it was the best result Labour have had in that constituency.

    That is false. In the overwhelming majority of elections on Wakefield Labour has had a larger share of the vote and/or a larger majority.

    Now if Starmer didn’t actually mean what his comment clearly implied then it still casts him as dishonest. Which is ironic and deeply hypocritical when criticism of Johnson is considered.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Full Member

    But that valid point of view was rebutted. This just turns the thread into repeated polar ‘argument’ rather than any willingness to consider other relevant and pertinent matters e.g.

    So if you post a rebuttal and your opponent doesn’t agree then that’s pointless? You must be fun in an argument if you throw your dummy out of the pram if everyone else doesn’t instantly agree with you. 😄

    despite wanting to highlight that Labour are still ahead in the polls and in with a chance of getting power under SKS.

    Finally. Don’t take offence, but we Starmer-sceptics here have been pointing out for ages that Labour’s lead in the polls is hugely disappointing compare to where it should be (ie 20 points ahead) and not enough to win* a general election. It’s hard to argue against that when the numbers are pretty clear. The fact is that labours aneamic poll lead and more importantly it’s stagnant <40% vote share should be huge cause for alarm for anyone who wants rid of the tories. Yet bizarrely the centrists on here seem to be quite content with that. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    *As in a overall majority.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    This thread gets called an echo chamber and toxic all the time but actually – that is the very definition of the Johnson thread which bizarrely is policed to a narrow shooting range for Johnson’s behavior. Anything else is simply not tolerated. Prams and teddies. Fair enough I understand some posters’ frustration with Starmer not being a formidable opponent.

    In this thread we are least trying to get to grips with what is the wrong direction and right direction for Labour.

    Genuinely I don’t think there’s much of anything to add from the pro-Starmer camp otherwise there would be more folk making a strong case in here.

Viewing 40 posts - 14,681 through 14,720 (of 14,773 total)

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